Tkachuk - Stutzle - Batherson VS Caufield - Suzuki - Slafkovsky

[Mrb1p]

Wait what? Why aren’t you using age relative production comparisons here?

Do we only use those when they benefit the Habs player?

I didn't use raw production, the other poster did. I'm sure Stutzle and maybe even the other two could and will finish with more points than Suzuki some years, the opposite may be true too.

But even so, Suzuki is 37 days older than Tkachuk, so I think that works pretty well .

 

[Bileur]

I didn't use raw production, the other poster did. I'm sure Stutzle and maybe even the other two could and will finish with more points than Suzuki some years, the opposite may be true too.

But even so, Suzuki is 37 days older than Tkachuk, so I think that works pretty well .

They didn’t specify raw production either, they were responding to your age relative post, I’d assume they were talking about the same thing as you. Like how Stutzle’s 21 year old production blows anyone else out of the water.

What about Caufield being a year older than Stutzle? How does that work?

 

[JimmyApples]

I think I’d take Stutzle over Suzuki, Slafkovsky and Caufield combined

 

[bud12]

I think I’d take Stutzle over Suzuki, Slafkovsky and Caufield combined

Said no one, not even Stutzle mom

 

[Mrb1p]

They didn’t specify raw production either, they were responding to your age relative post, I’d assume they were talking about the same thing as you. Like how Stutzle’s 21 year old production blows anyone else out of the water.

What about Caufield being a year older than Stutzle? How does that work?

What about Caufield producing pretty much the same numbers as Tkachuk at the same age ?

The comparison is Slaf=Tkachuk, Suzuki = Stutzle and Caufield = Batherson. Im not sure why you want to compare Caufield to Stutzle ? Caufield is probably going to be the Habs 5th best forward when it's all said and done, it's not that big of a deal. I said I'd probably take Batherson ahead of Caufield earlier anyway.

 

[David Suzuki]

Yes they’re second liners, because none of them have proved anything other than that. The ottawa duo has.

the habs trio has two players who have played in the stanley cup finals

the sens trip has never sniffed a playoff game

 

[The90]

the habs trio has two players who have played in the stanley cup finals

the sens trip has never sniffed a playoff game

Literally means nothing lol

 

[Xspyrit]

I have to remind Sens fans that they were saying Norris was better than Suzuki just a few months ago. Maybe there's bias somewhere in here.

Norris scored 47 goals in 91 games while being a top notch 2-way player facing Top competition every night at 21-22 y/o. Until he ran into injury problems. I hope people are not stupidly try to push the narrative that "Norris wasn't that good in the end"

Slaf is 19 and that's the only reason for the production discrepancy. When Tim was 19 he had 29 points in 60 games. Brady had 45. The likelihood he doesn't improve upon is negative. Suzuki has been elite offensively for 3 years now, the offensive support has been ridiculous. He's also about to finish top 5 in selke voting.

29 pts in 53 games... Slaf turned 20 y/o this season, Stutzle turned 20 y/o in January of the FOLLOWING season.

In Stutzle's 90 points season... he started as a 20 y/o

Damn, you're still trying to pull these off lmao

 

[Xspyrit]

Just for fun

Career highs:

83-90-62

Vs

60-75-48

That's like 15-20 points per player on average lol

Stutzle is also still pretty young, he was 20 y/o last season when he hit 90 pts, same age Slafkowski is now

Ottawa has had a lot more support offensively than Montreal did in the past couple of years. We’re also comparing a 26-24-22 years old to a 24-23-19 years old. Not that fair.

Yeah but in reality, Batherson is only 1 year older than Suzuki, Tkachuk only 1 year older than Caufield and Stutzle 2 years older than Slafkovsky

 

[David Suzuki]

Literally means nothing lol

It means they've proven they can be successful in the post season, the Senators haven't even proven they can be successful during the regular season.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I like Suzuki, not sold on Slaf and I dont like players as small as Caufield.
Id rather Ottawa's players by a wide margin

 

[Mrb1p]

Norris scored 47 goals in 91 games while being a top notch 2-way player facing Top competition every night at 21-22 y/o. Until he ran into injury problems. I hope people are not stupidly try to push the narrative that "Norris wasn't that good in the end"



29 pts in 53 games... Slaf turned 20 y/o this season, Stutzle turned 20 y/o in January of the FOLLOWING season.

In Stutzle's 90 points season... he started as a 20 y/o

Damn, you're still trying to pull these off lmao

No, those are his stats for the year in which he was 20, and I did the same for Slaf. I took two overlapping years, thats what was asked, so I did so. It's just that before we make an argument, we probably should check if it fits the narrative were trying to push, in this case, it proved against your narrative.

