Tom Wilson takes down Panarin, fined $5k for roughing Buchnevich - Part 5

bur and 666 others

Registered User
Jun 13, 2012
1,962
795
Crosby's play has nothing to do with this play and is whataboutism, at best.
It's not whataboutism, it shows double standard. Equally or even more dangerous play is completely ignored, while the incident with Panarin is called a horrifying act of violence. It should be both called violence or neither of these episodes.

I do think Wilson's was more malicious, his punch on Buchnevich in particular was completely unprovoked and inexcusable, and I do think that Wilson's history of lengthy suspensions does hold him to a different standard, and any discipline against him should be escalated.
It was provoked, Buchenevich was hitting the goalie. Saying that one episode was more malicious than other just shows your bias. I'm okey with suspension, penalty and etc, but honestly this whole out cry is hypocrisy at it's best.
 

CupsOverCash

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
16,395
7,125
I'll just add my two cents having looked at the video a few times as I'm sure it was when it was reviewed.

Wilson punched Bach's shoulder. Either by accident or intent. I can't guess at someone's intentions in the moment so that's what he punched. And that's what he should get fined for.

Panarin was the third man in jumping on Wilson's back with his stick around Wilson's throat at the start. (likely unintentional). At the time Panarin does this, Wilson was already wrestling with another Ranger. Making Panarin the THIRD MAN IN. And more importantly, a WILLING combatant.

Wilson either grabs Panarin's hair or his jersey and chucks him to the ice (they both fell) but Panarin gets the worst of it because he's smaller.

WE DO NOT SUSPEND SOMEONE FOR GETTING BEAT UP WHEN THEY ARE WILLING COMBATANTS IN MUTUAL COMBAT.

Wilson tries to pin Panarin after slamming him to the ice. He doesn't do much more in the scrum. And for whatever reason, everyone keeps their gloves on? Is this because of the nhl rules or definition of a "fight"? Seems odd and on purpose.

The Rangers need to 'man' up. Your boy got slammed but he was the one who jumped on Wilson's back. Don't start fights with people who can smash you.

The problem is that it's a dangerous play and Wilson has been involved with plays like this repeatedly and if he doesn't stop we could see something worse transpire and that is the problem with this. We also can't be saying we need to protect players health and allow things like this to fly. We are enabling something far worse potentially and that is what people don't understand.
 

uncleben

Global Moderator
Dec 4, 2008
14,271
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Acton, Ontario
No it isn't. If they have no rule for it they can't suspend him.

If they don't have a rule, they still can.
Rule 28 states,
the Commissioner may, at his discretion, investigate any incident that occurs in connection with any Pre-season, Exhibition, League or Playoff game and may assess additional fines and/or suspensions for any offense committed during the course of a game or any aftermath thereof by a player, goalkeeper, Trainer, Manager, Coach or non-playing Club personnel or Club executive, whether or not such offense has been penalized by the Referee
"any offense committed", it does not need to be a codified rule AND no penalty needs to be called on the player, let alone a matching penalty.
Also, the Head of Player Safety's role is to make decisions in the name of the Commissioner.

But even still, the play can be penalized on at least three grounds: fighting, aggressing, roughing.

Fighting is left intentionally vague so that refs have more discretion and can be more judicious on the ice, but Rule 46.1 includes "at least one player punches or attempts to punch an opponent repeatedly or when two players wrestle in such a manner as to make it difficult for the Linesmen to intervene and separate the combatants" - Wilson threw punches and was wrestling with several players. This could apply to every other player as well, and I doubt you would ever see supplemental discipline based on that alone, but it's technically the rule, and you were looking a rule, so there's one.

Aggressor, Rule 46.2 encapsulates "throw[ing] punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on [an] opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling combatant" - Wilson punching Buch on the ice is a pretty textbook example. Both Zach Kassian and Alex Burrows have been suspended using this rule during Parros' tenure as Head of DoPS (Burrow's suspension, quite notably, involved Burrows pulling Taylor Hall down to the ice, and punching Hall while he was on the ice).

