Tinordi K-O...concussions alert

[Hoople]

But banning fighting is not solely about concussions. That's not my point. My point for Tinordi was that he should not think he has to do that. He should not participate in staged fights. Habs should tell him to not be involved against players who are lifetime AHL'er who want to make a name for themselves. But it also gives players concussions. So banning fighting will reduce the concussions that happens during fighting...Then, there are other aspects that could be worked on. Yet, we've seen fighting change over the course of all those years since the bench clearing era. The only change we're seeing for hitting, and it makes sense, is all about head being primary point of contact. You still can hit incredibly hard. Just don't make the head the primary point of contact. Of course, there are also boarding and charging...but that always existed as well. There's a limit to what you can do for the hitting part.

You are missing an important factor in this discussion.

I am sure Tinordi enjoys a good fight. And with enjoying the fisticuffs, there comes a time when you will get whipped. That still does not take away from the thrill of a fight.

His teeth will be fixed, his cuts will heal and he will still enjoy dropping the gloves for whatever reason he comes up with in that split second it takes to decide to go or not.

 

[ECWHSWI]

You are missing an important factor in this discussion.

I am sure Tinordi enjoys a good fight. And with enjoying the fisticuffs, there comes a time when you will get whipped. That still does not take away from the thrill of a fight.

His teeth will be fixed, his cuts will heal and he will still enjoy dropping the gloves for whatever reason he comes up with in that split second it takes to decide to go or not.

and you base that on what exactly ? I mean, you have "something"... you wouldnt be making that up right ?

 

[lamp9post]

Yes and we can minimize ed the more prevalent risk by getting rid of checking, but YOU won't do it because YOU think that checking I'd somehow inherent to nhl jockey but. Surprise surprise, the parts you don't like are deemed dispensable, by you and in direct contrast to the will of the players.

Yes accidents happen, but a fight is not an accident, it's a mutual choice between 2 players fully aware of the consequences. That you wouldn't, or more egregiously want to prevent them from doing it because YOU wouldn't is moot.

They aren't fighting for your entertainment, and to insist that they stop to maximize your enjoyment requires a near pathological sense of self entitlement.

I don't like Oregon going wide spread on some PAT's. Are they obligated to stop if I whine incessantly and invoke ridiculous analogies?

Where to begin...

First of all, I don't consider participating in this discussion to be 'whining' and I'm not obligating anyone to do anything. I'm simply expressing my view on the subject as I'm entitled to do. Why do you think your entitled to your view, but you think I have a heightened sense of entitlement for simply stating mine? I don't need your permission or your agreement to post on the subject, thank you very much.

So yes, I happen to think that checking is part of the game and fighting isn't. It's really not that crazy an opinion if you remember that fighting is a penalty and checking is not. I realize that you can never fully prevent fighting - it happens in all sports from time to time. I just think that the penalty for fighting should be more severe in order to discourage it.

Why am I 'pathologically self-entitled' for wanting to enjoy the game I love even more? There are plenty of people out there who want scoring to increase. Are they pathologically self-entitled as well for wanting to make the game more entertaining? Rules are constantly changed to make the game better. I guess everyone who seeks to improve the game is a self-absorbed narcissist according to you. You must have been livid at those self-absorbed people who decided to move to hybrid icing because they selfishly didn't want to see any more broken bones as a result of a meaningless race to the boards.

 

[Stoneburg]

Interestingly, THN named Tinner the third best fighter in the "heavyweight" class:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/thns-best-nhl-fighters-by-weight-class/

 

[lamp9post]

Oh, sure, and I imagine it's hard for them to look into their mothers' eyes and say "I'm off to... play hockey mama, and I might not come back the same..." with the risks associated with possibly fighting casting an impervious fog of doubt upon their spirit as they begrudgingly trudge towards their gladiatorial stall in the bowels of the arena...

Or maybe we can do without the projecting and the knowing what's best for everyone else that pervades society in general, but this topic in particular. That's what I think on the matter, anyway.

Well, now that you've resorted to hyperbole and mockery it's clear that you have nothing left to say on the subject.

