Top 10 defensemen since 2005 #2

[Gary Nylund]

I like # 2 on that list....Bobby Orr and Anyone??

Yeah that was pretty funny. Though Don Awrey was a perfect "stay at home" partner in some ways for Orr.

Ian Turnbull and Borje Salming in their rookie seasons was one of the best rookie pairings I recall. Infact Turnbull took over for Salming when he was hurt in the 77 playoffs to lead the team to an huge upset over the NY Isles, he scored 5 goals in a game if my memory is correct making Ballard present him with a tea service set. He was very much a huge part of the Leafs during those years. When Leafs obtained David Burrows from Pittsburg for Randy Carlyle some of us Leafs fans thought we had a defence to compete against the Habs big 3 of Savard, Robinson and Lapointe. No doubt about it, Turnbull was just shy of being with the big 3 of Sittler, Mcdonald, and Salming. I remember his weakness was he got out of shape, gained weight, otherwise he may have gone down as one of the Leafs best D to play in a Leaf uniform. He was that talented.

Another little known fact about him was Dennis Potvin and Ian Turnbull were one of the OHL's Ottawa 67's greatest defence tandems.

Yes I believe his record for goals in one game by a d-man still stands, as does his record for most points in one season by a Leaf d-man.

I also remember that off-season fairly well. They made two trades for d-man Burrows and Hutchinson giving up Carlyle, Ferguson and I can't remember what else but it was a lot. The Globe printed a column by some genius who claimed that the Leafs "just traded their way into the Stanley Cup final".

 

[cookie]

Phaneuf can't play defense. Standing in front of your net watching your partner work like a dog isn't playing defense in any way, shape, or form. Especially when you get manhandled like he did against Alex Steen this past season.

Yeah, when you do that it's called chasing the puck and your coach will hate you for it since it leaves the front of the net open. You're making it sound like Alex Steen is some pencil necked nerd you can't swat a fly. Sure Phaneuf screwed up there, but stuff like this happens to every NHL defenseman. Don't discount Alex Steen here. And we'll also forget the fact that he kicked Phaneuf's left foot as well.

McCabe couldn't really play defense either, but he was a superior point producer and capable of logging huge minutes for his team. Something Phaneuf isn't capable of doing without becoming a liability out there.

Here's the thing: Phaneuf is a capable defenseman playing alongside people not named Tomas Kaberle. If Kaberle were his defense partner, DP would likely have more points due to secondary assists, be in his zone far less because there's someone else who can consistently get the puck out of zone, and be more inclined to deliver the big hits because there's someone who can provide support since he'd be out of position.

This is why chemistry is so important. If you are going through partners, how do you develop an understanding that your friend will be able to bail you out? It takes second guessing out of the equation and as a result, you can play a more instinctive game as opposed to a rational, thinking game. Gunnarsson, god bless him, is a really good defenseman... but where will he fit in a cup contender?

Phaneuf is gonna win this one handily on reputation alone, not based on his on ice play or even stats.

His advanced stats say otherwise and I think there's some posts that state this. Yes, his play on ice leaves some questions, but I'd think if he gets a capable partner by his side, those questions will be answered to some degree.

 

[Teeder9]

1 - I never said that
2 - I never said that either

You have reading comprehension issues. One more time then, what I said was simply this:

The claim Salming had nobody good to play with is false.

Context is a beautiful thing. You post a link that says the pairing is the 13th greatest of all time and use it to prop up your argument that Salming had someone good to play with, while leaving out a pretty important piece of information. Salming was by far the better player on that pairing. 7 straight top 5 Norris voting to none at all for Turnbull, 6 straight end of season All-Star teams, to none for Turnbull, 2 top 7 Hart votes for Salming, none for Turnbull. How do you suppose the first season Turnbull doesn't play as much with Salming, although still quite a bit on the pp, he gets -7 and Salming gets +36? It was pretty obvious that Turnbull was very good offensively, but even at that, Salming was better. Defensively, Turnbull makes Karlsson look like Chara.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

2006-vintage McCabe was basically like Calgary-era Phaneuf, but less physically imposing. So yeah, he was better than Phaneuf is now, even if his play fell off a cliff by 2007.

At the same time, he had a bunch of Phaneuf's flaws but even worse. McCabe's skating got horrible as he got older, his brainfarts became more common like bad pinches, "hilarious" own goals, pointless can opener penalties... he was a frustrating player to watch sometimes.

