Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Citizens on Patrol)

[MXD]

I gather that you didn't omit Red Kelly

I must admit that, if you had asked me to name the best player who didn't get ranked by anyone, I probably would've answered Hooley Smith.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Potentially eight retired Hart winners will not make the final 100.

 

[tony d]

Clapper went in on my list as a defenseman. Had him in the 50's. Kelly as a defenseman, had Kelly in my top 20.

 

[ted2019]

I have Busher Jackson at exactly #120.

Busher is #113 on mine.

 

[ted2019]

I did list Keon, but at the tail end.

I guess I could be convinced to push him upwards in Round 2... but it would probably require convincing me of doing the same with Henri Richard, and I have Richard comfortably in the upper half of my Top-120.

No dice on Keon for me.

 

[kruezer]

I gather that you didn't omit Red Kelly

I must admit that, if you had asked me to name the best player who didn't get ranked by anyone, I probably would've answered Hooley Smith.

You’re right Hooley is almost perfectly in the close but no cigar category. Glad to hear he made a list, was one of my last dozen cuts.

 

[steve141]

Frank Nighbor : I set the ceiling at Bobby Clarke, not moving an inch above.

I agree that their peaks are similar, but Nighbor was an elite player for twice as long as Clarke. I have Nighbor ten spots above Clarke.

 

[seventieslord]

Potentially eight retired Hart winners will not make the final 100.

Only eight?

I count 26 retired Hart winners who, based on the discussion in these threads, don't appear to be firmly entrenched in the top 70. I'm guessing 20 Hart winners miss the final list.

 

[VanIslander]

Potentially eight retired Hart winners will not make the final 100.

If my list is any indication: 10 or 11 at least.

But 20+ isn't inconceivable.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these need debate to get into the top 100: St. Louis, Abel, Cowley, Siebert, Joliat, Stewart, Fedorov, Worters, Lindros, Brett Hull and Toe Blake. Max Bentley?

I'm not saying there should be any question, just that some will need a convincing case for some voters.

Key questions: How short was their peak? If you took away their best single season (likely the Hart one, or the season just before it), would they still be in contention?

 

[seventieslord]

If my list is any indication: 10 or 11 at least.

But 20+ isn't inconceivable.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these need debate to get into the top 100: St. Louis, Abel, Cowley, Siebert, Joliat, Stewart, Fedorov, Worters, Lindros, Brett Hull and Toe Blake. Max Bentley?

I'm not saying there should be any question, just that some will need a convincing case for some voters.

Key questions: How short was their peak? If you took away their best single season (likely the Hart one, or the season just before it), would they still be in contention?

Those were all guys I was thinking.

Not to mention many other obvious ones... Theodore, Sedin, Anderson, Burch, Gardiner, Goodfellow, O'Connor, Pratt, Rayner, Rollins all have zero chance of making the list. (I'd add Siebert to this list, too)

In addition to your list, Kennedy and Lach should make it but are by no means guaranteed.

That's 24 Hart winners who could possibly miss the list. 11 definitely will, and probably half of the other 13 will too.

 

[VMBM]

- Is there any case that could be made that Pospisil was better than Martinec?

I think it's a kind of "Vasiliev vs Mikhailov/Maltsev" type of situation. However, if one puts heavy emphasis on the Czechoslovak league, then maybe. After all, 'Pospec's' team Poldi Kladno did win numerous championships, and - if I'm not mistaken - Pospisil was seen as the most important player on that team, despite Milan Novy's scoring (DN28 probably has more information on that). But I think internationally Martinec was the man.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

If my list is any indication: 10 or 11 at least.

I got twelve retired Hart-winners not on my list. Thirteen aren't in the top-100 (i.e.: one is in the 101-120 range. Having said that, I'd have no disappointment if that player came aboard in the 90-100 range).

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these need debate to get into the top 100: St. Louis, Abel, Cowley, Siebert, Joliat, Stewart, Fedorov, Worters, Lindros, Brett Hull and Toe Blake. Max Bentley?

I got Federov seventeen slots higher than the next name in that grouping.

I'm guessing the highest-valued player (among the external consensus) that I left off my list is Cowley. I'm reassured by the fact that I'm not the only one.

So... me and at least one other person left Cowley off. At least one left Dionne off. Probably more than one has left Federov off. It's definitely made me re-think whatever the "must-include" standard should be. Suppose that if you want to court varying perspectives, you should have a fairly relaxed "must-include" standard.