 

[Hoople]

and you base that on what exactly ? I mean, you have "something"... you wouldnt be making that up right ?

OK. Have it your way then.

Tinordi obviously hates fighting and runs away from them a lot. Too bad he is not that fast on his skates and gets caught so he is forced to fight.

Better?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Where to begin...

First of all, I don't consider participating in this discussion to be 'whining' and I'm not obligating anyone to do anything. I'm simply expressing my view on the subject as I'm entitled to do. Why do you think your entitled to your view, but you think I have a heightened sense of entitlement for simply stating mine? I don't need your permission or your agreement to post on the subject, thank you very much.

So yes, I happen to think that checking is part of the game and fighting isn't. It's really not that crazy an opinion if you remember that fighting is a penalty and checking is not. I realize that you can never fully prevent fighting - it happens in all sports from time to time. I just think that the penalty for fighting should be more severe in order to discourage it.

Why am I 'pathologically self-entitled' for wanting to enjoy the game I love even more? There are plenty of people out there who want scoring to increase. Are they pathologically self-entitled as well for wanting to make the game more entertaining? Rules are constantly changed to make the game better. I guess everyone who seeks to improve the game is a self-absorbed narcissist according to you. You must have been livid at those self-absorbed people who decided to move to hybrid icing because they selfishly didn't want to see any more broken bones as a result of a meaningless race to the boards.

You know, it'd be fine to just share the opinion that you'd like hockey more if there were no fights. Just don't present it (like most people sharing the opinion do) in a way that presumes to claim player safety or motivations as legitimate concerns, or that the game would be "better" without it because of anyone outside the game's tastes, or understanding of safety or "evolution". It's annoying politics that doesn't deserve the inflation of importance that one side of the debate is trying to instill, thanks to traction generated by the media.

Now, back to Tinordi. How's he doing?

 

[Hoople]

Where to begin...

First of all, I don't consider participating in this discussion to be 'whining' and I'm not obligating anyone to do anything. I'm simply expressing my view on the subject as I'm entitled to do. Why do you think your entitled to your view, but you think I have a heightened sense of entitlement for simply stating mine? I don't need your permission or your agreement to post on the subject, thank you very much.

So yes, I happen to think that checking is part of the game and fighting isn't. It's really not that crazy an opinion if you remember that fighting is a penalty and checking is not. I realize that you can never fully prevent fighting - it happens in all sports from time to time. I just think that the penalty for fighting should be more severe in order to discourage it.

Why am I 'pathologically self-entitled' for wanting to enjoy the game I love even more? There are plenty of people out there who want scoring to increase. Are they pathologically self-entitled as well for wanting to make the game more entertaining? Rules are constantly changed to make the game better. I guess everyone who seeks to improve the game is a self-absorbed narcissist according to you. You must have been livid at those self-absorbed people who decided to move to hybrid icing because they selfishly didn't want to see any more broken bones as a result of a meaningless race to the boards.

Ask the players. We only state opinions. They play the game.

 

[ECWHSWI]

OK. Have it your way then.

Tinordi obviously hates fighting and runs away from them a lot. Too bad he is not that fast on his skates and gets caught so he is forced to fight.

Better?

well, you seem so sure he loves it... please, tell us all how you know that

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Well, now that you've resorted to hyperbole and mockery it's clear that you have nothing left to say on the subject.

Oh no, there's plenty more poetry and dramatic tales that I can contribute. They're not all as scary as the 'Tales from the Fighters' Crypt' series, but I'll try to make them at least equally as elaborate.

 

[lamp9post]

You know, it'd be fine to just share the opinion that you'd like hockey more if there were no fights. Just don't present it (like most people sharing the opinion do) in a way that presumes to claim player safety or motivations as legitimate concerns, or that the game would be "better" without it because of anyone outside the game's tastes, or understanding of safety or "evolution". It's annoying politics that doesn't deserve the inflation of importance that one side of the debate is trying to instill, thanks to traction generated by the media.

Now, back to Tinordi. How's he doing?

