Recalled/Assigned: Tootoo

[The Zetterberg Era]

He is in the same category as the players on that list. Those guys got more of an opportunity than Tootoo has with Detroit, and it shows. Look at him in NSH, he can be effective like the people I mentioned.

He was a better fit in Nashville for sure, although he got the scratch treatment a decent amount there as well. But stand by what I said he wasn't better even there where he fit in and the fan-base history with him made him an automatic play most night.

Not even in the same zip code as Shaw, Bickell, Kelly, and Clifford.
Substantially worse in my opinion Paille who is one of the better fourth liners in the league and absolutely one of the best pk guys. Keep in mind he was a 20th pick it shows up a lot in his tool box. Really Shaw, Kelly, Clifford and Paille are the only ones close to his size and they are better.
Nolan and King are still developing but yeah I see a better end product. Thornton is a much better fighter and has been a leader in the Bruins locker room.

But also look at this

Andrew Shaw 5'10 180 lbs (substantially better however don't think anybody would argue that)
Brandon Bollig 6'3" 215 lbs (As mentioned I like Tootoo more than him, but he does take on legit heavies)
Bryan Bickell 6'4" 223
Kyle Clifford 6'2" 208 (again substantially better though even if closer in size)
Jordan Nolan 6'3" 227 lbs
Dwight King 6'3" 234 lbs
Daniel Paille 6'0" 200 lbs
Chris Kelly 6'0 198 lbs
Shawn Thornton 6'2" 217 lbs
Kevin Westgarth 6'4" 234 lbs
Jordin Tootoo 5'9" 195 lbs

So he is a stocky guy, but a part of Tootoo's problem has always been his greatest supporters view him as a legitimate heavy. He just simply isn't he plays the game hard but every guy you listed that is close to his size (some could argue about Paille but I think they are crazy) are substantially better hockey players than him.

I believe Jordin Tootoo has NHL talent, with the right system, coach and role he could maybe still make an impact. But he plays the kind of role that you just kind of disappear from. He isn't the kind of fighter people like to make him out to be and even while solidly put together and good for a couple big hits a week he just isn't the player I read about so often. He isn't this mean take no prisoners nobody can touch our guy, I will get you for that or the ferocious forechecking animal people write and talk about. He is a solid energy guy, fans always like him, and he will handle himself well against middleweights. But guys like that often find their way out of the league a little quicker than you thought they would, we will see if he can push back I hope he can. But I think he is going to lose at least three years off his career based on the fact he never learned how to pk.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I really think Florida should go after him or one of the other non-traditional markets, much like Nashville they will really like him. He would help sell tickets and quite frankly some of the lesser teams from those areas would likely have a better role for him.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

unless we're lying to ourselves or are clueless, detroit witout tootoo dosent even have a featherweight in our lineup

yes tootoo is not a heavy weight but thats as much a knock on him as saying abdelkader isnt a 40 goal scorer, that being it dosent matter

his role, again his ole, is to create energy and he does hat better then everyone on our team incld datsyuk, zetterbrg, franze and kronwall combined

he is tenacious, he hits, he forces dmen to keep their head up. he isnt afraid to go into the dirty areas unlike so many of our current lineup and he can and does score those traditional "garbage" goals(cleary goals). he plays with energy and hustle. I know so many peole love the Sportscentre top ten goals but their is so much more to winning then just slick puck-handling datsyuks

are their better players who play that same role then tootoo, absolutely but NONE of them currently reside in Detroit

are their better players who play the same role as Frnzen, Kronwall, Howard, datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Alffie? absolutely but none of them play for Detroit

he has a role and provides an elelment of the game that is ESSENTIAL to win that we so despertely lack

 

[Bench]

he has a role and provides an elelment of the game that is ESSENTIAL to win that we so despertely lack

That's one opinion. You're not alone in that opinion, even at the NHL level, but it's not as in stone as you're making it out to be.

This is particularly true for Red Wings fans, who have witnessed "soft" teams lead by softies like Lidstrom and Zetterberg win Cups. You might get more traction among other fanbases, but around these parts, you're talking to folks who have seen toughness from energy players be wholly unnecessary to success.

 

[sepster]

None of the Cup winning teams were as soft as this group. Even the '08 group (which was the "softest" of the group) had Draper, Drake, McCarty, Maltby, Chelios, Stuart, and Lilja on the roster and playing during the playoffs.

