Confirmed with Link: Tomas Plekanec (50% Retained) + Kyle Baun to Maple Leafs for 2018 2nd Rd Pick, Rychel, Valiev

[417]

That's definitely in the realm of possibility. But DLR still needs to increase his offense a bit before getting to washed up Plekanec level. Yeah I know, that's pretty sad.

2017-18

Tomas Plekanec (with Habs)

6 goals + 18 assists for 24pts in 60 games
TOI/g: 16:18

Jacob de la Rose

4 goals + 8 assists for 12pts in 55 games
TOI/g: 11:51

I think DLR's offense is already at least on part with a washed up Plekanec level...

 

[Deebs]

It's been 6-7-8yrs since Plekanec was his prime...

DLR doesn't have to replace THAT Plekanec...he just needs to replace the Plekanec of the last 2yrs.

Pretty much any player can do that

Exactly. We're not replacing prime Pleky, we're replacing over the hill, terrible Pleky and DLR can do that as a #4C

 

[Ozmodiar]

DLR just needs to be better than the Plekanec of the last 2yrs, and that's easy.

Right, "easy" to play vs the opposition's top lines while have a positive + / - on a terrible team that had other forwards at around -30. He also manage a EVP/60 mins that was on par with other players like Danault and Bozak. Easy-peezy. Go do it, Rosie. lol

It's been 6-7-8yrs since Plekanec was his prime...

Prime Plekanec was a 55 to 70pt 2way center , no one expects DLR to do that...

2015: 60 points ... that's not 6-7-8 years ago
2016: 54 points

I'm guessing you predicted his decline 6 years ago, and have been doubling down ever since.

Your assessment of the usage of centers is way off. Anyone watching the team during the DD years knows it was either he or Chucky at center. When Chucky played, DD took on a tertiary role.
- when AG got his 11 game stint with Max, DD took a back seat
- when AG got the nod to being the season at center, DD accepted his role on the wing. It didn't last.
- when DD was injury at season's end (foot), Chucky was given a chance.
It was always DD or AG. Anyone who thinks otherwise wasn't watching or has no credibility.

It could be argued Pleks took time from Eller. Eller could have taken over from Pleks instead of being traded to Washington.

 

[417]

Right, "easy" to play vs the opposition's top lines while have a positive + / - on a terrible team that had other forwards at around -30. He also manage a EVP/60 mins that was on par with other players like Danault and Bozak. Easy-peezy. Go do it, Rosie. lol

Glad we agree

2015: 60 points ... that's not 6-7-8 years ago
2016: 54 points

If you actually think that was prime Plekanec...then I don't know what to say.

Plekanec of 2015-2016 isn't close to being as good as the Plekanec of 2010-2011.

I'm guessing you predicted his decline 6 years ago, and have been doubling down ever since.

Actually no - just a false narrative conjured up by those who argued trading Plekanec 4-5yrs ago was a mistake when I was saying that was the time to cash in on his value.

Your assessment of the usage of centers is way off. Anyone watching the team during the DD years knows it was either he or Chucky at center. When Chucky played, DD took on a tertiary role.
- when AG got his 11 game stint with Max, DD took a back seat
- when AG got the nod to being the season at center, DD accepted his role on the wing. It didn't last.
- when DD was injury at season's end (foot), Chucky was given a chance.
It was always DD or AG. Anyone who thinks otherwise wasn't watching or has no credibility.

Well that's great and all...but it's incorrect.

Under Michel Therrien, from 2012 to 2016, here is the usage of Plekanec, Desharnais, Galchenyuk and Eller in total TOI.

Tomas Plekanec: 6,906 mins 58 secs
David Desharnais: 5,010 mins 11 secs
Lars Eller: 4,309 mins 58 secs
*Alex Galchenyuk: 5,146 mins 22 secs

*the majority of those minutes were as a winger and not center.

So you can repeat the false narrative that DD was the one blocking Galchenyuk...but the truth is, Plekanec played almost 2000 all purpose minutes more than any other center on this team.

It could be argued Pleks took time from Eller. Eller could have taken over from Pleks instead of being traded to Washington.

Not *could*...it was indeed the case.

BOTH Plekanec AND Desharnais blocked Galchenyuk and Eller during Therrien's tenure as head coach.