And why exactly would a discussion about the validity of fighting in hockey not include player safety concerns?

Please explain why you think such concerns are a facade. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon here solely as it pertains to fighting. I would also like to see players wear visors and kevlar socks. I have also argued in the past for an unnecessary roughness' type penalty that would penalize predatory intents to injure (i.e. Matt Cooke on Savard) that are otherwise clean according to the rulebook. I was in favour of the hybrid icing rule change. I don't like seeing gruesome injuries occur for any reason, so when there is an opportunity to reduce the risk of them occurring, I support it.

It is a shame you feel that arguments in opposition to your own are "annoying politics", but you'll just have to deal with it if you want to participate in the discussion.

 

[LastRide]

Interestingly, THN named Tinner the third best fighter in the "heavyweight" class:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/thns-best-nhl-fighters-by-weight-class/

They have Prust at #1 for Lightweights...lol

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

And why exactly would a discussion about the validity of fighting in hockey not include player safety concerns?

Please explain why you think such concerns are a facade. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon here solely as it pertains to fighting. I would also like to see players wear visors and kevlar socks. I have also argued in the past for an unnecessary roughness' type penalty that would penalize predatory intents to injure (i.e. Matt Cooke on Savard) that are otherwise clean according to the rulebook. I was in favour of the hybrid icing rule change. I don't like seeing gruesome injuries occur for any reason, so when there is an opportunity to reduce the risk of them occurring, I support it.

It is a shame you feel that arguments in opposition to your own are "annoying politics", but you'll just have to deal with it if you want to participate in the discussion.

It's politics because it's entirely lobbying of a special interest group from outside of an organization lobbying for special consideration/change, not because it's in conflict with my opinion. That's what makes it annoying on at least some level though, sure.

Fighting doesn't have to prove its legitimacy in the game, though. It has always been there, and always embraced by the players as a way to keep control over the game without being limited by the control/authority of the officials among many other things. GMs, despite the risk to their assets, typically embrace its place in the game, and the league doesn't remove combatants from the game nor does it crack down on repeat offenders unless they way they conduct themselves doing it falls outside of an allowed "code".

It's not even about the "legitimacy" of safety player concerns (there are LOTS of things that are legitimately unsafe about professional hockey), it's the actual relevance that you, and the lobbyists, are struggling with. Changing the game simply for changing tastes isn't a compelling argument imo, either, as the game continues to grow regardless, and fighting contributes very extremely negligibly to the overall cost of injuries or man games missed despite the frequency with which they happen.

 

[Whitesnake]

Link? This isn't the first time you've brought it up, so I'm wondering where something like that would even come from. I think you're making it up.

But of course I do. I'm making everything up to make a point. So no, sorry I don't have a link on NHL.com that says that Plekanec is on top of that list. And even if I would find one, you'd be responding that it's the opinion of one guy. But for somebody like me who visits most other team's boards, read a whole lot of newspapers etc., I'd say that I don't invent things. But if you prefer to think that I do....so be it.

 

[lamp9post]

It's politics because it's entirely lobbying of a special interest group from outside of an organization lobbying for special consideration/change, not because it's in conflict with my opinion. That's what makes it annoying on at least some level though, sure.

Fighting doesn't have to prove its legitimacy in the game, though. It has always been there, and always embraced by the players as a way to keep control over the game without being limited by the control/authority of the officials among many other things. GMs, despite the risk to their assets, typically embrace its place in the game, and the league doesn't remove combatants from the game nor does it crack down on repeat offenders unless they way they conduct themselves doing it falls outside of an allowed "code".

It's not even about the "legitimacy" of safety player concerns (there are LOTS of things that are legitimately unsafe about professional hockey), it's the actual relevance that you, and the lobbyists, are struggling with. Changing the game simply for changing tastes isn't a compelling argument imo, either, as the game continues to grow regardless, and fighting contributes very extremely negligibly to the overall cost of injuries or man games missed despite the frequency with which they happen.

I'll be brief as I need to sleep. There is a difference between political lobbying and stating an opinion on a message board. I've read many posts by you that criticize Therien - is that not also lobbying by your definition?