You can claim that the Wings didn't have a goon in the lineup during their Cup runs, but to say the teams were soft and didn't have players willing, and capable, of pushing back when challenged is just plain incorrect.

There is no one on this current team that is willing to push back when challenged, and that's embarrassing.

 

[fimoknete]

None of the Cup winning teams were as soft as this group. Even the '08 group (which was the "softest" of the group) had Draper, Drake, McCarty, Maltby, Chelios, Stuart, and Lilja on the roster and playing during the playoffs.

You can claim that the Wings didn't have a goon in the lineup during their Cup runs, but to say the teams were soft and didn't have players willing, and capable, of pushing back when challenged is just plain incorrect.

There is no one on this current team that is willing to push back when challenged, and that's embarrassing.

you are missing the point that draper, mccarty and maltby could play hockey as well. sure they were agravssive but they could score hat tricks as well and score as a line.
so i dont need a tootoo when i have a mccarty or draper. we will see with how many rings tootoo will retire compared to drapers 4.

but when i compare tootoo with no player at all then tootoo looks better all of a sudden.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

That's one opinion. You're not alone in that opinion, even at the NHL level, but it's not as in stone as you're making it out to be.

This is particularly true for Red Wings fans, who have witnessed "soft" teams lead by softies like Lidstrom and Zetterberg win Cups. You might get more traction among other fanbases, but around these parts, you're talking to folks who have seen toughness from energy players be wholly unnecessary to success.

we absolutely did have toughness in our lineup during our cup wins

from dirty buggers like shanhan(who was tough as nails as well), hull, chelios, holmstrom etc

to tough guys like mccarty, downey,

to heart and soul guys like drake, maltby, draper, YZERMAN

the problem is red wing fans ONLY want to think of the DRW as lidstrom, datsyuk and zetterberg

its not my opinion its fact, look at the cup winner each and every year and every single one of them has those sorts of players with those sorts of roles on their team

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

his role, again his ole, is to create energy and he does hat better then everyone on our team incld datsyuk, zetterbrg, franze and kronwall combined

he is tenacious, he hits, he forces dmen to keep their head up. he isnt afraid to go into the dirty areas unlike so many of our current lineup and he can and does score those traditional "garbage" goals(cleary goals). he plays with energy and hustle. I know so many peole love the Sportscentre top ten goals but their is so much more to winning then just slick puck-handling datsyuks

are their better players who play that same role then tootoo, absolutely but NONE of them currently reside in Detroit

are their better players who play the same role as Frnzen, Kronwall, Howard, datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Alffie? absolutely but none of them play for Detroit

he has a role and provides an elelment of the game that is ESSENTIAL to win that we so despertely lack

1st Bold.) Do they? I mean seriously do they feed off Tootoo? I haven't seen it, you might at home but there is no evidence that they get super jacked off anything Tootoo does. Now maybe that is on them, but if it doesn't spark the 20 guys next to him than a big part of this argument is null and void.

2nd.) He goes to the dirty areas, really his better part is in the corner on the cycle where he uses his speed to get out of the corner. But these dirty goals, he has scored 3 goals in 50 games in a Red Wings jersey, has 4 in his 62 games in the organization, that is right just one goal in 12 games on the highest scoring team in the AHL. His high water mark is 17 goals as a professional between Milwaukee and Nashville in 2005-06. He went over the 10 goal mark once in 2007-08 with 11. Really his 30 point season before coming here is attributed to a huge spike in assists not dirty goals. 49 goals in 536 NHL games, 24 goals in 112 AHL games. Sorry he isn't scoring many dirty goals.

NHL goal rate of .091 per game, AHL rate of .21 per game.

So if he plays every game of an 82 game season you can expect 7 of those dirty goals, likely actually a couple good ones, so probably 5 over a total season. One of his four I can think of in the Detroit organization was a high tip in the slot while circling out of a corner cycle, it wasn't ugly. Even if all of his goals are dirty gritty goals he doesn't score a lot of them, he never has in any professional league.

By the way his AHL goal rate goes up in the playoffs as he had one big run there, his NHL rate actually drops even a little more.

3rd.) We might lack some of what he provides, but he needs to provide more of it while being a better player elsewhere. Some nastiness is required but Tootoo doesn't make up for that and really it would be better to get someone that provides more of it while having the trust of the coaching staff and being a more total functioning pro. Tootoo goes out and charges people for six minutes, maybe once a month it does something for us, once a month it also gets the other team going and we get pounded for it. Just don't see this game, it is essential they compete for pucks and play hard, Tootoo isn't the guy that makes that happen even if a lot of people want him to be.