I'm not sure how you can deny that the player who BY FAR played more than ANY OTHER player on this team, doensn't somehow factor into all of this;

 

[Ozmodiar]

Under Michel Therrien, from 2012 to 2016, here is the usage of Plekanec, Desharnais, Galchenyuk and Eller in total TOI.

Tomas Plekanec: 6,906 mins 58 secs
David Desharnais: 5,010 mins 11 secs
Lars Eller: 4,309 mins 58 secs
*Alex Galchenyuk: 5,146 mins 22 secs

*the majority of those minutes were as a winger and not center.

Simply gathering TOI totals, eh?
It's as if you don't realize that not all players have the same role on a hockey team. Their skillsets are used in different situations to help the team win. Some players play a defensive role, to shut down the opposition's top line, while others are used to take advantage of offensive situations (zone starts, linemates, matchups, PP time). This isn't a ball hockey league.

Take a look at your TOI list and tell me which of the 3 has a skillset most similar to Galchenyuk. Your answer is the guy who was impeding his development.

You can also dig deeper and look at PPTOI, and again, tell me which player got the most opportunities there instead of Galchenyuk.

 

[417]

Simply gathering TOI totals, eh?

That's right...what's wrong with that?

It's as if you don't realize that not all players have the same role on a hockey team. Their skillsets are used in different situations to help the team win. Some players play a defensive role, to shut down the opposition's top line, while others are used to take advantage of offensive situations (zone starts, linemates, matchups, PP time). This isn't a ball hockey league.

Thanks...until this very moment, I thought the NHL was a ball hockey league

Take a look at your TOI list and tell me which of the 3 has a skillset most similar to Galchenyuk. Your answer is the guy who was impeding his development.

This makes no sense...Desharnais did block Galchenyuk his first 2 or 3 yrs, I agree with that. But after that, Desharnais icetime significantly reduced and Plekanec was playing the majority of the offensive minutes with out best wingers.

You can also dig deeper and look at PPTOI, and again, tell me which player got the most opportunities there instead of Galchenyuk.

Plekanec

PP TOI: 770 mins 45 secs
PP TOI/g: 2 mins 5 secs

Desharnais

PP TOI: 740 mins 12 secs
PP TOI/g: 2 mins 26 secs

Galchenyuk

PP TOI: 709 mins 16 secs
PP TOI/g: 2 mins 7 secs

Anything else?

 

[Ozmodiar]

This makes no sense...Desharnais did block Galchenyuk his first 2 or 3 yrs, I agree with that. But after that, Desharnais icetime significantly reduced and Plekanec was playing the majority of the offensive minutes with out best wingers.

DD played with Max for most of Galchenyuk's first 3 seasons. When AG got a taste at center, DD moved to the wing. That's what impeded his development.

After that, when they realized DD wasn't effective, Pleks did so for 1 season (2015-16, mostly in the first couple months when they were one of the highest scoring lines in the NHL), then Danault after that.

Again, i don't think you recognize the common skillsets to see who Chucky should have take over from. Not sure where you were from 2012-2015 when everyone was clamouring for less DD and more Galchenyuk.

 

[417]

DD played with Max for most of Galchenyuk's first 3 seasons. When AG got a taste at center, DD moved to the wing. That's what impeded his development.

After that, when they realized DD wasn't effective, Pleks did so for 1 season (2015-16, mostly in the first couple months when they were one of the highest scoring lines in the NHL), then Danault after that.

That's not necessarily true...

in 2014-15 - after the Habs acquired Tomas Vanek, Plekanec spent time centering Pacioretty and/or Vanek on separate lines...Galchenyuk never got an opportunity with either or.

in 2015-16 - Plekanec started off hot with Pacioretty & Gallagher, he had 24pts in his first 25 games, then his production and play dropped off a cliff...yet he continued to center our best wingers until very late in the year, and WEEKS after DD's injury, when Galchenyuk finally got an opportunity with Pacioretty.

Again, i don't think you recognize the common skillsets to see who Chucky should have take over from. Not sure where you were from 2012-2015 when everyone was clamouring for less DD and more Galchenyuk.

Well DD played less and less from 2012 to 2015...Plekanec's icetime remained steady and he played quite a bit with Pacioretty and/or Gallagher or Vanek (i.e.) our best wingers.