Fighting has always been a penalty in the game. It is no doubt part of the culture of the game, but keeping it around 'just because it's always been that way' isn't much of an argument either.

 

[Whitesnake]

I love whitesnakes posts usually, so I didn't bother countering it, but I have no idea what he is talking about. Pleks doesn't fight, it's not Pleks that would looking to retaliate using his stick if he weren't allowed to fight. I'm more worried about hte loose canons that lose their temper and can no longer use their fists as an outlet, seems barbaric, but there's no shortage of players playing with a high level of emotion who would struggle to just turn the other cheek and skate away when they feel provoked. I don't know if stick-work would increase or not, but to dismiss it outright is silly imo.

The loose canons that would lose their temper and do it because there are no fighting would be crushed by a hefty suspension. As far as Pleks antics, we've heard it from plenty of different teams, fanbases and journalists. But my main point is all about accountability. Who needs to be accountable? The talented guys? Of course not, they will never be attacked and asked to fight unless....they are a little bigger like Subban and Emelin who are asked to be "accountable" because of their fair but hard hits. So accountability is just plain stupidity. Gallagher hits the opponent's goalies...where's his accountability? How many fights does he has to his credit? Kreider crushed 3 or 4 goalies so far....when did he has to be accountable? And so on.....In the end, fighting exist 'cause for whatever trait of the game that is quite old, it takes time to remove. Yet, it's going in that direction.

Even Mark Tinordi who made a living out of crushing people's skulls said that we won't see fighting in 5 years. I don't believe him....I think it will take much longer than that...but hey, he's not a simple poster...he's a NHL that used to be a great fighter. Mark doesn't want to see his son fight in the AHL....it's not worth it for the kind of money he's making....While that's a reason that is pretty simple...the idea behind it makes total sense. It's not worth it for Tinordi to fight while the kid WOULD be a NHL'er even if fighting is removed from the game. No need to get into scrap for wannabees when there's actually tons of other things to work on. One thing is sure....if Tinordi would KO'ed everybody he fights with....but yet keeps making stupid mistakes in his zone....does he play in the NHL? But then, if he never fight anymore but then, is really stable in his zone, he clears the net and does a good job with his first pass....is he now a better candidate for us? In the end, no need to waste your time fighting goons when you should be playing hockey instead. But then again...don't take my word....take his dad's. Or Pierre Lebrun's a respected journalist that has seen quite a few things so far in his career.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I'll be brief as I need to sleep. There is a difference between political lobbying and stating an opinion on a message board. I've read many posts by you that criticize Therien - is that not also lobbying by your definition?

Can't be compared to the anti-fighting movement. Not even close.

Fighting has always been a penalty in the game. It is no doubt part of the culture of the game, but keeping it around 'just because it's always been that way' isn't much of an argument either.

No, but the various reasons you hear for keeping it from inside the game are, imo. And most of the defenses against those lobbying on behalf of "player safety" (again, by some who think they know what's better for others - always with "best intentions" historically, mind you), specifically, are obviously valid, imo. The concerns about affecting the ability of the game to grow (and become increasingly profitable) are obviously largely unfounded.

And yes, it's a penalty. Not just a penalty, a major penalty. But the larger penalties result from stepping unacceptably far outside "the code", importantly (instigating, being a 3rd man in, fighting an official, etc.). Also, the element of "repeating the offense" is not even considered (for good reason, I might add), but (unfortunately) the forum of "popular opinion" has the greatest chance of making inroads on that element in particular.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

But of course I do. I'm making everything up to make a point. So no, sorry I don't have a link on NHL.com that says that Plekanec is on top of that list. And even if I would find one, you'd be responding that it's the opinion of one guy. But for somebody like me who visits most other team's boards, read a whole lot of newspapers etc., I'd say that I don't invent things. But if you prefer to think that I do....so be it.