 

[Iceman]

I was sadly a bit hard on goalies, only 16 making the top 100 itself, with a few just outside but I’m hoping some more end up available for voting. It’s easier if you put them up against who the consensus sees as comparables directly. For instance, I had a goaltender who was originally in the 90-100 range but dropped down to 101-120 range and then left off to later find himself at the tail end of 101-120.

The best skaters I left off was Vasiliev and Oates as I remember it, or ar least they were on the list originally but was dropped off last minute.

The big surprise for some might be Gilmour who ended up in the 80’s on my list. Good playoff performer with career numbers and a short but terrific peak. Ron Francis actually made my top 100 as well.

 

[sr edler]

Not to mention many other obvious ones... Theodore, Sedin, Anderson, Burch, Gardiner, Goodfellow, O'Connor, Pratt, Rayner, Rollins all have zero chance of making the list.

I didn't list H. Sedin (perhaps I should have) but outside of his Hart he also won an Art Ross (with 83 ES points), had two 1st All Star selections at C, led the league in assists 3 straight years, and captained his team to two straight Presidents' Trophies and one Cup final, and almost went PPG in the playoffs through his 5 year prime. It's not like he was a bad or average player who had one good year. Sure he had some flaws (suspect defense through his peak years and a bit on the timid side) but a lot of great players had flaws.

 

[bobholly39]

No lists for me.
I got really busy these past few weeks and simply didn't get to dedicate as much time as i would have wanted to to prepare, so decided to hold off on participating. I hope to still be able to follow, and join in on some discussions.

 

[MXD]

I agree that their peaks are similar, but Nighbor was an elite player for twice as long as Clarke. I have Nighbor ten spots above Clarke.

Era concerns + there's a limit to how much credit a player can obtain when playing on an arguably UNDERACHIEVING team when the weakest player on the ice at any given moment is someone like Punch Broadbent or Jack Darragh or Hooley Smith.

As said, Clarke is the ceiling here. There aren't many things I'm budging on -- this is one of them.

 

[ted2019]

I ended up making a numbering error and number 120 was Hugh Lehman, who was left off due to it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I agree that their peaks are similar, but Nighbor was an elite player for twice as long as Clarke. I have Nighbor ten spots above Clarke.

Nighbor had the benefit of playing on the unique Ottawa Arena until 1923, rink with semi-circle ends that facilitated forechecking.

 

[DN28]

I think it's a kind of "Vasiliev vs Mikhailov/Maltsev" type of situation. However, if one puts heavy emphasis on the Czechoslovak league, then maybe. After all, 'Pospec's' team Poldi Kladno did win numerous championships, and - if I'm not mistaken - Pospisil was seen as the most important player on that team, despite Milan Novy's scoring (DN28 probably has more information on that). But I think internationally Martinec was the man.

Yes, I share the impression that Pospisil was the most important player of the Kladno dynasty (1975-1980) as well. At least, that is what the media in 1976 suggested:

...
At Gól, Issue 12, March 18, 1976, You can find summary of the key deciding game of this season´s title – basically “The Final” of 1975-1976 – between SONP Kladno and Tesla Pardubice, 29th round of the season, only 3 rounds were left to play after this one. Pardubice won the title in 1973 and their primary weapon was their famous top line B. Stastny – J. Novak – V. Martinec that often played together even at international level. Jihlava won in 1974 and Kladno won rather comfortably in 1975. Kladno relied heavily on the cohesion of their 1st unit F. Pospisil – F. Kaberle, L. Bauer – M. Novy – E. Novak, as you can see, 4 of 5 players of this unit were regular NT members. Kladno tended to play more defensively (albeit not as much as Jihlava), while Pardubice due to prevalence of high quality offensive players even beyond the 1st line and lack of top blueliners tended to play more offensively (albeit not as much as Slovan Bratislava for instance).

This season was marked as close ongoing battle between forementioned Pardubice and Kladno. They had the same amount of points going into this game and tight intense match-up was expected to happen…

…Which did not. Kladno won in rather dominating fashion 6:2. Stastny-Novak-Martinec struggled to gain possession in the offensive zone and as the game progressed they became increasingly frustrated with the result, leading to some silly penalties. Frantisek Pospisil received the biggest share of credit for shutting down the most dangerous Czechoslovak forward line at the time. Miloslav Charouzd´s observations:

“The quickness of thinking about choosing the best solution of a game situation is quite often more effective than actual skating speed of a hockey player. Especially defenseman, who can capture the most advantageous opportunity for a vertical pass, is highly beneficial everywhere and thus valuable player. Exactly at these moments, Kladno´s defenseman Pospíšil developed quick counter-attacks of his team with remarkable view over the ice in the game with Tesla Pardubice. Particularly fourth goal of Kladno documented in a convincing way his fast mental evaluation of the situation and decision-making. During one of Tesla´s attacks, when quite chaotically and all at the same time Martinec, Jiří Novák and Sekera went for the puck along the boards, Pospíšil brilliantly understood the situation, released himself from all three forchecking rivals, pulled the puck inside in the rink and thus suddenly created great starting position for the counter-attack. He did not rush, neither hesitate anything. He made the decision quickly and accurately. He waited until Eda Novák skated into free space and then [Pospíšil] sent a perfect pass onto the stick of his teammate up to the red line. Kladno´s right wing then finished the next phase of counter-attack not-any-less perfectly – beautiful goal. This and other similar actions confirmed again, that the quickness of thinking and passing has its effective power even in current hockey.”

After the penultimate round, i. e. 31th, Kladno finally secured their defense of the League championship from previous season. Gól wrote on that “František Pospíšil has been dressing up the first-league Kladno´s jersey since 1961-62 season and as a captain of the team has led his boys to two championship titles. He is the soul of the whole collective and he even caused that a series of excellent hockey players grew up next to him.”
View attachment 100225

On a defense of Novy, when he came back to Kladno in 1974-75, the team immediatelly won their first title. On the other side, when Pospisil left in 1978-79 to play his last season in Germany, Kladno immediatelly dipped in the standings, suddenly finishing 4th out of 12 teams after their previous 4 titles in a row.

It´s true that Kladno bounced back right next season (1979-80), when they won their last title with Novy as their only star player in the lineup... but guess who had become the coach of Kladno in the summer of 1979? Yes, Pospisil was appointed as the head coach by then, Kladno grabbed him back the second after he hanged up his skates for good...

Whether Martinec, or Pospisil was better player strictly in the CSSR League is difficult to answer - it´s definitely not clear to me, both were the best players on their teams most of the time. However, I have certainly grown to appreciate Martinec´s league play more now that I´ve found quite a lot of evidence of a) poor 1970s Parbubice´s defensemen where forwards had to do "all the heavy lifting" by themselves, and b) Martinec very solid +/- numbers during his peak that compare well to other star forwards.

Agree that - when international results and award voting is taken into account - Martinec looks like a better player overall.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Having said that, I'll be positively gobsmacked if Lemieux cracks the top 3

If someone put Mario in the top two, I would not argue too much.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I got twelve retired Hart-winners not on my list. Thirteen aren't in the top-100 (i.e.: one is in the 101-120 range. Having said that, I'd have no disappointment if that player came aboard in the 90-100 range).
I got Federov seventeen slots higher than the next name in that grouping.

I'm guessing the highest-valued player (among the external consensus) that I left off my list is Cowley. I'm reassured by the fact that I'm not the only one.

So... me and at least one other person left Cowley off. At least one left Dionne off. Probably more than one has left Federov off. It's definitely made me re-think whatever the "must-include" standard should be. Suppose that if you want to court varying perspectives, you should have a fairly relaxed "must-include" standard.

Nothing to do with a must-include standard.

Hart is the oldest trophy. Just an appreciation of the evolution from counting to evaluating performance.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Regarding the top 4 however, I've also joined the consensus. I have Orr at #2, but I think there is a better case for Orr att #1 than #4.

I could not agree more.

 

[DannyGallivan]

That might sound like a boring/predictable issue to some, but the topic about which I'm really curious as to whether there's a consensus is Crosby vs. Morenz.

They are my number 10 and number 11 (I won't say who is ahead of who...)

 

[ImporterExporter]

Era concerns + there's a limit to how much credit a player can obtain when playing on an arguably UNDERACHIEVING team when the weakest player on the ice at any given moment is someone like Punch Broadbent or Jack Darragh or Hooley Smith.

As said, Clarke is the ceiling here. There aren't many things I'm budging on -- this is one of them.

I have some era concerns with somebody like Russell Bowie when hockey was still VERY primitive and talent nowhere near as developed as it was in the late teens and 1920's. The quality of play in pro hockey was insanely better when Nighbor was playing.

Also, you're saying Ottawa underachieved by winning 4 titles in a 8 year span? I don't get it. At all.

Nighbor is better than Clarke because of postseason play. I have no doubts he was every bit the offensive player Clarke was and as good as Clarke was defensively he's not on Nighbor's level. Very few are.

I don't know why I'm bothering, as you won't budge but figured I'd respond all the same. It's Monday and I'm tired.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Where do people have Max Bentley? Both missed time due to WWII but also had his best years right after WWII, which some people perceive as weak years. Produced A LOT in the playoffs for Toronto, including a few game winners.

number 62.