Roughing, 51.1, includes "a punching or slamming motion with or without the glove on the hand, normally directed at the head or face of an opponent". Again, his punch on Buch is pretty textbook, and it was in fact the exact rule they used to fine him, so the play was clearly subjectable to supplemental discipline. There have been 3 suspensions and 9 fines based on roughing since Parros became the head, so, again clearly, roughing is both a penalty that can be the subject of supplemental discipline, but also there is precedent for it to be suspendable.

Lastly, the CBA, specifically section 18.5, defines supplemental discipline as including both fines and suspensions and does not differentiate between the two as alternatives of each other, but instead clarifies them as extensions of one another. Discipline can be as follows: 1) no discipline 2) fine <$5000 3) fine >$5000 4) suspension <5 games 5) suspension >5 games. It is not like there are some actions or penalties that can only be applied to fines but not suspensions or vice versa - if Wilson could be fined for what he did, he could've been suspended for what he did.




DoPS made their decision, but it is not because what Wilson did was not suspendable, and in fact there is strong precedent for it and Wilson has a history that shouldn't be ignored. And that is why people are taking exception to their decision; people feel they made the wrong one.
 
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dortt

Registered User
Sep 21, 2018
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Houston, TX
The on ice punishment was sufficient. 4 and 10.

Suspending him for that would basically mean anyone who instigates a fight deserves a suspension
 

Pengu

Registered User
Jun 24, 2016
1,176
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Don't really see anything there outside of the usual hockey shenanigans when tempers flare.

If this wasn't Wilson, nobody would care.
Sure, but that is cause you lack empathy. others who try to put themselves into Panarin's skates understands that it was close that Wilson cracked his skull open....
 
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BullLund

Registered User
Dec 28, 2017
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Sure, but that is cause you lack empathy. others who try to put themselves into Panarin's skates understands that it was close that Wilson cracked his skull open....

If I put myself in Panarin's skates, I'd choose not to grapple with a guy who's like 50 pounds bigger. The guy is way too important to his team, and way too skilled, to be making such ill-advised decisions.

It was stupid on both players' parts. Panarin was literally hanging off of him and got tossed by a much bigger man, the results obviously aren't pretty.
 

Muston Atthews

Bunch of Bangerz
Jul 2, 2009
32,642
5,008
Toronto, Ontario
Great point. A guy with a history of being a scumbag thug grabbing someone by the hair and slamming the player to the ice with the back of his head making first contact is clearly not suspending worthy. What's it going to take, someone dying before shit like this is eliminated from the game.

Panarin shouldn’t have grabbed him from behind, he wouldn’t have gotten tossed
 

Leafsdude7

Stand-Up Philosopher
Mar 26, 2011
23,135
1,213
Ontario
Panarin shouldn’t have grabbed him from behind, he wouldn’t have gotten tossed

So Panarin should have stood there and watched as Wilson laid out on top of Strome while nailing him with rabbit punches?

You know the same "a man sport"-types would be calling out Panarin for being a soft wimp for that.

Sometimes you just can't win, I guess.
 

Muston Atthews

Bunch of Bangerz
Jul 2, 2009
32,642
5,008
Toronto, Ontario
So Panarin should have stood there and watched as Wilson laid out on top of Strome while nailing him with rabbit punches?

You know the same "a man sport"-types would be calling out Panarin for being a soft wimp for that.

Sometimes you just can't win, I guess.

I’m not here to tell Panarin what he should’ve done. I’m saying if you’re grabbing a guy like Wilson from behind you better expect to get something.

can’t mess with the bull and complain when you get the horns
 

SpinningEdge

Registered User
Feb 12, 2015
7,719
3,492
Fairfax, VA
The problem is that it's a dangerous play and Wilson has been involved with plays like this repeatedly and if he doesn't stop we could see something worse transpire and that is the problem with this. We also can't be saying we need to protect players health and allow things like this to fly. We are enabling something far worse potentially and that is what people don't understand.
A punch at end of scuffle with guys helmet on and wilsons glove on after guy is kicking at goalie - isn’t that bad.

panarin jumped at Wilson and put his stick around his neck amd started the fight... while being third man in.

mess with fire you get burned. People have right to defend themselves. Next time hopefully
Panarin has better hockey IQ.
 