Man, your whole hypothetical situation we were supposed to worry about started around the premise of something you made up, and we're supposed to do what with it, again? Links to ANY of these conversations would be a start in trying to figure out how you arrived at the conclusion that "Plekanec is the worst when it comes to slashing/cross-checking". But if you can't even link some looney in the more-or-less acceptable niches of the media talking about this, I'm gonna chalk it up to mushrooms, or an agenda, or lack of sleep, or spending too much time on the Bruins board, or something.

 

[Mr. Hab]

Mark Tinordi (father of Jarred) said recently that at $65 000 (Jarred's AHL salary) Jarred Tinordi shouldn't have to fight so often (especially staged fights VS AHL goons, imo). Mark Tinordi also said he hopes Jarred takes weeks off from fighting. Instead (of fighting so often and risking further serious injury and VS AHL goons, imo), he hopes Jarred will work more on improving his game (not boxing game) and thinks this is the way he will be called back to play with the Habs.

Mark believes Jarred would already be playing full time in the NHL if he weren't part of such a good team (Habs) with lots of D-depth.
He also feels that his son should have received more games (50games,etc... VS only 10games) to develop better. Mark said Jarred is in his last year of his contract (RFA) and it's up to him to decide if Mtl is the best place for him.

Yes!! Yes!! Montreal is the best place for Jarred Tinordi...yes!! And, I fully agree with the above opinions of Mark Tinordi, except for the developing part...I'm a huuuuuuge fan of Tinordi's potential but he did seem a bit raw and inconsistent (here and there) when he was playing with the Habs early in the season and he wasn't getting lots of ice-time (not good for confidence) because of it (too many errors could worsen a rookie's confidence/development,etc). I prefer he gets more ice-time with Hamilton and then gets the FULL green light and ice-time when he gets called up. Green light = confidence, imo. Look at Beaulieu...he did not look good (was too raw, not confident, imo) a couple of months ago...now it looks like the Habs have given him the full green light and/or Beaulieu has somehow found a way to be VERY confident out there...all of a sudden (don't know where it came from?!).
Tinordi needs some of that confidence and the sky is the limit for J.Tinordi, imo.
Of course...I do agree with Mark Tinordi...the Habs have to give every opportunity for J.Tinordi to succeed 'cause J.Tinordi has so much potential...should be a workhorse machine for our Habs if he finds that confidence. I really hope J.Tinordi gets that green light from the Habs sooner than later...if not playoffs 2015, then season 2015-2016 and 2016 playoffs.


(part of the article...Mark Tinordi's quotes...below in french).

------------------------------------- ------------------------------

http://www2.985sports.ca/hockey/nouvelles/tinordi-veut-revenir-au-jeu-vendredi-404619.html

''... J’ai moi-même subi le K.-O. à quelques reprises et je lui ai tout simplement dit d’éviter les combats dans les prochaines semaines.»

Mark Tinordi croit que son fils n’a pas à jeter les gants dans la Ligue américaine alors qu’il ne gagne que 65 000$. Selon le paternel, c’est en améliorant son jeu d’ensemble qu’il retrouvera sa place chez le Tricolore.

D’ailleurs, Jarred Tinordi serait déjà dans la LNH s’il n’évoluait pas dans une aussi bonne équipe que le Canadien, a poursuivi son père.

«Cette situation est difficile pour lui. Je crois qu’il se serait mieux développé si on lui avait donné 50 ou 60 matchs et non seulement 10. Il est à sa dernière année de contrat et ce sera à lui de décider si Montréal est le bon endroit pour lui.» ...''


----------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------

P.S.:

Not only that but mouthguards can help with concussions and head injuries by cushioning blows to the chin or jaw.

Good post/info. I really hope Jarred Tinordi puts a mouthguard on.

 

[Compile]

You are missing an important factor in this discussion.

I am sure Tinordi enjoys a good fight. And with enjoying the fisticuffs, there comes a time when you will get whipped. That still does not take away from the thrill of a fight.

His teeth will be fixed, his cuts will heal and he will still enjoy dropping the gloves for whatever reason he comes up with in that split second it takes to decide to go or not.

And the irreversible brain damage is such a treat.

