Blue Jays Discussion: Today the off-season begins. For the Blue Jays.

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I'd just like to point out that those "dozen or so guys" are currently untouchable. This makes Bautista a much more valuable asset, but his offense is certainly not replaceable like Ryno suggests.

I'm still waiting to read who the dozen are.

 

[Woodman19]

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/79015/make-the-call-sandy-jose-bautista

Article talking about Bautista and what his perception is outside of Toronto

The cost: We asked ESPN Insider Jim Bowden, the former general manager of the Reds and Nationals, what the potential cost would be to land Bautista. He came up with the idea of a package that included Jonathon Niese and two prospects, one being Cesar Puello (the idea being to return a power-hitting prospect to the Blue Jays). We imagine the other prospect would have to be one of the Mets' higher-end youngsters, though that’s just a guess.

Mid rotation starter with control with 2 good prospects attached.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/79015/make-the-call-sandy-jose-bautista

Article talking about Bautista and what his perception is outside of Toronto



Mid rotation starter with control with 2 good prospects attached.

Sounds about right. Matt Holliday was traded twice for:

Huston Street (Closer), Greg Smith (back end rotation, young starter at the time), Carlos Gonzalez (Oakland #1 prospect)

Brett Wallace (STL #2 prospect), Clayton Mortenson (STL #17 prospect), Shane Peterson (STL #23 prospect)

 

[Radiohead]

Some of the comments on that article are hilarious:

"Bautista for Niese, one for one, I'd consider".

"Maybe Niese and Flores"

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

Homer Bailey?
Say goodbye to Aaron Sanchez and a few other prospects of ours. Makes more sense to just use free agency and go after a guy like Tanaka or Garza then dump our remaining farm system in trade.

It's time for AA to use free agency to get a impact starter rather then the trade route.

Strongly agree with this. I'm over this "we go the trade route" garbage. The farm is near depletion compared to a couple seasons ago and the league pretty much closed the loophole AA used to aggressively exploit of compensatory picks.

Time to put up or shut up and pick up a couple decent FAs since the class is rather weak. Obviously we're not going to get (due to interest from other teams and/or big time contract demands): Cano, Napoli, Ellsbury, Choo, Beltran, Cruz, Garza, Santana,

But he should go HARD after: McCann, Ruiz, Feldman, Nolasco

Unfortunately, the 2b list after Cano is very poor, so a trade may have to be made rather than FA splash. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they took a run at Ellis.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

Thanks. Should have thought of Clemens. I kind of forgot he was a Jay at one time. Olerud had a fantastic year in 93'.

I still cannot believe they landed him as FA- has to be one of the biggest FAs to ever come to any Toronto team. Only others that big and STILL at top of their game would be Cujo?

 

[Eyedea]

I still cannot believe they landed him as FA- has to be one of the biggest FAs to ever come to any Toronto team. Only others that big and STILL at top of their game would be Cujo?

His motive of joining the jays was so that he could give Duquette and the Sox org a first-hand look at how dominant he can be in his mid 30s. Jays didn't spend any money to build around him and so he demanded a trade. Hilarious that the biggest piece in a trade for the best pitcher in the world was David Wells, a guy that absolutely hated Toronto.

And then Wells is of course moved for Mike "damaged goods" Sirotka and a bunch of fodders. Gord Ash, such a good gm...

 

[Felstead]

I "for once" really desperately want to see what we have in Aaron Sanchez. I want to continue to develop this kid and see where he portrays himself someday in this starting rotation.

I look at Matt Harvey of the Mets and say to myself "Why can't we have that?" The fact that some people say that Sanchez's stuff could potentially be another Verlander(without tooting the horn and knowing Verlander is an elite level player) has myself gushing and wanting to develop and do things right with Sanchez.

I got a good feeling about this one. Lets hold onto him.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

His motive of joining the jays was so that he could give Duquette and the Sox org a first-hand look at how dominant he can be in his mid 30s. Jays didn't spend any money to build around him and so he demanded a trade. Hilarious that the biggest piece in a trade for the best pitcher in the world was David Wells, a guy that absolutely hated Toronto.

And then Wells is of course moved for Mike "damaged goods" Sirotka and a bunch of fodders. Gord Ash, such a good gm...

One of my favorite trades ever......

 

[ryno23]

I'd just like to point out that those "dozen or so guys" are currently untouchable. This makes Bautista a much more valuable asset, but his offense is certainly not replaceable like Ryno suggests.

If you are only looking at power then there are maybe less than a dozen but if you are looking at overall game where a guy will hit .300 get on base at a good clip..maybe steal a few bags that list is a dozen or so.

Don't forget the Bautista deal will bring in upgrades at other positions where the overall affect is 3 for 1.

