Speculation: Thoughts on Shero?

[Tender Rip]

Orpik was already signed well before this past summer. Where's the evidence that RS was gonna move him? As I said, we couldn't have afforded them.

This is simply a "don't want to relate to your argument' comment.
It is obvious that what Ragamuffin means to say is that Shero could have PRIORITIZED finding a solution for Sid's wing. No where is it suggested that Shero has been trying to move Orpik - rather loads here believes he should have, at least after signing Scuderi and considering our pipeline.

If he had WANTED to find a solution for Sid, he could have traded Orpik and/or not extended Dupuis, and thus he'd have had ample cap room. Moreover he would have gotten a better return on Orpik with one full year on the contract than he can get now or at the deadline when he is a rental.

However, in reality... unfortunately it seems plain enough that Dupuis was seen as that guy.

 

[Michael8771*]

This is simply a "don't want to relate to your argument' comment.
It is obvious that what Ragamuffin means to say is that Shero could have PRIORITIZED finding a solution for Sid's wing. No where is it suggested that Shero has been trying to move Orpik - rather loads here believes he should have, at least after signing Scuderi and considering our pipeline.

If he had WANTED to find a solution for Sid, he could have traded Orpik and/or not extended Dupuis, and thus he'd have had ample cap room. Moreover he would have gotten a better return on Orpik with one full year on the contract than he can get now or at the deadline when he is a rental.

However, in reality... unfortunately it seems plain enough that Dupuis was seen as that guy.

That argument could be made for Letang or Martin or anyone really. Just because posters here believe they SHOULD have moved Orpik doesn't mean Shero does (obviously). Orpik has a limited NTC anyhow. So even if RS wanted to trade him (which to this point he hasn't) doesn't guarantee Orpik signs off on it. Basically it's a lot of wishful thinking. We could go back and say Shero SHOULD have drafted Toews instead of Staal. We can second guess everything. And some here often do. We don't have to agree with how RS utilizes his assets or how he prioritzes players. But to talk about a guy who's already been under contract for a while and throwing that in with Dupuis who was a UFA, well that's just pulling one out of thin air. Basically ''I HATE THESE TWO PLAYERS their combined salaries equal the promise land in the right trade''. Why not just throw in Adams and Glass, heck you'd have another two million to work with.

 

[Michael8771*]

I could trade Letang this year (before his NTC KICKS IN) For a third liner and a number one pick, save a lot on the cap hit for next year and bring in a winger for Sid.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Orpik was already signed well before this past summer. Where's the evidence that RS was gonna move him? As I said, we couldn't have afforded them.

then don't sign Scuds. We could have afforded almost anyone we wanted.

 

[Michael8771*]

then don't sign Scuds. We could have afforded almost anyone we wanted.

Don't do this, don't do that. Get rid of Adams, trade Orpik, Waive Glass. So basically get rid of everyone we hate, keep the people we love, RS for president.

And with Scuds and Dupuis you're right, we could have afforded certain players this sumer. Of course there's no Guarantee Iginla would have wanted to re up here. My guess is he wouldn't. And Hortons contract is awful long for a guy who's sustained those injuries. But at least Both Scuds and Dupuis were brought in or retained this past off season. So that argument IMO has more merit. Even so, woulda coulda shoulda.

 

[Michael8771*]

Anyone who Follows the Pens knows that Shero stock piles defensemen. So for him to sign Scuderi, no one should really be surprised. Sometimes a GM will make some moves you like, sometimes not and sometimes it rains. Posters want to cherry pick which moves they like or don't like, but when it's all said and done no one will be completely happy with the decisions. Even if it results in a cup.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Don't do this, don't do that. Get rid of Adams, trade Orpik, Waive Glass. So basically get rid of everyone we hate, keep the people we love, RS for president.

I'm just saying, going in to the off-season we could have afford pretty much anybody. The cap was not an issue at all. We had 7+M in space to fill Dupuis' and Scuderi's spots and we had Despres and Bortuzzo both ready to play full time.

Anyone who Follows the Pens knows that Shero stock piles defensemen. So for him to sign Scuderi, no one should really be surprised. Sometimes a GM will make some moves you like, sometimes not and sometimes it rains. Posters want to cherry pick which moves they like or don't like, but when it's all said and done no one will be completely happy with the decisions. Even if it results in a cup.

When he has focused so much on drafting and developing these young defensemen, and then they say Despres is ready to play a top 4 role on this team, I don't think its unreasonable to think it was a bad move to bury him at number 9 on the healthy depth chart. Especially when we have such a lack of quality depth at forward. If we don't use these young d-men on their cheap contracts then Shero has absolutely made a mistake with the way he's built our prospect pool.

 

[Captain Hook]

The list of UFA wingers last summer didn't excite me. I don't have a problem passing on them.