As I said at the very beginning of our debate...BOTH Desharnais AND Plekanec blocked Galchenyuk and Eller during Therrien's tenure.

 

[scrubadam]

Sure...initially, yes, I agree..

Galchenyuk was a raw rookie and easing him in made sense.

But as time wore on, as the Habs got eliminated in the playoffs by teams I found inferior overall (Sens, Rags, Bolts)...the team should of came to the conclusion that we just weren't good enough down the middle with Plekanec/Desharnais leading the charge.

By year 3, it was clear as day they weren't good enough.

That's when they should of changed direction, given Galchenyuk and Eller more responsibilities.

Instead...they doubled up on what wasn't working and marginalized Galchenyuk and Eller in favor of players who had maxed out.

Short sighted

I agree with after year 3 changes should of been made. Thats when the results became fleeting.

Up until then though the team was winning and its hard to argue against sucsess.

Will be interesting to see where Pleks winds up and how he does. I dont think he is ciming back here. Do the leafs resign him ? They will probably lose Bozak and will be short on vets.

 

[Habs Halifax]

2017-18

Tomas Plekanec (with Habs)

6 goals + 18 assists for 24pts in 60 games
TOI/g: 16:18

Jacob de la Rose

4 goals + 8 assists for 12pts in 55 games
TOI/g: 11:51

I think DLR's offense is already at least on part with a washed up Plekanec level...

DLR clearly got better as his opportunity increased as well! His progression is directly related to when we traded Pleky. The more oppertunity we gave DLR, the better he got. He is a big body that can skate and he plays well at both ends of the ice. Only thing holding him back is he is limited offensively. Reminds me of Eller.

 

[417]

I agree with after year 3 changes should of been made. Thats when the results became fleeting.

Up until then though the team was winning and its hard to argue against sucsess.

Will be interesting to see where Pleks winds up and how he does. I dont think he is ciming back here. Do the leafs resign him ? They will probably lose Bozak and will be short on vets.

It's npt hard to argue at all...I argued at the time and results just reinforced that, the team wasn't successful.

 

[scrubadam]

It's npt hard to argue at all...I argued at the time and results just reinforced that, the team wasn't successful.

You dont consider 2012 to 2015 a good run ? Sure the team didnt win a cup not many did. But finishing 2nd in the league and making an ECF was pretty good. If you play DD or Pleks less maybe the team doesnt do that.

By year 4 DD and Pleks were done pr declining and it was time to stop relying on them so much and it took MT a season and a half to long to realize it. But i wouldnt trade those years for some extra goals or points from AG or Eller. Those were fun years where the team was on top of the NHL and you had hope you would watch a few rounds of playoff hockey.

Now we suffer but its on a smaller scale saying CHI should of traded kane and towes because they suck now so they dont win their 3rd cup. Again smaller scale since we dont have a cup but just an analogy to show that sometimes the sacrafices you make to win come back to bite you in the butt.

 

[417]

You dont consider 2012 to 2015 a good run ? Sure the team didnt win a cup not many did. But finishing 2nd in the league and making an ECF was pretty good. If you play DD or Pleks less maybe the team doesnt do that.

No I don't consider it successful because the team ultimately was critically flawed, Plekanec/DD wasn't good enough to compete then. Period.

The team rode the back of Price as far as he could take them but when they met teams who nullified that advantage, they had no answer down the middle

By year 4 DD and Pleks were done pr declining and it was time to stop relying on them so much and it took MT a season and a half to long to realize it. But i wouldnt trade those years for some extra goals or points from AG or Eller. Those were fun years where the team was on top of the NHL and you had hope you would watch a few rounds of playoff hockey.

I would have traded that fleeting "success" not for a couple of more goals and points from Galchenyuk and Eller.

But for their development...I think we'd be in an entirely different situation today had that happened.

The team Gaines NOTHING from using them the way they did, they just superficially inflated Plekanec's value which ultimately resulted in him signing an awful extension not too long after.

The only person who benefitted was Plekanec...that's it.

Now we suffer but its on a smaller scale saying CHI should of traded kane and towes because they suck now so they dont win their 3rd cup.

Odd analogy...

Plekanec/DD are not Toews/Kane

And the Habs did not win a Cup with Plekanec/DD.

Again smaller scale since we dont have a cup but just an analogy to show that sometimes the sacrafices you make to win come back to bite you in the butt.

