Confirmed with Link: Tomas Plekanec (50% Retained) + Kyle Baun to Maple Leafs for 2018 2nd Rd Pick, Rychel, Valiev

417

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The coach is trying to win games! I think this is something you don't get...
And I see that plan has worked out wonderfully!

He's not using his players with the idea that they will be better in a couple of years, this team was not rebuilding or tanking...
They should of been building...

But you'll get your wish as i'm 100% sure the Habs are re-signing Plekanec and play him 16 mins a game again next year.

Using Plekanec has always been more important than having any other center progress for this team anyways.
 

417

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They did win... They had some decent PO runs... I mean, those are facts!
Playoff runs aren't success for me...perhaps we define success differently.

Don't get me wrong, it was nice at the time, but it should of led to more progress from the team, instead, they hit a wall and are now going in the opposite direction.

With hindsight we can rewrite everything foe sure..but...
Hindsight for you maybe...not me.

They were building IMO, what were they doing if not building in your opinion?
surviving/hoping/praying/wishing
 

Belial

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Oct 22, 2014
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Playoff runs aren't success for me...perhaps we define success differently.

Don't get me wrong, it was nice at the time, but it should of led to more progress from the team, instead, they hit a wall and are now going in the opposite direction.

Again, we've already debated this. The team overachieved unfortunately, there was no chance in hell they would've sold during those years.

Hindsight for you maybe...not me.

Your plan made no sense at that moment.

If the overall plan was win now...
surviving/hoping/praying/wishing

Surviving? They won the division 3 times in 5 years...
 

417

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Again, we've already debated this. The team overachieved unfortunately, there was no chance in hell they would've sold during those years.
The teams results were skewed, anyone who watched the Habs under Therrien his first 3yrs could easily see that the team was critically flawed, that while Carey Price and PK Subban could carry them beyond what the quality of their team dictated they should be, ultimately, when faced against true Cup contenders who could nullify Price/Subban...

The Habs just didn't have what it took to play against contenders down the middle....

Look at who the Habs lost against in the playoffs under Therrien, compare those teams down the middle against the Habs.

The Habs were overachievers, you're right about that...overachievers = pretenders.


Your plan made no sense at that moment.

If the overall plan was win now...
Winning now (or then since we're talking past term) was not my plan because I knew the Habs were a critically flawed team, I was OK with taking a step back and acquiring more assets for when I thought the Habs would/should actually be ready to contend.

But they continued to invest in this flawed team and they hit a wall...which was exactly what I and many here, argued would happen.

You can't legitimately say you're going to compete for a Cup and Tomas Plekanec is our highest paid forward and top center. It just doesn't make any sense.

"My plan" was pretty straightforward, after the habs lost to the Bolts in 2014-15, where I thought Tomas Plekanec was directly responsible for 2 losses with his lazy play and inability to finish gifted chances, I thought it was time to reset then.

I wasn't talking about blowing it up, just re-setting. I argued in favor of moving him because Plekanec would be a UFA at the conclusion of the following season (22015-16) and I knew the Habs would end up re-signing him at a salary which didn't make sense (you can search posts of mine which literally say the Habs will be paying Plekanec 6M to be their 3rd line centere months before he signed his extension).

BTW - this sounds eerily similar to what's happening with Pacioretty right now.

I proposed doing like the Coyotes did when they moved Vermette for a 1st + prospect...I thought the 2015 draft looked very strong and I suggested having two 1st round picks could help us resolve our center ice issue at the very least.

In 2015 the Habs ended up picking Juulsen at #26...Tomas Plekanec then, was still a highly regarded player, the Habs could of been able to snag an extra 1st round pick (+ prospect) from a team that finished in the teens or late 20's...let's look at some players drafted in that range in 2015.

#16 Matthew Barzal, #17 Kyle Connor, #18 Thomas Chabot, #20 Joel Ericksson-Ek, #21 Colin White, #23 Brock Boeser, #24 Travis Koneckny, #25 Jake Roslovic

How much different would the Habs be today with one of these players + a prospect from one of these teams?

This isn't hindsight either, I argued it at the time.

Surviving? They won the division 3 times in 5 years...
and? what's your point?

Successful teams are built on a sustainable model...not one that's built almost entirely on key players on its team punching above their weight class.
 
