Time To Officially Panic Thread

[leafs in five]

In the past decade:

Turned over Rosters
Turned over Coachs
Turned over training staff (Goaltending, PK, PP)
Turned over GMs
Turned over Management
Turned over ****ing ownership

Seriously wtf? the only constant is Leafs fans and Toronto.

Pat Quinn got fired as Leafs GM but remained on as a lame duck coach who was eventually fired by a GM in JFJ who was trying to save his job. Maurice is hired by this GM who will be fired and replaced by an interim GM in Cliff Fletcher, himself a former Leafs GM who had just been fired in Phoenix. Fletcher fires Maurice, hires Wilson, is allowed to make the Leafs' highest pick in ages, trades Alex Steen before ceding the reigns to Brian Burke, staying on as an adviser.

Burke eventually fires Ron Wilson to save his job and hires Randy Carlyle as his coach. Former-former GM Cliff Fletcher signs an extension to stay on as a front office adviser. Burke is eventually fired and replaced by his assistant GM Dave Nonis who had a presence in all of Burke's moves, who even got public credit for making the Phaneuf trade happen. Nonis hires as his assistant GM Claude Loiselle who was hired in Toronto by Burke for whom Loiselle previously worked as a scout in Anaheim. While he does not require a new contract Nonis gets an extension after the Leafs make the playoffs in a 48-game season with a roster consisting of players picked and acquired by Burke and Ryan O'Byrne for a month.

this is "turnover" in Leafland. I am going to take a guess on how things keep turning over:

Nonis fires Carlyle to save his job, hires another coach before being fired and replaced by a GM, maybe Claude Loiselle? Cliff Flether signs a multi-year extension to stay on as senior adviser. There are a lot of good hockey minds in this front office, someone agrees with someone else, two hockey guys who both know the game, know what it takes to win. Why throw the baby out with the bath water? new GM spend a year or two with Carlyle's replacement before firing him to save own job and hiring another coach before being fired.

 

[JackJ]

Yes but if the team is looking around the room and looking at a 1million dollar UFA reclamation project as some sort of leader, an example setter, well, ohhhhhh boy.

Regarding toughness within the top six.

Which group of six are tougher:

Eberle, Hall, Hemsky, Gagner, Yakupov, RNH
or
Kessel, Jvr, Bozak, Lupul, Kadri, Raymond

A small edge goes to the Leafs. Beyond pathetic.For years we've mocked the Habs and now we've become them.

Either swap out the top six for Carlyle or swap out Carlyle for a run and gun coach. Either way we're ****ed.

 

[The CyNick]

Regarding toughness within the top six.

Which group of six are tougher:

Eberle, Hall, Hemsky, Gagner, Yakupov, RNH
or
Kessel, Jvr, Bozak, Lupul, Kadri, Raymond

A small edge goes to the Leafs. Beyond pathetic.For years we've mocked the Habs and now we've become them.


Either swap out the top six for Carlyle or swap out Carlyle for a run and gun coach. Either way we're ****ed.

Which was Wilson, and we were worse with him.

You will never get back equal value if you trade our top six. But I'm not sure run and gun is a winning style. Philly was paying more up and down, they sucked. Brought in a defensive coach and now they look good.

Our group doesn't have the capabilities to hold onto the puck for long periods of time. So you either take a step back and trade some of the softer guys for lesser talent or you just try to bring in a different voice and hope it makes a difference

 

[leafs in five]

Which was Wilson, and we were worse with him.

this is becoming even more of a dubious claim.

 

[The CyNick]

this is becoming even more of a dubious claim.

Lol fair play

 

[Mess]

So gut the team when you are 10-4? Or fire the coach? Or GM?

You forgot options like fix the problem, or do nothing and let the problem fix you.

 

[Mess]

In the past decade:

Turned over Rosters
Turned over Coachs
Turned over training staff (Goaltending, PK, PP)
Turned over GMs
Turned over Management
Turned over ****ing ownership

Seriously wtf? the only constant is Leafs fans and Toronto.

You missed the most important constant from your list and its a big one and that is the rebuild plan itself.

Draft schmaft has been constant throughout the past decade with MLSE constantly believing they can short-cut their way by buying success through UFA and Trade using their money, and ignoring the most critical building historically tried and tested method of building a team patiently through strong drafting and developing it internally.

Changing Coaches, GMs, Ownership and players never addresses the real problem of a faulty blueprint that is being followed. Basically the Leafs need a organizational methodology change in operating practices on how they go about conducting business.

Neither the fans nor the location in which they're operating is the blame for the errors of their own ways.

 

[leafs in five]

You missed the most important constant from your list and its a big one and that is the rebuild plan itself.

Draft schmaft has been constant throughout the past decade with MLSE constantly believing they can short-cut their way by buying success through UFA and Trade using their money, and ignoring the most critical building historically tried and tested method of building a team patiently through strong drafting and developing it internally.