Not a very good analogy.

 

[scrubadam]

No I don't consider it successful because the team ultimately was critically flawed, Plekanec/DD wasn't good enough to compete then. Period.

The team rode the back of Price as far as he could take them but when they met teams who nullified that advantage, they had no answer down the middle


I would have traded that fleeting "success" not for a couple of more goals and points from Galchenyuk and Eller.

But for their development...I think we'd be in an entirely different situation today had that happened.

The team Gaines NOTHING from using them the way they did, they just superficially inflated Plekanec's value which ultimately resulted in him signing an awful extension not too long after.

The only person who benefitted was Plekanec...that's it.


Odd analogy...

Plekanec/DD are not Toews/Kane

And the Habs did not win a Cup with Plekanec/DD.


Not a very good analogy.

I will just have to agree to disagree. There is nothing guranteing that playing AG and Eller more would of changed their careers. But we do have the fact of the results. Yes it wasnt a cup but it was winning hockey and playoff fun. We arent any closer to a cup with 50 to 60 point AG down the middle then we were with 50 to 60 point Pleks down the middle.

Yes price was a big part but it takes a team to win. After this season the myth of Price single handly carrying the team should be put out to pasture.

I just dont think its fair to argue against proven results vs an unkown future. Playing those guys had a price which was MAYBE hurting AGs development. From my POV i dont know if AG was ever going to become that C we all wanted. For me the price was worth it due to the enjoyment i got from watching the team win alot more games than it lost. For you maybe it wasnt a worthwhile trade off.

I just come back to you cant argue with results. Just like everyone for now is right in saying playing JD as the teams 1c was a bad move. If in 2 years from now JD turns into a star C we can look back and say it was worth it but it wouldnt erase this horrible season or change the fact that MB should of gotten a C this season.

Like i said for me winning hockey was worth it. Pay now suffer later.

 

[Laurentide]

No I don't consider it successful because the team ultimately was critically flawed, Plekanec/DD wasn't good enough to compete then. Period.

The team rode the back of Price as far as he could take them but when they met teams who nullified that advantage, they had no answer down the middle


I would have traded that fleeting "success" not for a couple of more goals and points from Galchenyuk and Eller.

But for their development...I think we'd be in an entirely different situation today had that happened.

The team Gaines NOTHING from using them the way they did, they just superficially inflated Plekanec's value which ultimately resulted in him signing an awful extension not too long after.

The only person who benefitted was Plekanec...that's it.


Odd analogy...

Plekanec/DD are not Toews/Kane

And the Habs did not win a Cup with Plekanec/DD.


Not a very good analogy.

Exactly. They were successful in the standings during that period but they were never going to do anything real vis a vis competing for the Cup with DD and Pleks as their top 2 centers. Any team can win games on a Tuesday night in December. Pretty much every team and every player only goes full out for 60 or so games a year. The other 20 or so get mailed in so if you catch an opponent on a night when their give-a-damn level is low you can rack up an easy win. But come playoff time, nobody takes a night or even a shift off. They sell out on every play and frauds like DD and Pleks get exposed under those conditions.

 

[417]

I will just have to agree to disagree. There is nothing guranteing that playing AG and Eller more would of changed their careers. But we do have the fact of the results. Yes it wasnt a cup but it was winning hockey and playoff fun. We arent any closer to a cup with 50 to 60 point AG down the middle then we were with 50 to 60 point Pleks down the middle.

Yes price was a big part but it takes a team to win. After this season the myth of Price single handly carrying the team should be put out to pasture.

I just dont think its fair to argue against proven results vs an unkown future. Playing those guys had a price which was MAYBE hurting AGs development. From my POV i dont know if AG was ever going to become that C we all wanted. For me the price was worth it due to the enjoyment i got from watching the team win alot more games than it lost. For you maybe it wasnt a worthwhile trade off.

I just come back to you cant argue with results. Just like everyone for now is right in saying playing JD as the teams 1c was a bad move. If in 2 years from now JD turns into a star C we can look back and say it was worth it but it wouldnt erase this horrible season or change the fact that MB should of gotten a C this season.

Like i said for me winning hockey was worth it. Pay now suffer later.

Fair enough - for me it just doesn't make sense.