I didn't follow the Leafs as closely then, but I did recall that Beauchemin's stay in Toronto was not that pleasant and most of the sentiment was that we were fortunate to get a good return in a trade. Since he has more than rebounded in Anaheim, I was just wondering what were the factors that could have led to his diminished play in Toronto in retrospect. At least it seems playing with Phaneuf didn't help him.

Ron Wilson's Leafs featured a lot of defensemen pinching to keep the puck in... but very little covering for it. Beauchemin wasn't the only guy guilty of this but bad pinches is what I remember him for most of all.

 

[Teeder9]

Yeah that was pretty funny. Though Don Awrey was a perfect "stay at home" partner in some ways for Orr.



Yes I believe his record for goals in one game by a d-man still stands, as does his record for most points in one season by a Leaf d-man.

I also remember that off-season fairly well. They made two trades for d-man Burrows and Hutchinson giving up Carlyle, Ferguson and I can't remember what else but it was a lot. The Globe printed a column by some genius who claimed that the Leafs "just traded their way into the Stanley Cup final".

Dallas Smith played more with Orr than Awrey did. He was Ted Green's defense partner most of the time

 

[diceman934]

Yeah, when you do that it's called chasing the puck and your coach will hate you for it since it leaves the front of the net open. You're making it sound like Alex Steen is some pencil necked nerd you can't swat a fly. Sure Phaneuf screwed up there, but stuff like this happens to every NHL defenseman. Don't discount Alex Steen here. And we'll also forget the fact that he kicked Phaneuf's left foot as well.

Here's the thing: Phaneuf is a capable defenseman playing alongside people not named Tomas Kaberle. If Kaberle were his defense partner, DP would likely have more points due to secondary assists, be in his zone far less because there's someone else who can consistently get the puck out of zone, and be more inclined to deliver the big hits because there's someone who can provide support since he'd be out of position.

This is why chemistry is so important. If you are going through partners, how do you develop an understanding that your friend will be able to bail you out? It takes second guessing out of the equation and as a result, you can play a more instinctive game as opposed to a rational, thinking game. Gunnarsson, god bless him, is a really good defenseman... but where will he fit in a cup contender?

His advanced stats say otherwise and I think there's some posts that state this. Yes, his play on ice leaves some questions, but I'd think if he gets a capable partner by his side, those questions will be answered to some degree.

Where would Dion fit on a cup contender.....Gunnar is slotted to play 2nd pair in St Louis the same place Dion would play if they traded for him.

What advance stats are you talking about as well as what are they going to tell us. Dion has played with Good D man in Toronto and he pooped the bed with Beauchemin a top pairing D man....before and after... so those questions were answered some just are not looking!

 

[diceman934]

Dallas Smith played more with Orr than Awrey did. He was Ted Green's defense partner most of the time

True and Awrey and Green were tougher and mean as hell...Awrey would elbow everyone and Green would use his stick...

Green is a prime example of live by the sword die by the sword....he has a metal plate in his head as a result of stick swinging incident.

 

[Teeder9]

True and Awrey and Green were tougher and mean as hell...Awrey would elbow everyone and Green would use his stick...

Green could fight pretty well also. I always find it funny how people think it is harder to play now than the 70's. Try rushing the boards against guys like that and complain about hooking and holding like it matters.

 

[New Liskeard]

Green could fight pretty well also. I always find it funny how people think it is harder to play now than the 70's. Try rushing the boards against guys like that and complain about hooking and holding like it matters.

Besides the facts that the players today are much bigger, significantly faster and NHLers of today take much better care of their bodies and their diet than they ever did in the 70's 80's and 90's, sure it was much more difficult playing with the NHLers of the 70's than those of today. That's actually coming from exNHLers, but hey, what do they know?

 

[Teeder9]

Besides the facts that the players today are much bigger, significantly faster and NHLers of today take much better care of their bodies and their diet than they ever did in the 70's 80's and 90's, sure it was much more difficult playing with the NHLers of the 70's than those of today. That's actually coming from exNHLers, but hey, what do they know?

Ya sure, that was exactly the point, not the brutality they showed each other on a nightly basis.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Context is a beautiful thing. You post a link that says the pairing is the 13th greatest of all time and use it to prop up your argument that Salming had someone good to play with, while leaving out a pretty important piece of information. Salming was by far the better player on that pairing. 7 straight top 5 Norris voting to none at all for Turnbull, 6 straight end of season All-Star teams, to none for Turnbull, 2 top 7 Hart votes for Salming, none for Turnbull. How do you suppose the first season Turnbull doesn't play as much with Salming, although still quite a bit on the pp, he gets -7 and Salming gets +36? It was pretty obvious that Turnbull was very good offensively, but even at that, Salming was better. Defensively, Turnbull makes Karlsson look like Chara.