Changing Coaches, GMs, Ownership and players never addresses the real problem of a faulty blueprint that is being followed. Basically the Leafs need a organizational methodology change in operating practices on how they go about conducting business.

Neither the fans nor the location in which they're operating is the blame for the errors of their own ways.

ya there hasn't been a fundamental change in the way the Leafs operate, for all the turnover that's occurred behind the bench and in the GM seat.

probably because enough people always hang around from the previous discredited regimes.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Regarding toughness within the top six.

Which group of six are tougher:

Eberle, Hall, Hemsky, Gagner, Yakupov, RNH
or
Kessel, Jvr, Bozak, Lupul, Kadri, Raymond

A small edge goes to the Leafs. Beyond pathetic.For years we've mocked the Habs and now we've become them.

Either swap out the top six for Carlyle or swap out Carlyle for a run and gun coach. Either way we're ****ed.

I really dont see the Leafs top six with the edge. They are equally soft. Edmonton however has the edge in age/skill and ceiling. Leafs top 6 is awful and should be booted.

 

[sommervr]

Pat Quinn got fired as Leafs GM but remained on as a lame duck coach who was eventually fired by a GM in JFJ who was trying to save his job. Maurice is hired by this GM who will be fired and replaced by an interim GM in Cliff Fletcher, himself a former Leafs GM who had just been fired in Phoenix. Fletcher fires Maurice, hires Wilson, is allowed to make the Leafs' highest pick in ages, trades Alex Steen before ceding the reigns to Brian Burke, staying on as an adviser.

Burke eventually fires Ron Wilson to save his job and hires Randy Carlyle as his coach. Former-former GM Cliff Fletcher signs an extension to stay on as a front office adviser. Burke is eventually fired and replaced by his assistant GM Dave Nonis who had a presence in all of Burke's moves, who even got public credit for making the Phaneuf trade happen. Nonis hires as his assistant GM Claude Loiselle who was hired in Toronto by Burke for whom Loiselle previously worked as a scout in Anaheim. While he does not require a new contract Nonis gets an extension after the Leafs make the playoffs in a 48-game season with a roster consisting of players picked and acquired by Burke and Ryan O'Byrne for a month.

this is "turnover" in Leafland. I am going to take a guess on how things keep turning over:

Nonis fires Carlyle to save his job, hires another coach before being fired and replaced by a GM, maybe Claude Loiselle? Cliff Flether signs a multi-year extension to stay on as senior adviser. There are a lot of good hockey minds in this front office, someone agrees with someone else, two hockey guys who both know the game, know what it takes to win. Why throw the baby out with the bath water? new GM spend a year or two with Carlyle's replacement before firing him to save own job and hiring another coach before being fired.

I wish this board had a rec button.

 

[Mess]

I really dont see the Leafs top six with the edge. They are equally soft. Edmonton however has the edge in age/skill and ceiling. Leafs top 6 is awful and should be booted.

The Clarkson signing was predicted and influenced by that very fact of a very soft top 6 which motivated the signing.

Perhaps its now two wrongs don't make a right, because if the leafs top 6 forwards had a backbone of their own the Clarkson signing priority would have been lessened in need and may not even have happened.

It all comes back to trying to build a team around a soft, small 100ft very expense, low priority position winger as its star player, with a laundry list of shortcomings.

Which in my opinion is the root of Leafs problems because you need to build a strong core for your foundation.

 

[ACC1224]

I wish this board had a rec button.

Record?

 

[DaveT83*]

So gut the team when you are 10-4? Or fire the coach? Or GM?

Perhaps resigning Bozak, Kessel and Dion were a bit premature?

Hell even extending Nonis for 5 more years.


These were all glaring mistakes at the time - and will continue to be for many many years down the road.

 

[david999]

I have to agree with a lot of what has been stated. The Leafs are way too soft this year. I like Raymond, but he is soft. He should be more on a skating 3rd or 4th line. I would have kept Kulemin with lupul and Kadri, as well as sitting Orr and Maclaren for two younger , better skating ruffians from the Marlies. There has been zero enthusiasm shown for fisticuffs by Orr and Maclaren to justify playing them right now. Firing Carlyle would be taking the players off the hook for the way they have been playing. Carlyle saw how bad they were playing from the beginning of the season, even warning the media and fans that he was not happy even though they won games (thanks to good goal- tending). Tonight against Washington he may as well play the top two lines 20 + minutes each hoping somebody is going to break out.

 

[yubbers]

 

[yubbers]

my bad. Just saw it posted in another thread

 

[Durkin67]

Kessel has regressed to his 2010 self this year. Completely useless in most facets of the game where he previously showed improvement, less hustle and rushing than when he got here, complete deterioration of his playmaking game, still soft as a tissue, and the most egregious thing of all, his long scoring slumps are back, coinciding with the Leafs struggling mightily and headed towards another collapse in the second half. Sure he'll probably pot a couple against a bottom feeder once in a while, but you can't go to war with a guy like this and expect to win.