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Belial

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and? what's your point?

We pretty much agree on everything you said in that response, where we disagree is at what actually happened.

The team was performing... The team was extremely flawed, it was not a real contender but the worst coach ever Therrien got those guys playing a fast hard paced game and it brought results...

How do you sell some sort of rebuild to this city and fanbase when you have those results on the ice?
 

417

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We pretty much agree on everything you said in that response, where we disagree is at what actually happened.

The team was performing... The team was extremely flawed, it was not a real contender but the worst coach ever Therrien got those guys playing a fast hard paced game and it brought results...

How do you sell some sort of rebuild to this city and fanbase when you have those results on the ice?
By not doubling down on a team and players who have proven they can't take you to the next level...fans, real ones, will understand this.

If you don't believe me...see Maple Leafs fans or Rangers fans.

Fans, for the most part, aren't stupid...we all saw the flawed team, some bought into the hype that we were greater than the sum of our parts (even I did for awhile) but this team exposed itself for what it was so many times.

And to me, with all due respect, there was no greater actor in this charade than the player expected to lead this team down the middle.
 

Belial

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By not doubling down on a team and players who have proven they can't take you to the next level...fans, real ones, will understand this.

If you don't believe me...see Maple Leafs fans or Rangers fans.

Fans, for the most part, aren't stupid...we all saw the flawed team, some bought into the hype that we were greater than the sum of our parts (even I did for awhile) but this team exposed itself for what it was so many times.

And to me, with all due respect, there was no greater actor in this charade than the player expected to lead this team down the middle.

Disagree completely, this whole board thought that that team was a real contender!

You can still see those comments around here, how Bergevin destroyed a contender team...

That team was so freaking flawed overachieving like crazy...
 

417

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Disagree completely, this whole board thought that that team was a real contender!

You can still see those comments around here, how Bergevin destroyed a contender team...

That team was so freaking flawed overachieving like crazy...
I can't speak for everyone...

But ultimately, I think anyone who wasn't just 'riding the wave' knew this team didn't have what it took to play against the best teams.
 

Belial

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I can't speak for everyone...

But ultimately, I think anyone who wasn't just 'riding the wave' knew this team didn't have what it took to play against the best teams.

After reading the avalanche of Bergevin's a moron posts you come up with this?

Clearly the majority around here thought we had the team to contend..
 

417

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After reading the avalanche of Bergevin's a moron posts you come up with this?

Clearly the majority around here thought we had the team to contend..
I'm not even sure what you mean or what that has to do with anything.

Does it matter what the majority here thought? They were wrong, results have bared that.

You're focusing on irrelevant information. Who care if people though the Habs had a team to contend, they didn't, if they did, they would of contended.
 

Belial

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I'm not even sure what you mean or what that has to do with anything.

Does it matter what the majority here thought? They were wrong, results have bared that.

You're focusing on irrelevant information. Who care if people though the Habs had a team to contend, they didn't, if they did, they would of contended.

The way you presented it, it was like everyone saw it, it was not the case at all.

That was my point.
 

417

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The way you presented it, it was like everyone saw it, it was not the case at all.

That was my point.
I don't recall saying 'everyone'...but I apologize if I did

Replace that word with "many" if you prefer

Doesn't change anything...either way, we're moving into a broader discussion here, so agree to disagree
 

Belial

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I don't recall saying 'everyone'...but I apologize if I did

Replace that word with "many" if you prefer

Doesn't change anything...either way, we're moving into a broader discussion here, so agree to disagree

It's not an agree to disagree thing, we agree but don't agree on the reality of NHL business/reality/money.
 

417

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It's not an agree to disagree thing, we agree but don't agree on the reality of NHL business/reality/money.
Just saying...this discussion we're having has moved on to a broader discussion than just Plekanec.

So that's why i'm just suggesting we move on, we've opened up a whole new can of worms.
 
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Laurentide

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It all boils down to this: whatever Plekanec was at one time he isn't that guy anymore. Today, in 2018, he is a spent force; a useless asset who has zero value. We got all anyone was ever going to get out of him. He's a wrung out dishrag. That may sound cruel or disrespectful to some but that's the way you have to think when you're running a team that operates under a salary cap. You cannot afford to get sentimental about players or to pay them for the things they used to be able to do. Pro sports is a "what have you done for us lately?" business. Seeing Pleks play his 1000th game in a Habs jersey would be nice, but to make it happen would necessitate the wasting of valuable cap space on a player who can't cut it anymore so this is a move that just should not be allowed to happen.