Here (again) is what I posted earlier. Note the bolded part(s). The part you say I left out.

Thanks, I am glad that someone get's it.

Yeah that is a glaring omission, no doubt! These lists should always be taken with a grain of salt. I only mentioned because I just happened to see this list the other day and I figured it might be useful in case someone had never heard of Turnbull. He was nowhere close to the player Salming was of course but still, somewhat underrated IMO. Interesting that his finest moment came when Salming was injured - Toronto scored a mega-upset in game 7 OT against NYI who were on the verge of becoming a dynasty. In the absence of Salming, Turnbull stepped up and actually led the Leafs in playoff scoring with 16 points in 13 games (Sittler was 2nd with 13, Lanny was 3rd with 7). There have been 2 high points in my many years of following the Leafs, that was one.

Again, he was no Salming but he was a fair better then then guys like Gunnarson, Kostka etc.

Before anyone else starts complaining that I am crediting Turnbull with "making Salming look good" or any other such nonsense, please note the parts I bolded above. Thanks!

Which part of what I bolded is unclear?

 

[New Liskeard]

Ya sure, that was exactly the point, not the brutality they showed each other on a nightly basis.

That's alright, its not the easiest concept for some to grasp. I guess the amount of concusions back then were significantly higher? They must be not nearly severe as today with the technology in hockey equipment and the changing of the rules of the game? its quite humorous that the concept of a clutch and grab NHL yielded much more injuries, than of today, with athletes in better shape than they ever have been in the NHL and skating faster today then they ever have before. Ignorance at its finest.

 

[Teeder9]

Here (again) is what I posted earlier. Note the bolded part(s). The part you say I left out.



Which part of what I bolded is unclear?

It's the point of what you are saying. It skews history and we end up with this, that Turnbull was a good player, when in fact he was carried defensively by Salming, and Salming was essentially everything equal to him offensively. Without Salming his career crumbled. If you want to say it's a Bozak comparison where we have no one better at this point in time to play with Kessel, than fine, do that, but don't prop up a one dimensional player like Turnbull because it pulls Salming down to him at the same time. They weren't even close. Salming is one of the greatest defensmen in history and Turnbull is an afterthought, even by a lot of Leaf fans. Fact is, regardless of what you post in rebuttal to me, you are using Salming to further a ridiculous agenda involving Phaneuf. If you can't make a case for him without using an even more ridiculous example, maybe vote for Luke Schenn instead.

 

[Teeder9]

That's alright, its not the easiest concept for some to grasp. I guess the amount of concusions back then were significantly higher? They must be not nearly severe as today with the technology in hockey equipment and the changing of the rules of the game? its quite humorous that the concept of a clutch and grab NHL yielded much more injuries, than of today, with athletes in better shape than they ever have been in the NHL and skating faster today then they ever have before. Ignorance at its finest.

What are you even trying to say? That 70's era NHL was softer than today? That you regret life and the mistakes you made? you're hungry? What? I'm not sure if there were more concussions back then, and neither are you, but I have to think with the amount of helmets that weren't worn, it would be more than probable injuries would occur at a higher number than today with all the great technology we have. Wouldn't you, or is the argument anything you feel like making it post to post?

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's the point of what you are saying. It skews history and we end up with this, that Turnbull was a good player, when in fact he was carried defensively by Salming, and Salming was essentially everything equal to him offensively. Without Salming his career crumbled. If you want to say it's a Bozak comparison where we have no one better at this point in time to play with Kessel, than fine, do that, but don't prop up a one dimensional player like Turnbull because it pulls Salming down to him at the same time. They weren't even close. Salming is one of the greatest defensmen in history and Turnbull is an afterthought, even by a lot of Leaf fans. Fact is, regardless of what you post in rebuttal to me, you are using Salming to further a ridiculous agenda involving Phaneuf. If you can't make a case for him without using an even more ridiculous example, maybe vote for Luke Schenn instead.