I never said Norris wasn't good, I know he was good. What he was not is better than Suzuki though.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Stutzle is also still pretty young, he was 20 y/o last season when he hit 90 pts, same age Slafkowski is now



Yeah but in reality, Batherson is only 1 year older than Suzuki, Tkachuk only 1 year older than Caufield and Stutzle 2 years older than Slafkovsky

Yeah they are but 1-2 years of development can be a big difference when we talk about 20-24 years old.

For example, Brady at 20 had 44 in 71 games. At 23 he had 83 in 82 games. Batherson at 22 had 34 in 66 and at 23 had 44 in 46 games. That 1-2 years, especially at that age, can make the world of difference

 

[Bileur]

What about Caufield producing pretty much the same numbers as Tkachuk at the same age ?

Even if we use your age related methodology, since Caufield turned 23 he’s scoring at a ~32 goal ~ 71 point pace.

That’s not « pretty much the same numbers» as Brady’s 35 goal 83 points as a 23 year old.

The comparison is Slaf=Tkachuk, Suzuki = Stutzle and Caufield = Batherson. Im not sure why you want to compare Caufield to Stutzle ? Caufield is probably going to be the Habs 5th best forward when it's all said and done, it's not that big of a deal. I said I'd probably take Batherson ahead of Caufield earlier anyway.

My guy, you’re the one who compared Caufield to Stutzle:

Suzuki leads everyone on scoring by 3 points and Stutzle is 2 points ahead of Caufield?

What are you saying here? That it's actually Suzuki that's more valuable?

I’m just asking about your methodology.

Caufield is probably going to be the Habs 5th best forward when it's all said and done, it's not that big of a deal. I said I'd probably take Batherson ahead of Caufield earlier anyway.

I think that’s fair.

I don’t know who I’d take between those two. Probably depends on team needs.

 

[jbeck5]

Yep I can count. I compared their age season, not draft relative. Tkachuk was 1 day away from being a 2017 pick. It's unfair to use draft relative in this case. But even so, Slaf has outproduced him.

As 19 years old, Slaf had 41 in 73 and Tim had 45 in 83.

Everyone uses their draft years...

There's a reason that a draft year exists in the first place.

Use the draft year.

We're not comparing one players draft +1 year with another's draft +2 year.

That's asinine. Use their draft years like a normal person.

No one else is going to look at your numbers and think any of it.

Might as well restart your argument properly.

 

[ijuka]

That they can get above 80 points mainly.

Pretty much the barrier for a top line player.

I mean. This is just completely ignoring factors such as Suzuki being a defense-first center like Bergeron or Kopitar, while Stützle is an offense-first center.

If you're comparing them in nothing but points, obviously the Senators trio is going to look better.

 

[Xspyrit]

No, those are his stats for the year in which he was 20, and I did the same for Slaf. I took two overlapping years, thats what was asked, so I did so. It's just that before we make an argument, we probably should check if it fits the narrative were trying to push, in this case, it proved against your narrative.

Depends if you do it disingenuously or not, which I don't think surprises any regular here. So before even trying to talk about "my narrative", get a coffee or verify if you were factually wrong or not because I will make you look foolish each and every time.

This is Slafkovsky's 19-20 y/o season where started as a 19 y/o and finished as a 20 y/o. He currently has 19 goals and 48 pts in 80 games

The same season for Stutzle where he started as a 19 y/o and finished as a 20 y/o, he had 22 goals and 58 pts in 79 games

Not only you used the season when Stutzle started as a 18 y/o (but tehcnically didn't since it was a Covid season that started on his 19y/o birthday which is January 15th), but you also mentioned 60 games, which is not the right number. He had 12 goals and 29 pts in 53 games. For the comparable season, Slafkovsky had 4 goals and 10 points in 39 games while clearly not looking NHL level, whereas Stutzle finished 9th in Calder voting.

Not the interesting part is that Stutzle's 20 to 21 y/o season, he had 39 goals and 90 pts in 78 games. Do you think Slafkovsky comes close to that next season?

I never said Norris wasn't good, I know he was good. What he was not is better than Suzuki though.

At 21-22 y/o? He was absolutely better. First, they're the same age from the same draft.

2020-21 + 2021-22 :

Norris : 52 goals, 90 pts in 122 games (0.74 PPG)

Suzuki : 36 goals, 102 pts in 138 games (0.74 PPG)

They had the same PPG but Norris was clearly the best goal scorer while playing on average 2 mins less per game and also had better defensive metrics facing top competition every night

What is even more staggering is that Norris didn't have the same NHL experience as Suzuki so he was a bit timid at first but starting from March 15th 2021, he scored 47 goals in 91 games. He unfortunately ran into serious injuries at the beginning of the following season.