 

[SoupGuru]

It used to be that when people would call the Wings soft we could say "Are you kidding? We knock people around in the corners and can bloody some noses on the way to the net. Sure, maybe we don't fight or push too much in scrums, but we will out-hit you until the whistle blows."

We're missing that. We used to battle. We used to move people. We used to get bloody.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

By the way I think Tootoo playing with Bertuzzi and Sheahan is a good opportunity for him. Sheahan will help him on the forecheck and they have some talent and big guys if he wants to be a disturber. One of his better lines in his stay here in terms of fit tonight.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

NO ONE is saying Jordin Tootoo is a heavyweight, or Jordin Tootoo is an offensive savior. He makes a fourth or even third line legit though, and that is what we need. A line of Abby-Helm-Tootoo would create HELL for opponents, would it not?

Weiss-Datsyuk-Bert
Franzen-Z-Nyquist
Tatar-Andy-Alfie/Miller
Abby-Helm-Tootoo/Miller

Assuming someone would be injured here and there but seriously. Give Weiss some offensive help. We saw what the second line was capable of. Tatar and Andy have great chemistry. That fourth line can hit, score, and create hell.

 

[sepster]

you are missing the point that draper, mccarty and maltby could play hockey as well. sure they were agravssive but they could score hat tricks as well and score as a line.
so i dont need a tootoo when i have a mccarty or draper. we will see with how many rings tootoo will retire compared to drapers 4.

but when i compare tootoo with no player at all then tootoo looks better all of a sudden.

I'm not missing anything. I didn't say Tootoo was the answer to our problems, nor was I really referring to Tootoo at all. I was addressing the claim that the Wings have won Cups in the past with soft teams. That is absolutely false.

Concerning Tootoo, I'll take him on this team because there is not one player in the organization that even approaches a McCarty, Lapointe or Maltby, let alone a Chelios or Shanahan. This team is as soft as warm butter and they are going to continue to be pretenders until that is addressed.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Think the bigger problem is still skill over this other element. We could use a whole lot more of both, especially on the back-end.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Think the bigger problem is still skill over this other element. We could use a whole lot more of both, especially on the back-end.

i am going to agree with you on this

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

their is no pont debating whether tootoo is better at his role compared to other guys around the league, no more then asking if datsyuk is btter at his role then sidney crosby

the issue is whether he is better at his role then some of our oher depth forwards are at their roles such as cleary sammy, bert, andersson and whether his role and talent isunique to our team and adds an element we dont already have in spades

i believe their are better energy/tough guys in the league then tootoo and would gladly trade tootoo for any one of them

however i believe their are no better energy/tough guys on our current team that tootoo and that his role, his type of player role, is part of the fabric required to win in the national hockey league

 

[Chance on Chance]

It used to be that when people would call the Wings soft we could say "Are you kidding? We knock people around in the corners and can bloody some noses on the way to the net. Sure, maybe we don't fight or push too much in scrums, but we will out-hit you until the whistle blows."

We're missing that. We used to battle. We used to move people. We used to get bloody.

And that's what I miss. I would at least like to see a tough 4th line

 

[sepster]

its not my opinion its fact, look at the cup winner each and every year and every single one of them has those sorts of players with those sorts of roles on their team

I've mentioned it before, teams always talk about being "built for the playoffs" and they are never, NEVER saying that meaning they need to go all skill. That sentiment is ALWAYS with the idea that a team needs to be tough and hard to play against in a 7 game series.

The change in direction that the Wings express from 5:31 to 8:30 is the same change they need to make now.



"After years of building a finesse team that FAILED in the playoffs, Detroit's brain trust decided to make a change."

I don't believe that it is a coincidence that the blueprint Scotty Bowman used to build Cup teams in Detroit is the same blueprint that Chicago is using now. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that Detroit has steadily declined since Bowman left and the Wings have gotten softer.

 

[fimoknete]

i guess we are confusing here tough player with talent free player..... i would never trade for abdelkader to win a cup. nor would i do for tootoo

 

[sepster]

Well, I would ask who on this current roster plays a tough game?