I guess you somehow missed the point. You seem to think that because Salming was awesome that means that Turnbull was worthless. Fact is, when Salming went down in 78 Turnbull played the best hockey of his life. Trust me, he was something to behold.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What are you even trying to say? That 70's era NHL was softer than today? That you regret life and the mistakes you made? you're hungry? What? I'm not sure if there were more concussions back then, and neither are you, but I have to think with the amount of helmets that weren't worn, it would be more than probable injuries would occur at a higher number than today with all the great technology we have. Wouldn't you, or is the argument anything you feel like making it post to post?

Could be, no way to know for sure. On one hand, players today are bigger, faster, stronger etc. which I would guess more than compensates for the fact that today helmets are the norm. On the other hand, I'm sure there were many concussions back in the day that went unreported/undiscovered.

Just shake hands and pretend to be friends IMO.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I guess you somehow missed the point. You seem to think that because Salming was awesome that means that Turnbull was worthless. Fact is, when Salming went down in 78 Turnbull played the best hockey of his life. Trust me, he was something to behold.

You have to wonder how many people here actually saw Turnbull play, you'd think some people thought he was Cody Franson defensively. I will say one thing for all the Jake Gardiner fans here, he was much more talented than Gardiner is. He could fight, he was strong, he could rush the puck, he was as you said quite the player to behold at his best, and I think he still has the record for the highest plus in plus minus in Leafs history. If he were playing today, he might even be our best defenceman.

 

[Teeder9]

I guess you somehow missed the point. You seem to think that because Salming was awesome that means that Turnbull was worthless. Fact is, when Salming went down in 78 Turnbull played the best hockey of his life. Trust me, he was something to behold.

Well aware. I saw the series. I also saw how everyone on the team turned the injury into a full out take no prisoners heart and soul beating, and how Kennedy, sittler, and MacDonald were as important and/or even more important to those wins. I also saw the Habs destroy them the next series. Fact is, I'm not saying he was terrible, I'm saying you are equating him to being something he is not by using Salming as a means to your end. He needed Salming. Salming needed anyone. There is a big difference between the two

 

[Teeder9]

Could be, no way to know for sure. On one hand, players today are bigger, faster, stronger etc. which I would guess more than compensates for the fact that today helmets are the norm. On the other hand, I'm sure there were many concussions back in the day that went unreported/undiscovered.

Just shake hands and pretend to be friends IMO.

Unreported would be the word to use and likely all the way to the 90's. Any way you want to word it however, the 70's was a brutal time to play hockey in the NHL, wherein today, you get suspended for hitting a player side on if they aren't looking, and back then you got high 5'd by the ref for a good hit. It's a stark difference and the reality of it compared to today doesn't leave much to discuss in that respect. Not even sure how equipment and skating faster with bigger bodies matter since it's pretty much relative to the era.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well aware. I saw the series. I also saw how everyone on the team turned the injury into a full out take no prisoners heart and soul beating, and how Kennedy, sittler, and MacDonald were as important and/or even more important to those wins. I also saw the Habs destroy them the next series. Fact is, I'm not saying he was terrible, I'm saying you are equating him to being something he is not by using Salming as a means to your end. He needed Salming. Salming needed anyone. There is a big difference between the two

I don't recall anyone named Kennedy playing for us that year. Enlighten me.

Of course there's a big difference between the two. I said that repeatedly, in bold.

 

[hockeygeek]

I find it sad that all the guys at the top of this list are/were whipping boys for Leaf fans. We love to hate our best players. That list explains a lot about our recent struggles also

 

[Teeder9]

I don't recall anyone named Kennedy playing for us that year. Enlighten me.

Of course there's a big difference between the two. I said that repeatedly, in bold.

Sorry, Ferguson.

 

[Teeder9]

I find it sad that all the guys at the top of this list are/were whipping boys for Leaf fans. We love to hate our best players. That list explains a lot about our recent struggles also

We love to hate our failures, and at the same time love to prop them up against our winners

 

[ponder]

Sweet baby Jesus, get a look at the names on that list. Then you wonder why we never go anywhere.

Agreed! On the bright side, I do think Rielly has the potential to be great, Gards could be very good, and Finn and Percy could both be solid. So hopefully, in a few years, this list won't look SO pathetic!

As for the question, very close between McCabe and Phaneuf. Both guys had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses, makes them tough to compare. Watched lots of McCabe back in the day, but it was close to a decade ago when he was in his prime, with a time gap like that it's hard to feel confident calling him better or worse than a guy who he was pretty close to talent-wise. So, I'll abstain from voting, but it's definitely gotta be one of Phaneuf or McCabe.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Looking at this list, Aki Berg could have made it.