 

[Mr. Hab]

Well maybe we can keep all the debate about fighting in this thread and maybe keep the other one to actually talk about Tinordi...

+1
(or put all the pro-fighting VS anti-fighting arguments in the FIGHT thread)

 

[Mr. Hab]

Somebody should change the name of the thread cause according to Mark Tinordi, Jarred's dad, he's got no concussion symptoms, this thread is pure assumption, non factual when it comes to concussions

+1....

 

[habsfanatics*]

The loose canons that would lose their temper and do it because there are no fighting would be crushed by a hefty suspension. As far as Pleks antics, we've heard it from plenty of different teams, fanbases and journalists. But my main point is all about accountability. Who needs to be accountable? The talented guys? Of course not, they will never be attacked and asked to fight unless....they are a little bigger like Subban and Emelin who are asked to be "accountable" because of their fair but hard hits. So accountability is just plain stupidity. Gallagher hits the opponent's goalies...where's his accountability? How many fights does he has to his credit? Kreider crushed 3 or 4 goalies so far....when did he has to be accountable? And so on.....In the end, fighting exist 'cause for whatever trait of the game that is quite old, it takes time to remove. Yet, it's going in that direction.

Even Mark Tinordi who made a living out of crushing people's skulls said that we won't see fighting in 5 years. I don't believe him....I think it will take much longer than that...but hey, he's not a simple poster...he's a NHL that used to be a great fighter. Mark doesn't want to see his son fight in the AHL....it's not worth it for the kind of money he's making....While that's a reason that is pretty simple...the idea behind it makes total sense. It's not worth it for Tinordi to fight while the kid WOULD be a NHL'er even if fighting is removed from the game. No need to get into scrap for wannabees when there's actually tons of other things to work on. One thing is sure....if Tinordi would KO'ed everybody he fights with....but yet keeps making stupid mistakes in his zone....does he play in the NHL? But then, if he never fight anymore but then, is really stable in his zone, he clears the net and does a good job with his first pass....is he now a better candidate for us? In the end, no need to waste your time fighting goons when you should be playing hockey instead. But then again...don't take my word....take his dad's. Or Pierre Lebrun's a respected journalist that has seen quite a few things so far in his career.

I don't disagree about Tinordi, I'm not sure where you've gotten that from. In fact, I said myself he needs to focus on hockey, if the best highlights of him are throwing punches, he's in trouble.

As far as heavy suspensions, we've seen the the department of player safety at work, they're not something as a player I would put alot of trust in.

 

[Wats]

And the irreversible brain damage is such a treat.

That is what will help him forget the last fight.

 

[Whitesnake]

Man, your whole hypothetical situation we were supposed to worry about started around the premise of something you made up, and we're supposed to do what with it, again? Links to ANY of these conversations would be a start in trying to figure out how you arrived at the conclusion that "Plekanec is the worst when it comes to slashing/cross-checking". But if you can't even link some looney in the more-or-less acceptable niches of the media talking about this, I'm gonna chalk it up to mushrooms, or an agenda, or lack of sleep, or spending too much time on the Bruins board, or something.

This is just laughable really. So you don't like my Plekanec example....fine. I know what I've read and saw over the years. And don't really care if you believe me or not. So how about Subban? He talks a lot on the ice...do you need a link for that? Gallagher drives the net and hits the goalie often...need a link? Marchand is one of the most hated guy in the league with tons of cheap shots....Where's his accountability? How the **** do you stop at having a link when the idea of my point is that TONS of people in the league do dirty stuff and yet do NOT have to be accountable for it. And the fighting lobby and lovers like you says that fighting makes players accountable...well not really as those players rarely have to drop them. But no....we are more eager to see players to be accountable for a fair hit. What's great too is that for you, only the anti-fighting people are part of a lobby or have an agenda. CLEARLY, the ones who still want that in the game don't have a lobby to be a part with or don't have an agenda.....Of course not. Great world you are living in. Was fun bro. But then, it's so not the place to talk about this....yet you keep responding. I guess that to do what YOU wanted.....somebody will have to stop responding.....I'll give you the first try.....not expecting a response.