Toews vs Backstrom

[Crazyhorse]

2001.

No wonder when he had his spleen removed.

 

[Le Golie]

And for those saying Backstrom had such a awful tournament need to check your facts. He had 8 points in 6 games or so. I am not sure that's the definition of awful.

I'm not going to read the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone saying Backstrom had an awful tournament.

Anyone who would say something like that should just be ignored because even the newest hockey watcher could easily see the pure talent in Backstrom by watching any single game of his. He didn't have a terrible tournament, and I don't remember anyone saying that.

 

[Kaizer]

No wonder when he had his spleen removed.

Sakic didn't win in 2001 withour Forsberg or what ?

 

[daikan]

You mean you never heard of Ryan "19 points in 21 OHL games O`Marra or Tom "drafted 107 overall" Pyatt? How could you not score with them on your line

Don't want to get dragged into the whole discussion but felt I had something to say here.

While O'Marra and Pyatt aren't world beaters, they are certainly better than Zackrisson and Lindqvist. But the big difference is in defensemen, in my opinion. The Swedish D never really managed to create a lot offensively. Meanwhile, the Canadians had Bourdon, Letang, Russell and Franson are all great offensively, definitely compared to the Swedish blueline, anyways.

 

[SChan*]

Sakic didn't win in 2001 withour Forsberg or what ?

he wouldn't without Forsberg carrying them vs the Kings. Dont be ignorant.

 

[TRVIPERS]

Chelios, all your credible posts went to the sh1tter when you said NCAA was better than SEL.

Lets agree the NHL is a better league than the SEL.Ok,now I would say that there is more players in the NCAA that will play in the NHL than there is players in the SEL that will play in the NHL.The NCAA has become a tremendous place for prospects to develope and if you look over the rosters there is a awful lot of talent,including several number 1 picks..Often players will come out of the NCAA and go to NHL teams and contribute immediately.In comparison, prospects that play in the juniors generally need more seasoning in the minors than prospects that come out of the NCAA.Big guns come out of junior and go to college and get a reality check because its a far tougher league.Is this to say that Toews would be better if he was playing with men in the AHL rather than developing in the NCAA with other prospects that WILL also play in the NHL?The ultimate thing here is playing in the NHL, Toews plays against players that will play in the NHL, where Backstrom plays against men that may as well be full time AHLers because they will never play in the NHL.Playing in the top league in Sweden is great for Backstrom, but how many players does he play against that WILL be in the NHL? I agree that Backstrom is a tremendous talent, but dont think that Toews playing in the NCAA makes him any less ready for the NHL.
Then there is the North American Game factor,often European studs come to America
and have trouble adapting to the North American style game. This could happen to Backstrom, its not going to happen to Toews.Both players are great,however I believe that Toews could be considered more NHL ready just due to the fact he has always played the North American game and Backstrom has not.

 

[helicecopter]

..its not going to happen to Toews.Both players are great,however I believe that Toews could be considered more NHL ready just due to the fact he has always played the North American game and Backstrom has not.

Really a weird theory.
Backstrom playing against men in a better league and in the senior WorldChampionship being less ready than Toews..
besides, imo it should be easier for Backstrom's kind of game to be effective straight away at NHL level than for Toews'.

 

[CapsWolverinesUSA]

Lets agree the NHL is a better league than the SEL.Ok,now I would say that there is more players in the NCAA that will play in the NHL than there is players in the SEL that will play in the NHL.The NCAA has become a tremendous place for prospects to develope and if you look over the rosters there is a awful lot of talent,including several number 1 picks..Often players will come out of the NCAA and go to NHL teams and contribute immediately.In comparison, prospects that play in the juniors generally need more seasoning in the minors than prospects that come out of the NCAA.Big guns come out of junior and go to college and get a reality check because its a far tougher league.Is this to say that Toews would be better if he was playing with men in the AHL rather than developing in the NCAA with other prospects that WILL also play in the NHL?The ultimate thing here is playing in the NHL, Toews plays against players that will play in the NHL, where Backstrom plays against men that may as well be full time AHLers because they will never play in the NHL.Playing in the top league in Sweden is great for Backstrom, but how many players does he play against that WILL be in the NHL? I agree that Backstrom is a tremendous talent, but dont think that Toews playing in the NCAA makes him any less ready for the NHL.
Then there is the North American Game factor,often European studs come to America
and have trouble adapting to the North American style game. This could happen to Backstrom, its not going to happen to Toews.Both players are great,however I believe that Toews could be considered more NHL ready just due to the fact he has always played the North American game and Backstrom has not.