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kingpest19

Registered User
Sep 21, 2004
12,307
705
If they don't have a rule, they still can.
Rule 28 states,
"any offense committed", it does not need to be a codified rule AND no penalty needs to be called on the player, let alone a matching penalty.
Also, the Head of Player Safety's role is to make decisions in the name of the Commissioner.

But even still, the play can be penalized on at least three grounds: fighting, aggressing, roughing.

Fighting is left intentionally vague so that refs have more discretion and can be more judicious on the ice, but Rule 46.1 includes "at least one player punches or attempts to punch an opponent repeatedly or when two players wrestle in such a manner as to make it difficult for the Linesmen to intervene and separate the combatants" - Wilson threw punches and was wrestling with several players. This could apply to every other player as well, and I doubt you would ever see supplemental discipline based on that alone, but it's technically the rule, and you were looking a rule, so there's one.

Aggressor, Rule 46.2 encapsulates "throw[ing] punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on [an] opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling combatant" - Wilson punching Buch on the ice is a pretty textbook example. Both Zach Kassian and Alex Burrows have been suspended using this rule during Parros' tenure as Head of DoPS (Burrow's suspension, quite notably, involved Burrows pulling Taylor Hall down to the ice, and punching Hall while he was on the ice).

Roughing, 51.1, includes "a punching or slamming motion with or without the glove on the hand, normally directed at the head or face of an opponent". Again, his punch on Buch is pretty textbook, and it was in fact the exact rule they used to fine him, so the play was clearly subjectable to supplemental discipline. There have been 3 suspensions and 9 fines based on roughing since Parros became the head, so, again clearly, roughing is both a penalty that can be the subject of supplemental discipline, but also there is precedent for it to be suspendable.

Lastly, the CBA, specifically section 18.5, defines supplemental discipline as including both fines and suspensions and does not differentiate between the two as alternatives of each other, but instead clarifies them as extensions of one another. Discipline can be as follows: 1) no discipline 2) fine <$5000 3) fine >$5000 4) suspension <5 games 5) suspension >5 games. It is not like there are some actions or penalties that can only be applied to fines but not suspensions or vice versa - if Wilson could be fined for what he did, he could've been suspended for what he did.




DoPS made their decision, but it is not because what Wilson did was not suspendable, and in fact there is strong precedent for it and Wilson has a history that shouldn't be ignored. And that is why people are taking exception to their decision; people feel they made the wrong one.
I get people being upset but when was the last time a player got suspended for punching a guy on the ground or tossing another player to the ice during a scrum?
 

SpinningEdge

Registered User
Feb 12, 2015
7,719
3,492
Fairfax, VA
1) Buchnevich was never "kicking at goalie" (sic)

2) Even if he wasn't that doesn't justify Wilson's act.
A punch to back shoulder in a scuffle with a player in goalies area? Happens every game.

... yes. Wilson crossed the line - but that’s why he got a 10 game misconduct.

panarin jumped on Wilson’s back with his stick around Wilson’s neck - while being the third man in. Wilson defended himself and it’s not Wilson’s fault panarin was so stupid he went after him and got thrown around like a ragdoll. You don’t start fights if the person can beat you up easily.
 
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Leafsdude7

Stand-Up Philosopher
Mar 26, 2011
23,135
1,213
Ontario
Scuffles where players punch at players faces around the goalie net? Literally every other nhl game.

That’s not a suspendible play. It’s roughing.

1) I don't see you posting what I asked for.

2) Punching a player around the goalie net is nowhere near what happened between Buchnevich and Wilson. At all.
 

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