Point being he is replaceable. What offense has he brought the past 2 years in injury plague years? You are not getting any offense from a guy on the DL.

Here are a few guys that could come in to replace him.

Ellsbury
Choo
Beltran
Cruz
Cuddyer
Ethier
Byrd
Mccann
Brandon Phillips

Here are just 8 of the top of my head. Now you take out Jose and move in 1 of these guys plus a better pitcher and one more position filled 2b,C or OF in the return for Bautista you will have a better team and replaced all the offense plus more.

So they sign Choo and deal Jose for Brandon Phillips and Homer Bailey something along those lines you have replaced Jose numbers plus added with the rest of the pieces.

Look i get everyone loves Jose he hits homers.

And before people pull out the team friendly contract or the fact some of those guys will get paid more who cares the Jays are committed to win and the payroll could be increases as per AA.

on paper those guys will provide the same amount of production albeit in some cases in different manners like AVG, SB but will provide it.

 

[Eyedea]

Top 10 player in the last 4 years, injuries included. If you want a comparable for Jose Bautista, it's Ryan Braun.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

If you are only looking at power then there are maybe less than a dozen but if you are looking at overall game where a guy will hit .300 get on base at a good clip..maybe steal a few bags that list is a dozen or so.

Don't forget the Bautista deal will bring in upgrades at other positions where the overall affect is 3 for 1.

Point being he is replaceable. What offense has he brought the past 2 years in injury plague years? You are not getting any offense from a guy on the DL.

Here are a few guys that could come in to replace him.

Ellsbury
Choo
Beltran
Cruz
Cuddyer
Ethier
Byrd
Mccann
Brandon Phillips

Here are just 8 of the top of my head. Now you take out Jose and move in 1 of these guys plus a better pitcher and one more position filled 2b,C or OF in the return for Bautista you will have a better team and replaced all the offense plus more.

So they sign Choo and deal Jose for Brandon Phillips and Homer Bailey something along those lines you have replaced Jose numbers plus added with the rest of the pieces.

Look i get everyone loves Jose he hits homers.

And before people pull out the team friendly contract or the fact some of those guys will get paid more who cares the Jays are committed to win and the payroll could be increases as per AA.

on paper those guys will provide the same amount of production albeit in some cases in different manners like AVG, SB but will provide it.

That's not why people love Jose.

On paper, none of those guys can provide the same of production as Jose, save for Choo. Cuddyer's production looks similar, however, his numbers are boosted from playing half of his games at Coors. The rest actually aren't even remotely close.

Moreover on Choo, you would most likely pay far more for him contractually. You would also lose a lot of value defensively, as Choo's range and arm have regressed sharply. I still can't believe the Reds played him in CF this past season after he was so poor in RF in 2012.

 

[canucksfan]

Choo can't bat against lefties either.

Also Cuddyer had a great year this season but he won't repeat it.

 

[The Nemesis]

Choo can't bat against lefties either.

Also Cuddyer had a great year this season but he won't repeat it.

He's good enough against righties that you can live with it though.

 

[Mach85]

If you are only looking at power then there are maybe less than a dozen but if you are looking at overall game where a guy will hit .300 get on base at a good clip..maybe steal a few bags that list is a dozen or so.

Don't forget the Bautista deal will bring in upgrades at other positions where the overall affect is 3 for 1.

Point being he is replaceable. What offense has he brought the past 2 years in injury plague years? You are not getting any offense from a guy on the DL.

Here are a few guys that could come in to replace him.

Ellsbury
Choo
Beltran
Cruz
Cuddyer
Ethier
Byrd
Mccann
Brandon Phillips

Here are just 8 of the top of my head. Now you take out Jose and move in 1 of these guys plus a better pitcher and one more position filled 2b,C or OF in the return for Bautista you will have a better team and replaced all the offense plus more.

So they sign Choo and deal Jose for Brandon Phillips and Homer Bailey something along those lines you have replaced Jose numbers plus added with the rest of the pieces.

Look i get everyone loves Jose he hits homers.

And before people pull out the team friendly contract or the fact some of those guys will get paid more who cares the Jays are committed to win and the payroll could be increases as per AA.

on paper those guys will provide the same amount of production albeit in some cases in different manners like AVG, SB but will provide it.

The problem with that is the payroll implications (read: they don't have the cash). You trade Bautista and his team-friendly deal, swap in Choo who will be hitting a free agency homerun with Boras as his agent and coming off a huge year, then you add in Brandon Phillips' massive deal. Even if they could manage to cover that increase, that leaves nothing to round out the pitching or catcher position.

 

[Eyedea]

Add Choo, add Phillips, what is Bailey getting?

They'd be hovering around the 150 mark.

 

[Woodman19]

Add Choo, add Phillips, what is Bailey getting?

They'd be hovering around the 150 mark.