I can't say this makes much sense to me. Yes, the NCAA has more future NHLers than the SEL. But what does this tell us? For starters, as you note, these future NHLers are often in the midst of developing as players. From the physical standpoint, there is no question which league is tougher to play and survive in: The SEL, by a mile.

In terms of overall skill, I would agree that there are more elite skill players in the NCAA. The NHL draft results certainly back this up, as there are far more high draft picks playing college hockey than playing in Sweden. But there are also over 50 NCAA teams, compared to 12 SEL teams. So why are we talking about raw quantities here? If each NCAA team had 1 future NHLer and each SEL team had 4, the NCAA could still boast more future NHLers, but that would hardly support the further conclusion that these numbers prove NCAA hockey is 'better'.

The only relevant question is which player is facing better competition on a night in, night out basis. North Dakota doesn't play Michigan this year. So why should it matter to an evaluation of Toews that Michigan has four 1st round draft picks on their roster? Don't get me wrong, the WCHA is a great conference, and has more combined talent than any other college conference. When Toews plays Minnesota, he's seeing almost as many future NHLers as in the entire SEL combined. But there are still teams like Michigan Tech, Minnesota State, Minnesota Duluth and Alaska Anchorage which probably don't have more than 1 guy who will ever play in the NHL in any given season, if that. Many of North Dakota's games are against these 4 teams, or teams just like them (Quinnippiac, St. Lawrence, Bemidji State, etc). Compare the skill on those teams to the SEL, and I think there's little doubt that the SEL has more skill on the ice. Manny lower tier division 1 players would not be able to hack it in the SEL. Thus, it's misleading to say 'The NCAA has more overall skill, so Toews is getting better experience every game'.

Backstrom sees a fairly consistent level of skill every night and plays more games. Toews plays 1 weekend against great skill, and the next against very little. These facts call upon different faculties in a player. Backstrom has to bring his game every night to be a consistent success. Toews can dominate Minnesota Duluth with his B-game and has more time to rest before big games against the Gophers or Badgers. But at the same time, Backstrom rarely if ever encounters a player with equal skill as himself, while Toews frequently runs into other 1st round picks. Thus, while not an every-game-thing, Toews does get experience against elite talent that Backstrom misses out on. Is one type of experience better for a developing elite prospect than the other? I can't say I have any idea how to answer that for sure. And I agree that there is value in playing in North America when preparing for the NHL, but I disagree with the oversimplified idea of "NCAA has more future NHLers, so Toews is proving more".

 

[TRVIPERS]

Really a weird theory.
Backstrom playing against men in a better league and in the senior WorldChampionship being less ready than Toews..
besides, imo it should be easier for Backstrom's kind of game to be effective straight away at NHL level than for Toews'.

Not neccesarily a theory,look at all the European studs that have come to the NHL and just couldnt cut the American game.Yes Backstrom is playing with men in the Swedish Elite league,and I might add the Swedes probably play the closest to the American game,I am just saying the transistion may be alot harder for Backstrom than for Toews.Playing in the World Championships isnt the same as the NHL.Backstrom may adjust to the NHL game right away and then again he may not.
On the other hand Toews should have no problem adjusting to a style he has always played.

 

[TRVIPERS]

I can't say this makes much sense to me. Yes, the NCAA has more future NHLers than the SEL. But what does this tell us? For starters, as you note, these future NHLers are often in the midst of developing as players. From the physical standpoint, there is no question which league is tougher to play and survive in: The SEL, by a mile.
In terms of overall skill, I would agree that there are more elite skill players in the NCAA. The NHL draft results certainly back this up, as there are far more high draft picks playing college hockey than playing in Sweden. But there are also over 50 NCAA teams, compared to 12 SEL teams. So why are we talking about raw quantities here? If each NCAA team had 1 future NHLer and each SEL team had 4, the NCAA could still boast more future NHLers, but that would hardly support the further conclusion that these numbers prove NCAA hockey is 'better'.
The only relevant question is which player is facing better competition on a night in, night out basis. North Dakota doesn't play Michigan this year. So why should it matter to an evaluation of Toews that Michigan has four 1st round draft picks on their roster? Don't get me wrong, the WCHA is a great conference, and has more combined talent than any other college conference. When Toews plays Minnesota, he's seeing almost as many future NHLers as in the entire SEL combined. But there are still teams like Michigan Tech, Minnesota State, Minnesota Duluth and Alaska Anchorage which probably don't have more than 1 guy who will ever play in the NHL in any given season, if that. Many of North Dakota's games are against these 4 teams, or teams just like them (Quinnippiac, St. Lawrence, Bemidji State, etc). Compare the skill on those teams to the SEL, and I think there's little doubt that the SEL has more skill on the ice. Manny lower tier division 1 players would not be able to hack it in the SEL. Thus, it's misleading to say 'The NCAA has more overall skill, so Toews is getting better experience every game'.
Backstrom sees a fairly consistent level of skill every night and plays more games. Toews plays 1 weekend against great skill, and the next against very little. These facts call upon different faculties in a player. Backstrom has to bring his game every night to be a consistent success. Toews can dominate Minnesota Duluth with his B-game and has more time to rest before big games against the Gophers or Badgers. But at the same time, Backstrom rarely if ever encounters a player with equal skill as himself, while Toews frequently runs into other 1st round picks. Thus, while not an every-game-thing, Toews does get experience against elite talent that Backstrom misses out on.
Is one type of experience better for a developing elite prospect than the other? I can't say I have any idea how to answer that for sure.
And I agree that there is value in playing in North America when preparing for the NHL, but I disagree with the oversimplified idea of "NCAA has more future NHLers, so Toews is proving more".