 

[The90]

I mean. This is just completely ignoring factors such as Suzuki being a defense-first center like Bergeron or Kopitar, while Stützle is an offense-first center.

If you're comparing them in nothing but points, obviously the Senators trio is going to look better.

That and I put suzuki as a krejci tier comparison instead of bergeron. I just don’t think they’re as good as you guys are hoping / thinking. They’re just best players currently available and you guys have been starved for forwards for years

 

[Mrb1p]

Depends if you do it disingenuously or not, which I don't think surprises any regular here. So before even trying to talk about "my narrative", get a coffee or verify if you were factually dumb because I will make you look dumb each and every time.

This is Slafkovsky's 19-20 y/o season where started as a 19 y/o and finished as a 20 y/o. He currently has 19 goals and 48 pts in 80 games

The same season for Stutzle where he started as a 19 y/o and finished as a 20 y/o, he had 22 goals and 58 pts in 79 games

Not only you used the season when Stutzle started as a 18 y/o (but tehcnically didn't since it was a Covid season that started on his 19y/o birthday which is January 15th), but you also mentioned 60 games, which is not the right number. He had 12 goals and 29 pts in 53 games. For the comparable season, Slafkovsky had 4 goals and 10 points in 39 games while clearly not looking NHL level, whereas Stutzle finished 9th in Calder voting.

Not the interesting part is that Stutzle's 20 to 21 y/o season, he had 39 goals and 90 pts in 78 games. Do you think Slafkovsky comes close to that next season?



At 21-22 y/o? He was absolutely better. First, they're the same age from the same draft.

2020-21 + 2021-22 :

Norris : 52 goals, 90 pts in 122 games (0.74 PPG)

Suzuki : 36 goals, 102 pts in 138 games (0.74 PPG)

They had the same PPG but Norris was clearly the best goal scorer while playing on average 2 mins less per game and also had better defensive metrics facing top competition every night

What is even more staggering is that Norris didn't have the same NHL experience as Suzuki so he was a bit timid at first but starting from March 15th 2021, he scored 47 goals in 91 games. He unfortunately ran into serious injuries at the beginning of the following season.

Okay Norris was better than Suzuki I'm not even gonna comment on that because it's beyond asinine.

Keep at it. Slaf is of course not producing the same number as Stutzle did in his D+2 I'm not sure that you really made a discovery here, it's written on the DB page. I went further and compared their age seasons because that is what we were talking about.

I'm not sure he comes close to 90. I hope so, it would be quite the jump and would require some luck, like Tim had. I'm sure he can be a better player than Tim though, with his physicality and defensive play a ~70-75 points season should prove just as good. After all, he's also an unicorn , just like Brady.

That and I put suzuki as a krejci tier comparison instead of bergeron. I just don’t think they’re as good as you guys are hoping / thinking. They’re just best players currently available and you guys have been starved for forwards for years

Suzuki and Slaf clearly are that good. Suzuki is the best center this team has had since pre-injury Koivu. Slaf is the best 19 yo the team has had since... probably Roy.

Couldn’t the same be said about the Sens though? Since Pizza left there hasn't been anything talent wise. It's been a revolving door of 3rd liners carried by Karlsson. We had the same thing which is funny.

 

[ijuka]

Suzuki is the best center this team has had since pre-injury Koivu.

In 1996-1997 pre-injury Koivu at age 22 scored 38 points in 29 games and I believe was leading the league in scoring before the game in which he got injured, over names such as Paul Kariya, Teemu Selänne, Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, etc.

You wonder what his career could have looked like.

 

[Mrb1p]

In 1996-1997 pre-injury Koivu at age 22 scored 38 points in 29 games and I believe was leading the league in scoring before the game in which he got injured, over names such as Paul Kariya, Teemu Selänne, Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, etc.

You wonder what his career could have looked like.

Yes, exactly. He was 3rd in scoring when he went down.

 

[Xspyrit]

Okay Norris was better than Suzuki I'm not even gonna comment on that because it's beyond asinine.

Damn, you gotta be the most mesmerizing poster on this site, or one of the most. Look at that number of emojis for something that you just read the facts :laugh I doubt anyone is dumb enough here to take you even a little bit seriously

52- 36 = 16 more goals in 16 less games but yeah Suzuki was better. I guess it was because Suzuki 0.74 PPG was better than Norris 0.74 PPG?

Keep at it. Slaf is of course not producing the same number as Stutzle did in his D+2 I'm not sure that you really made a discovery here, it's written on the DB page. I went further and compared their age seasons because that is what we were talking about.

Their age seasons? What? Stutzle's birthday is on January 15th, Slafkovský birthday is on March 30th. So you think it's smarter to make a comparison when there's a 10 months difference? I mean, like I said disingenuity, I refuse to accept that anyone can be that dumb

I'm not sure he comes close to 90. I hope so, it would be quite the jump and would require some luck, like Tim had. I'm sure he can be a better player than Tim though, with his physicality and defensive play a ~70-75 points season should prove just as good. After all, he's also an unicorn , just like Brady.