It would be like if the Habs this year, drafted Andrei Svechnikov...he makes the team and they use him as s 3rd line LW because they gotta make sure defensively-apt Paul Byron matches up against top lines every night for 5yrs.

it's just doesn't make much sense.

 

[Adam Michaels]

As has been mentioned earlier, Valiev is headed to the KHL. Oh well!

 

[THE HOFF]

It's been 6-7-8yrs since Plekanec was his prime...

DLR doesn't have to replace THAT Plekanec...he just needs to replace the Plekanec of the last 2yrs.

Pretty much any player can do that

you clearly have some kind of vendetta against plekanec. The hilarious part is that you imply that there were and that there are better, younger options. its not like we are in a position not to give them a look lol. DLR can't even replace a washed up plekanec. He's a marginal player getting way to many chances at occupying an important role on the team because of our lack of centers, just like its the reason plekanec is overplayed. You're argument is that DLR wasn't played enough, and mine is that he was played too much. we are miles apart here. you can't fault plekanec for having ES toi when you can't provide a better option. you're thought process regarding plekanec's career - and how he was in the way of eller - is disgraceful.

 

[Redux91]

As has been mentioned earlier, Valiev is headed to the KHL. Oh well!

oh yeah? oh well

it was all about the 2nd round pick anyhow, i was really worried it would only be a 3rd for a while..it could of been a first if they let him go when it was time...

 

[417]

you clearly have some kind of vendetta against plekanec.

Or you have a lack of comprehension of what you read.

The hilarious part is that you imply that there were and that there are better, younger options. its not like we are in a position not to give them a look lol. DLR can't even replace a washed up plekanec.

Yes he can, he did so quite admirably when Plekanec was traded (enter advanced stats army).

It's not hard to replace an over-used, over-the-hill, one way defensive forward.

He's a marginal player getting way to many chances at occupying an important role on the team because of our lack of centers, just like its the reason plekanec is overplayed.

Yeah...DLR has gotten a ton of opportunities

Please, are you eventually going to post something I can't counter in 2.5 secs?

DLR wasn't played enough, and mine is that he was played too much. we are miles apart here. you can't fault plekanec for having ES toi when you can't provide a better option. you're thought process regarding plekanec's career - and how he was in the way of eller - is disgraceful.

And I've never faulted him for that, I blamed the coaching staff and our GM.

I said so SEVERAL times...but with you inability to comprehend what you're reading, it got lost somewhere.

As for my thought process on Plekanec career is that he had a very solid career with the Habs, a consumate pro who should serve as an example to young players trying to push through.

Is that's what's disgraceful?

Or again, is it you're inability to comprehend what you read, that's truly disgraceful?

I'm gonna go with the latter...

 

[Fazkovsky]

I said dlr can replace plekanec as a bottom 6 Center not top 6

Prime plekanec was a second line Center which maybe what we can get in poehling or stastny

 

[scrubadam]

Lets not degrade Pleks career as a hab. I dont want him back but he was probably one of the best 2nd line centers in the league. Its not his fault his GMs didnt get better Cs or his coaches trusted him.

His last 3 seasons here were rough and made his good seasons so long ago but Pleks was always a professional that bleed the blue blanc et rouge.

If he can sign somewhere else and turn it around good for him. Time for the team to turn the page.

 

[tazsub3]

I strongly believe that dlr is not only better then current pleks but he will be one of the big benificiary of the hiring of Ducharme , with his offense making a substantial improvement.
That does not mean I think he will become an offensive powerhouse , but that means he will become an above average 4th liner with good offensive output for his role

 

[Belial]

Fair enough - for me it just doesn't make sense.

It would be like if the Habs this year, drafted Andrei Svechnikov...he makes the team and they use him as s 3rd line LW because they gotta make sure defensively-apt Paul Byron matches up against top lines every night for 5yrs.

it's just doesn't make much sense.

The coach is trying to win games! I think this is something you don't get...

He's not using his players with the idea that they will be better in a couple of years, this team was not rebuilding or tanking...

 

[417]

Plekanec has been sheltering our other C's for a decade and you blame his high TOI. stop stats watching and get real.

Plekanec has had a wonderful career with the Habs, but that time is done...

Time for him to move on like it's time for me to move one from this lame *** debate with you, i'm out here playing chess and you're playing checkers.