Quote: "Is one type of experience better for a developing elite prospect than the other? I can't say I have any idea how to answer that for sure."
Thank you ,.that is my point,Backstrom playing in the SEL or Toews playing in the NCAA--is one better than the other?
I agree with what you say here,you make some very good points.however my point wasnt that Toews was proving more, it was that the NCAA is a very viable league.
I am not saying the NCAA is better ,I am just pointing out that it is still a high level of hockey, being played against good players. I never said the NCAA had more overall skill or that Toews was getting better experience either.
Hey, who knows, I hope they both do great.
Thanks for your comments and hey dont get me wrong but Ive seen too many European prospects have problems adapting to the American game.Toews has always played it.

 

[TRVIPERS]

Tomi Kallio,one of the players leading the scoring race in the SEL, scored 55 points in 140 games in the NHL ,however he has scored 185 points in his last 196 games in the SEL.Thats near point a game numbers.Why is this ?Cuz its a different game.

Pavel Brendl –He currently has 39 points in 36 games to stand 3rd in scoring in the SEL, 3 points behind the 2 current leaders in points who have 42.
He has 26 goals and 13 assists. He leads the SEL in goals.The next closest is 19.
Brendl played 3 years in junior, In 68 games= 73 goals and 61 assists for 134 points his first year and in 61 games= 59 goals and 52 assists for 111 points the next year, and in his last year in 49 games= 40 goals and 35 assists for 75 points.
He won as outstanding forward at the world juniors. His hype was enormous. He was taken 1st overall in my hockey pool.
His best seasons in the AHL were 37 points in 64 games and 33 points in 33 games.
His best NHL season was 12 points in 42 games.
He wasn’t outstanding in the AHL or the NHL, however he seems to excel in the SEL.
You cannot deny that he is one of the best offensive players in the SEL, his stats prove it.
This leaves me to believe that being a great scorer in the SEL is not the same as doing it over in North America in the NHL.It’s a different game over here.
I just believe that adapting to the North American game is a real concern for European players, much more than a player that has always played American style hockey.

 

[Jaydawg]

Not neccesarily a theory,look at all the European studs that have come to the NHL and just couldnt cut the American game.Yes Backstrom is playing with men in the Swedish Elite league,and I might add the Swedes probably play the closest to the American game,I am just saying the transistion may be alot harder for Backstrom than for Toews.Playing in the World Championships isnt the same as the NHL.Backstrom may adjust to the NHL game right away and then again he may not.
On the other hand Toews should have no problem adjusting to a style he has always played.

didnt backstrom beat out Anze Kopitar for the rookie of the year last year in the SEL on a lesser team? And Kopitar is having an amazing season this year in the NHL? this should give 'some indication' of how good backstrom is and how well he will do next year (especially with Ovy/Semin).

 

[byeyimini]

Will they play in the NHL

...sounds from the posts like they're both ready. Will they both play in the NHL next season ? Or is there some time in the AHL in their future ?

 

[helicecopter]

Not neccesarily a theory,look at all the European studs that have come to the NHL and just couldnt cut the American game.

And you, look at all the North Americans players that excelled in juniors or did well in the AHL and just couldn't cut the NHL game.. there's plenty of them as well.
(oh, and if someone is ready to reply saying with college is different, what about a guy like Sejna then..)

Thanks for your comments and hey dont get me wrong but Ive seen too many European prospects have problems adapting to the American game.Toews has always played it.

Not at the NHL level.