Ok, let's keep track at Slafkovský vs Stutzle going forward then

Couldn’t the same be said about the Sens though? Since Pizza left there hasn't been anything talent wise. It's been a revolving door of 3rd liners carried by Karlsson. We had the same thing which is funny.

lol and you keep going with your f***ing non-sense

ok let's say the end of the pizza line was after 2007-08, since 2008-09, ranked by PPG seasons :

Matt Duchene 1.16 PPG in 2018-19
Tim Stutzle 1.15 PPG in 2022-23
Mark Stone 1.07 PPG in 2017-18
Mark Stone 1.05 PPG in 2018-19
Jason Spezza 1.05 PPG in 2011-12
Daniel Alfredsson 1.01 PPG in 2009-10
Brady Tkachuk 1.01 PPG in 2022-23
Erik Karlsson 1.00 PPG in 2015-16
Claude Giroux 0.96 in 2022-23
Erik Karlsson 0.96 in in 2011-12
Drake Batherson 0.96 in in 2021-22
Jason Spezza 0.95 in 2009-10
Daniel Alfredsson 0.94 in 2008-09
etc

In the meantime in Montreal :

Nick Suzuki 0.95 in 2023-24
PK Subban 0.90 in 2012-13 (only 42 games)

I mean, there's been 18 better PPG seasons in Ottawa than Subban since... lmao

 

[Mrb1p]

Damn, you gotta be the most mesmerizing poster on this site, or one of the most. Look at that number of emojis for something that you just read the facts :laugh I doubt anyone is dumb enough here to take you even a little bit seriously

52- 36 = 16 more goals in 16 less games but yeah Suzuki was better. I guess it was because Suzuki 0.74 PPG was better than Norris 0.74 PPG?



Their age seasons? What? Stutzle's birthday is on January 15th, Slafkovský birthday is on March 30th. So you think it's smarter to make a comparison when there's a 10 months difference? I mean, like I said disingenuity, I refuse to accept that anyone can be that dumb



Ok, let's keep track at Slafkovský vs Stutzle going forward then



lol and you keep going with your f***ing non-sense

ok let's say the end of the pizza line was after 2007-08, since 2008-09, ranked by PPG seasons :

Matt Duchene 1.16 PPG in 2018-19
Tim Stutzle 1.15 PPG in 2022-23
Mark Stone 1.07 PPG in 2017-18
Mark Stone 1.05 PPG in 2018-19
Jason Spezza 1.05 PPG in 2011-12
Daniel Alfredsson 1.01 PPG in 2009-10
Brady Tkachuk 1.01 PPG in 2022-23
Erik Karlsson 1.00 PPG in 2015-16
Claude Giroux 0.96 in 2022-23
Erik Karlsson 0.96 in in 2011-12
Drake Batherson 0.96 in in 2021-22
Jason Spezza 0.95 in 2009-10
Daniel Alfredsson 0.94 in 2008-09
etc

In the meantime in Montreal :

Nick Suzuki 0.95 in 2023-24
PK Subban 0.90 in 2012-13 (only 42 games)

I mean, there's been 18 better PPG seasons in Ottawa than Subban since... lmao

The 19 years age season would go from birthday to birthday for each player. It's not that hard to understand.

Did you just use two members of the pizza line twice when I said since the departure of the pizza line?

 

[gritdash60]

If Slafkovsky turns into the player i thought he would after seeing him in Finland, this could be the other way, but right now its Sens trio easily.

 

[The90]

Okay Norris was better than Suzuki I'm not even gonna comment on that because it's beyond asinine.

Keep at it. Slaf is of course not producing the same number as Stutzle did in his D+2 I'm not sure that you really made a discovery here, it's written on the DB page. I went further and compared their age seasons because that is what we were talking about.

I'm not sure he comes close to 90. I hope so, it would be quite the jump and would require some luck, like Tim had. I'm sure he can be a better player than Tim though, with his physicality and defensive play a ~70-75 points season should prove just as good. After all, he's also an unicorn , just like Brady.


Suzuki and Slaf clearly are that good. Suzuki is the best center this team has had since pre-injury Koivu. Slaf is the best 19 yo the team has had since... probably Roy.

Couldn’t the same be said about the Sens though? Since Pizza left there hasn't been anything talent wise. It's been a revolving door of 3rd liners carried by Karlsson. We had the same thing which is funny.

That’s my point though, comparing them to the previous teams isn’t exactly impressive. Montreal has had 1 80 point scorer in over 30 years now. Not exactly a high bar