I'm extremely disappointed in the lack of growth and regression from last season for Phil Kessel. Huge disappointment.

Im going to disagree. He really turned it on with JvR before Bozie went down. If there is any criticism I have, it's his reliance on Bozak to succeed. The chemistry just wsnt there with Kadri, and we all have our own theories as to why that is the case.

Ive seen Kessel use his speed and active stick this year on the back check to break up scoring chances, and he has made excellent use of his linemates for the most part. The whole group is firmly entrenched in a mindset of mediocrity right now, and Kessel is no different.

 

[JackJ]

I really dont see the Leafs top six with the edge. They are equally soft. Edmonton however has the edge in age/skill and ceiling. Leafs top 6 is awful and should be booted.

I was being extremely generous.

 

[JackJ]

I'm still waiting to hear why Phaneuf shouldn't be paired with Gardiner if he's such a defensive beast this season.

Great question.

 

[Faltorvo]

Perhaps resigning Bozak, Kessel and Dion were a bit premature?

Hell even extending Nonis for 5 more years.


These were all glaring mistakes at the time - and will continue to be for many many years down the road.

I have no issue with them re-signing DN per say.

He can be fired without any cap implications.

I would rather have a GM with a sense of security then one making bad long term trades to fix the short term and save their job.

 

[thewave]

I really dont see the Leafs top six with the edge. They are equally soft. Edmonton however has the edge in age/skill and ceiling. Leafs top 6 is awful and should be booted.

If Bozak and Kessel move together this team should find a suitable team and trade them both. At this moment both actually have value looking at Bozaks numbers and his HBO Shootout win. I am sure it can be don and may be our best chance to harden this team up.

 

[notdoneyet]

we absolutely cannot play RC system with the top 6 we have.

They are not built for dump and chase nor are they the least
bit physical.

JVR - Great in front of the net but for a man his size is very soft.
how many times have we seen him with a partial breakaway only
to shoot from a bad angle because he doesnt have the balls to
cut to the net.

kessel - one way dynamic scorer. Has the abilty to score anytime
on the ice BUT when he doesnt have the puck he is absolutely useles.
No jam at all would never take a hit to make a play. wont go into the corners first to get puck. just sticks his stick in the scrum from the outside.
No physical contact at all.Sometimes look like he doesnt care.

bozak - too soft to be a dump and chase center.works well with Phil but is terrible defensively in his own end.

lupul- has the size and skill to be able to play dump and chase but
cannot due to being too fragile. everytime he tries to play physical he is hurt.

Kadri- too small for dump and chase. not good defensively but can make things happen with his skill. Can play on the edge sometimes but goes over it too.
Has to play close to that edge to be effective just has to learn where that edge is.

raymond- a bargain for what he brings but shies away from any physical contact
and is never willing to pay the price. Perimeter player with good wheels that
can score 20 to 25 goals a year.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

You missed the most important constant from your list and its a big one and that is the rebuild plan itself.

Draft schmaft has been constant throughout the past decade with MLSE constantly believing they can short-cut their way by buying success through UFA and Trade using their money, and ignoring the most critical building historically tried and tested method of building a team patiently through strong drafting and developing it internally.

Changing Coaches, GMs, Ownership and players never addresses the real problem of a faulty blueprint that is being followed. Basically the Leafs need a organizational methodology change in operating practices on how they go about conducting business.

Neither the fans nor the location in which they're operating is the blame for the errors of their own ways.

True. MLSE/Leafs culture is Trade/UFA/Fire and then cleanse & repeat cycle. Even their fans have been caught in this trap. There is one obvious strategy that is missing here = DRAFT.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

If Bozak and Kessel move together this team should find a suitable team and trade them both. At this moment both actually have value looking at Bozaks numbers and his HBO Shootout win. I am sure it can be don and may be our best chance to harden this team up.

Id be inclined to keep both Kessel and JVR. Id make the others available. I think they have pretty good value. Lupul will get a good return at the deadline specifically. Bozak should be packaged with perhaps Gardiner or Franson. The team is built with zero toughness. The only tough guys cant play and the guys who can play don't have any edge to them whatsoever. Its not about dropping the gloves. Its not about hitting everything that moves. Its more about not being afraid to win puck battles or take a hit to make a play. Its about being defensively responsible and being aggressive on the forecheck. The Leafs top 6 has none of that. Just a bunch of offensively skilled players that would absolutely dominate a no contact league. Thats really not gonna cut it.

 

[Mess]

Kind of depressing that we are in year 6 of the Burke/Nonis accelerated rebuild and we are producing among the worst results.

But then I'm not really surprised because you get what you pay for.

Slapping a bunch of other teams expendables and unwantables together haphazardly and calling it a team and expecting positive results is a foolish build plan.. Haste makes waste.