I am just saying the transistion may be alot harder for Backstrom than for Toews. Playing in the World Championships isnt the same as the NHL.Backstrom may adjust to the NHL game right away and then again he may not.
On the other hand Toews should have no problem adjusting to a style he has always played.

Hey, i got your opinion.. it's just that i don't share it.
Excelling against men as a 19yrs old, even if in Europe, imo gives more guarantees for NHL success than excelling against juniors in North America. That said, obiously nothing is sure.
Even if in this case i added another not secondary thing.. the way they play their game. Personally i feel like it wil be more difficult for Toews excelling straight away playing his kind of game at the NHL level.

 

[TRVIPERS]

didnt backstrom beat out Anze Kopitar for the rookie of the year last year in the SEL on a lesser team? And Kopitar is having an amazing season this year in the NHL? this should give 'some indication' of how good backstrom is and how well he will do next year (especially with Ovy/Semin).

Your right,and I love KOPITAR,I have him in my keeper pool.At my draft this year I told the GM of the team that had 1st overall pick that he would be crazy not to pick Backstrom.He did.Backstrom is a wicked player.I truly hope that he comes over and plays like he has in the SEL.
I passionately followed the WHA Winnipeg Jets,you know,the Euro Jets.Man,I love European players,especially Swedes.My pool team has 32 players, 17 of them Euros.Datsyuk,Zetterberg,Malkin,Kopitar,Vrbata,Sjostrom,Hudler,Fleischmann,
Korpikoski,Lascek,Trukno,Zagrapan,Grigorenko,Tukonen,N.Kronvall,Smid,Emelin.This is my 17th year in my pool,there have been many seasons when my whole team was Euros.
But with drafting Euros all the time came many disappointments.I dont even want to start telling you all the Euro studs that just never panned for me.It just depresses me.Backstrom is a stud,lets hope he does fine.

 

[TRVIPERS]

Yeah your right,there is definately alot more North American players that havent panned out.Its just the Euro studs come with so much hype and they are so much more exciting than North American players.I love Euros, dam it.I guess Ive been burnt so many times that I have become leary.

 

[Mothra]

Tomi Kallio,one of the players leading the scoring race in the SEL, scored 55 points in 140 games in the NHL ,however he has scored 185 points in his last 196 games in the SEL.Thats near point a game numbers.Why is this ?Cuz its a different game.

If Kallio had lead the RSL in the 95-96 season this might hold true.....that is of course the season after his draft year. Its one thing for a well traveled 30 year old player to find his game so to speak....and its another for an 18-19 year old to do it.

Fact is there are players that do well at every level that cant make it in the NHL.....regardless of what continent they grew up/played on

 

[Tinordi24*]

I'm a Caps fan and if Chicago were to offer up Toews for Backstrom I'd do it in a heartbeat. I listened to a bunch of the WJC games on XM and Toews was all over the place.

Take into the fact that Backstrom still has trouble speaking english (uncommon from a swede), has shown hesitancy coming over, and has those potentially troublesome migraines.

 

[Mothra]

I'm a Caps fan and if Chicago were to offer up Toews for Backstrom I'd do it in a heartbeat. I listened to a bunch of the WJC games on XM and Toews was all over the place.

Take into the fact that Backstrom still has trouble speaking english (uncommon from a swede), has shown hesitancy coming over, and has those potentially troublesome migraines.

there is probably a good reason Toews went before Backstrom

 

[Joretus]

.Fact is there are players that do well at every level that cant make it in the NHL.....regardless of what continent they grew up/played on

Yeah, it's hilarious when speakin about euros it's always this "check this, how many euros didn't pan out". Well they should check how many thousands NA players didn't pan out.

 

[Crazyhorse]

there is probably a good reason Toews went before Backstrom

Yeah, he was canadian.

I think we could agree to disagree.

 

[Atlas]

I'm a Caps fan and if Chicago were to offer up Toews for Backstrom I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Tin-man, I'm making a note of this. I like Toews (alot) but if Backstrom learns to shoot the puck he's gonna be a great pick. A legit #1 center from all accounts. He shows tremendous skill and smarts.

The only thing that worries me about Toews is that it's tough to do all the things he does well at the NHL level. I expect that he will do them but I have seen many prospects play an all around great game in junior/AHL only to find that one little thing holds them back in the NHL. I expect both of these guys to be special players.

 

[bullsville]

Toews had a 4 point night vs Bemidji State

http://www.fightingsioux.com/sports/mhockey/release.asp?RELEASE_ID=5522

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I want Both.

 

[Zim]

I want Both.

now you're just being greedy.