I blame all of this on Babcock. Why, in his perfect world, does he play Tatar and Nyquist like 4th line grinders, while Cleary and Abdelkader twirl around like they're skating in the Ice Capades is so ass-backwards its ridiculous.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't believe that it is a coincidence that the blueprint Scotty Bowman used to build Cup teams in Detroit is the same blueprint that Chicago is using now. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that Detroit has steadily declined since Bowman left and the Wings have gotten softer.

Bowman goes wherever the next great team is, has since his failed experiment with total power in Buffalo. Pens, Wings, Hawks, it isn't like we didn't know all those teams were directly on the cusp when he got there. Was it Hossa and Kopecky that provided the snarl to Chicago. Virtually all of their physicality came from Tallon draft picks and trades.

The same Bowman that made priority one trading Steve Yzerman when he first got the job, thank God they limited his power in the front office from day one in a shared three headed Co-GM system with Devellano and Holland. Please, he is the greatest coach of all-time, he is not some great front office type. I do think Babcock misses bouncing ideas off of him.

 

[Goalie guy]

Well I will be damned, look at Toots in there checking and making scoring chances happen!!! but ya he is no good and this team does not need a player like him!

 

[bababooeyII]

Bowman goes wherever the next great team is, has since his failed experiment with total power in Buffalo. Pens, Wings, Hawks, it isn't like we didn't know all those teams were directly on the cusp when he got there. Was it Hossa and Kopecky that provided the snarl to Chicago. Virtually all of their physicality came from Tallon draft picks and trades.

The same Bowman that made priority one trading Steve Yzerman when he first got the job, thank God they limited his power in the front office from day one in a shared three headed Co-GM system with Devellano and Holland. Please, he is the greatest coach of all-time, he is not some great front office type. I do think Babcock misses bouncing ideas off of him.

And Jimmy Devellano and Bryan Murray were the GM's that built the foundation that took us to multiple Cups throughout the 90's and into early 2000's. Sure there was tweaking obviously by Bowman and Holland, but the foundation was already built. The same is true for Chicago right now with the 2 Stan Bowman's. That doesn't take away from the fact that they're doing a great job managing the roster and adding pieces that fit. As for Bowman wanting to trade Yzerman, that was leaked so that Yzerman would finally buy into Bowman's system and play defense. It was a power grab, which Bowman lost.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And Jimmy Devellano and Bryan Murray were the GM's that built the foundation that took us to multiple Cups throughout the 90's and into early 2000's. Sure there was tweaking obviously by Bowman and Holland, but the foundation was already built. The same is true for Chicago right now with the 2 Stan Bowman's. That doesn't take away from the fact that they're doing a great job managing the roster and adding pieces that fit. As for Bowman wanting to trade Yzerman, that was leaked so that Yzerman would finally buy into Bowman's system and play defense. It was a power grab, which Bowman lost.

You're ignoring the fact Holland was the Director of Amateur scouting starting in 1987-88 and was in charge of the draft. He also hired Hakan Andersson (Hakan was recommended by Rockstrom) and Jim Nill in terms of their placement in the organization.

Bowman wasn't completely bluffing, they agreed in principle to the trade only to have Devellano, Holland and Ilitch kill it depending on which story you believe could have been any of them, but Devellano refused to send the official paperwork or had it pulled in time. But Bowman was very much okay with shipping him to Ottawa, Yzerman might have bought in afterwards but a part of that is the way that backfired severely limited Bowman's power in the organization more than likely. He never had full control and really the first thing he bullied them into they got cold feet on and overruled him. Shanahan and Larionov were certainly Bowman endorsed moves, of course Holland also liked them in the case of Devellano I think he was likely against the moving of Primeau but they had endured a terrible negotiation and the other two co-gm's likely won out.

But some of the point is how do you think Holland gained full control? It wasn't because his ideas and inputs were not going well and his success as the director of amateur scouting and the guys he hired around him had a huge impact.

Bowman is very good at identifying the core of a hockey team he wants to be involved with. The funny part being the only time he had ultimate control and went to a team that might have had the best line in hockey, he couldn't find the other pieces or hire the right people in Buffalo.

Still he is the greatest hockey coach ever, but the ultimate personnel credit some give him is a little mystifying for me. Very good at picking the organization you should be involved with, one of the greatest at that in the history of sports.

 

[14ari13]

So Tootoo sent down. Stupid

 

[Henkka]

So Tootoo sent down. Stupid

Other option was Glendening. They kept the kids up and playing.

Still stupid?