Personally I think we should all be happy that when we finally cut the cord with this guy that we were somehow able to swindle the Leafs out of two warm bodies and a high draft pick. It's more than I would have paid for him. The time to trade him was 2 years ago when he might have fetched an NHL roster player or maybe a 1st rounder. But the fact that we got as much for him as we did, relatively speaking, will go down as one of Bergevin's best deals (I know. The bar is pretty low on that but still)

It's time for both parties, and the fans, to move on. The Turtleneck Era has ended for good.
 

Steve Shutt

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......a useless asset who has zero value.


A useless asset that brought us a 2nd, Rychel, and Valiev two months ago. Arguably one of the top defensive UFA C's available in July. An asset that can be flipped at the deadline. An asset that will likely sign under market value because he doesn't want to uproot his family.

It's not a sentimental argument. For me, I think it's solid asset management. However signing him comes at the expense of ice time for our younger players so our scouts and management will need to take that into account. If in the end they believe he'll hurt guys like McCarron and JDLR I'm okay with passing on him.
 

417

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I like DLR but he's far away from even a 40 year old Plekasex right now....
Bull****!

The Habs got more out of DLR post deadline then they got out of Plekanec all year.

DLR actually progressed as a player this year, that is a benefit to this organization...

Plekanec is regressing every game, there is no benefit to the organization.

If this team was in a different situation, closer to contending, re-signing Plekanec would make sense...but for where they are now, it makes NO SENSE.

You can not be playing Plekanec over guys like DLR or McCarron or Evans....I don't care that Plekanec is "better" than them now, its not about who is better TODAY, it's about where these players will be 1yr from now, or 2yrs from now, etc...
 
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417

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A useless asset that brought us a 2nd, Rychel, and Valiev two months ago. Arguably one of the top defensive UFA C's available in July. An asset that can be flipped at the deadline. An asset that will likely sign under market value because he doesn't want to uproot his family.

It's not a sentimental argument. For me, I think it's solid asset management. However signing him comes at the expense of ice time for our younger players so our scouts and management will need to take that into account. If in the end they believe he'll hurt guys like McCarron and JDLR I'm okay with passing on him.
Rychel & Valiev probably never play in the NHL...Valiev's already been said to be going to the KHL

The trade was basically Plekanec for a 2nd round pick
 
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donghabs98

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Rychel & Valiev probably never play in the NHL...Valiev's already been said to be going to the KHL

The trade was basically Plekanec for a 2nd round pick

I actually could see Rychel playing in the NHL in a Mike Blunden type of role where he's just a spare forward/ call up since he can score in the AHL and did not look too out of place when he was playing games with the Habs.

But you are right, the trade was mainly the 2nd for Pleks, the rest was just filler.
 
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Habs100

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Rychel & Valiev probably never play in the NHL...Valiev's already been said to be going to the KHL

The trade was basically Plekanec for a 2nd round pick

That was a great trade for us.

I don't mind resigning him, but only if he plays as our 4th line center. And the only reason I want him back is because we're not making the playoffs anyways and hopefully he gets us another draft pick at the deadline. The thing is, if he's playing 4th line center, I doubt he gets us a 2nd.

The downside would be he takes away development time from DLR. I don't mind that because I see nothing in DLR's game that he can contribute as a forward.
 

417

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That was a great trade for us.

I don't mind resigning him, but only if he plays as our 4th line center. And the only reason I want him back is because we're not making the playoffs anyways and hopefully he gets us another draft pick at the deadline. The thing is, if he's playing 4th line center, I doubt he gets us a 2nd.

The downside would be he takes away development time from DLR. I don't mind that because I see nothing in DLR's game that he can contribute as a forward.
Thats directly related to the lack of opportunities he's gotten, notice how as soon as Plekanec got trader and a spot opener up for him, he looked like a guy who may indeed have a future as a bottom 6 center?

You re-sign Plekanec next year, he goes right back to being irrelevant.
 

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