Choo +$20 Million
Phillips +$11 Million
Bailey +8-10 Million

Bautista -$14 Million
Johnson -$13 Million

Net gain of $14 Million, leaving them around the $140 mark after you factor in our arbitration eligible players.

 

[Eyedea]

Choo +$20 Million
Phillips +$11 Million
Bailey +8-10 Million

Bautista -$14 Million
Johnson -$13 Million

Net gain of $14 Million, leaving them around the $140 mark after you factor in our arbitration eligible players.

Increases in Reyes', Buehrle's and Santos' salary. Potential extension candidates in Rasmus and Janssen.

 

[Auzzie19]

Our prospect cupboards are bare right now. Big questions on some guys, and some questionable moves by AA.

- Is Roberto Osuna gonna be good to go to star next season, or will he need Tommy John.
- Is the addition of Syndergaard in the Dickey trade gonna be worth it? Would have liked to have seen him at the big league level, he'll debut next season for the mets. (always thought he was the best of the bunch in Sanchez/Syndergaard/Nicolino)
- Will Stroman get even better and make the big league club next season?
- How will Hutchison and Drabek look after Tommy John?
- Will we see Sanchez @ the big league level by end of next year?

We better draft well to stock up the cupboards again.

 

[ryno23]

That's not why people love Jose.

On paper, none of those guys can provide the same of production as Jose, save for Choo. Cuddyer's production looks similar, however, his numbers are boosted from playing half of his games at Coors. The rest actually aren't even remotely close.

Moreover on Choo, you would most likely pay far more for him contractually. You would also lose a lot of value defensively, as Choo's range and arm have regressed sharply. I still can't believe the Reds played him in CF this past season after he was so poor in RF in 2012.

Your not following the conversation. I never said one player is going to replace Bautista but by moving him and inserting one of the players above and then filling 1-3 holes by dealing Jose his production is covered and also the team gets an upgrade at a couple of positions.

Actually cuddyer has good numbers while in Minny probably better than his COL days.

Maybe Choo is a step behind Jose but not that much....maybe he moves to left and Gose plays right. Gose has a better arm than Jose, faster than Jose so on the D side you actually gain.

Jose is the best chip much like McGriff and Fernandez where back in the glory days which altered the jays fortunes leading to 2 WS wins

 

[canucksfan]

He's good enough against righties that you can live with it though.

Oh for sure but I don't think he can replace Jose because of that reason.

 

[KuleminFan41]

His motive of joining the jays was so that he could give Duquette and the Sox org a first-hand look at how dominant he can be in his mid 30s. Jays didn't spend any money to build around him and so he demanded a trade. Hilarious that the biggest piece in a trade for the best pitcher in the world was David Wells, a guy that absolutely hated Toronto.

And then Wells is of course moved for Mike "damaged goods" Sirotka and a bunch of fodders. Gord Ash, such a good gm...

And people harp on Ricciardi lol.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

He is replaceable. You can find a dozen or so guys that can provide similar production. Now not everyone will be on that friendly contract but if the Jays are all in then money will not matter.

Don't forget dealing Jose fills at least 2 major holes pitching, catching, 2b some combo of that.

its not like Jose is healthy and hitting 50 bombs and batting .300 injuries have kept him off the field the past few years so if you can move him for 2-3 pieces then you do it. There will be a contender out there looking for power willing to acquire Jose hoping he can stay healthy.

Dozen or so guys in the entire guys... hilarious. You make it sound like as if that's nothing. I am sure teams are just jumping at the chance to trade one of the best offensive players in the league because y'know that happens oh so often.

Dealing Jose doesn't guarantee you will get those multiple positional needs you're talking about. Trades like that never happen anyway. Teams don't give up multiple good major league players at various position because they would rather give up prospects -- why? Because they are trying to win.

At best, I think Jays would get one major league player in return + a bunch of prospects for Bautista.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

If the Jays want to something to improve the team then they shouldn't be doing something stupid like trading Bautista. If you need to improve the team, spend the freaking money and fill the holes. They already went the trade route and they came out depleting their farm system in the end so uhh, maybe you should use some money to get players and not waste an asset in trading for one.

If they really need financial flexibility, trade Mark Buehrle -- considering what Lincecum just got and set the market for, yeah I don't think that's too bad.

Otherwise, just rebuild instead of half-assing it. They committed to winning last year and if you want to stick to that, then you know what, do something about it. I'm guessing trading your best player (yes, I still think Jose is our best player) probably isn't the best route if you want to win the world series.

 

[weems]

Tanaka should be our #1 target this offseason.
Darvish, Ryu, Chen. All the asian pitchers coming over are pitching well. We cant afford to deal Sanchez and others in a trade to get a frontline pitcher. Just open the wallets and spend the money Rogers obviously has.