I think Scuds was signed for the top 4 short-term and bottom pair long-term. He'll be Letang's safety valve for a couple years and then a mentor to someone like a Pouliot on the bottom pair for the last year or two of his deal. They also anticipate the cap will go up which will ease his cap hit in that role.

Dupuis got the Scuderi contract up front. I think he was signed for the top 6 short-term and bottom 6 long-term and they are hoping for the cap to go up by the time he's in the bottom 6.

It was also hard to know how this was going to play out. Was Despres really top 4 or was he going to show some of the inconsistency we saw from him late last season. He would have been more of a #5 if he had the consistency issue. There was no way to know Maatta was going to be this good this soon. No one can claim they knew that. Probably more than half this board would have traded that kid over Joe Morrow last season. It wasn't so obvious that he might be able to fill a top 4 spot this season or even a top 6 spot.

The same can be said for Niskanen. He failed miserably when given a bigger top 4 role as recent as last season.

I get the Scuderi signing.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The list of UFA wingers last summer didn't excite me. I don't have a problem passing on them.

I think Scuds was signed for the top 4 short-term and bottom pair long-term. He'll be Letang's safety valve for a couple years and then a mentor to someone like a Pouliot on the bottom pair for the last year or two of his deal. They also anticipate the cap will go up which will ease his cap hit in that role.

Dupuis got the Scuderi contract up front. I think he was signed for the top 6 short-term and bottom 6 long-term and they are hoping for the cap to go up by the time he's in the bottom 6.

It was also hard to know how this was going to play out. Was Despres really top 4 or was he going to show some of the inconsistency we saw from him late last season. He would have been more of a #5 if he had the consistency issue. There was no way to know Maatta was going to be this good this soon. No one can claim they knew that. Probably more than half this board would have traded that kid over Joe Morrow last season. It wasn't so obvious that he might be able to fill a top 4 spot this season or even a top 6 spot.

The same can be said for Niskanen. He failed miserably when given a bigger top 4 role as recent as last season.

I get the Scuderi signing.

I get it too. But it should have been followed with a trade. Orpik and Niskanen are every bit as inconsistent as Despres was last year.

And either way, liking the Scuderi signing or not doesn't change the fact that the salary cap is not a valid excuse for why we didn't get a better forward. I'm not saying there aren't valid reasons for why we did what we did. But salary cap is not one of them.

 

[Michael8771*]

I'm just saying, going in to the off-season we could have afford pretty much anybody. The cap was not an issue at all. We had 7+M in space to fill Dupuis' and Scuderi's spots and we had Despres and Bortuzzo both ready to play full time.



When he has focused so much on drafting and developing these young defensemen, and then they say Despres is ready to play a top 4 role on this team, I don't think its unreasonable to think it was a bad move to bury him at number 9 on the healthy depth chart. Especially when we have such a lack of quality depth at forward. If we don't use these young d-men on their cheap contracts then Shero has absolutely made a mistake with the way he's built our prospect pool.

And with the cap hit regarding Dupuis and Scud's you're 100% right. Last summer they could have allocated the money differently. But of course they didn't. I think the Scuds signing as well as the Dupuis signing demonstrates the the GM and coaching staff put quite a lot of stock in players who have VAST experience and who they are VERY familiar with. They likely viewed those signings as ''safe'' investments with players who have long and proven track records. To some degree it does make sense.

 

[Michael8771*]

I get it too. But it should have been followed with a trade. Orpik and Niskanen are every bit as inconsistent as Despres was last year.

And either way, liking the Scuderi signing or not doesn't change the fact that the salary cap is not a valid excuse for why we didn't get a better forward. I'm not saying there aren't valid reasons for why we did what we did. But salary cap is not one of them.

I think Niskanen has been arguably our most consistent defender. Not sure why you think THIS season he's been anything but solid.

 

[Tender Rip]

And with the cap hit regarding Dupuis and Scud's you're 100% right. Last summer they could have allocated the money differently. But of course they didn't. I think the Scuds signing as well as the Dupuis signing demonstrates the the GM and coaching staff put quite a lot of stock in players who have VAST experience and who they are VERY familiar with. They likely viewed those signings as ''safe'' investments with players who have long and proven track records. To some degree it does make sense.

For real?!?!?!

That's like.... the least controversial interpretation ever!

You do realize that people arguing that it would be preferable if Shero did X, Y or Z different to what he has done, are not automatically proved wrong by the fact that Shero... hasn't done it? Yes?

Hypotheticals are tricky that way.... any bit of nonsense can be argued with a "you can't prove me wrong" sticker attached.


But if you are suggesting that a limited NTC meant Orpik could not have been traded with one year left on his contract if Shero had opted to focus on Sid's RW and decided to trade away from D to make that happen.... then obviously we have to disagree.
...and whatever anyone else thinks about Ragamuffins trade targets or whatever, the argument that the salary cap was the obstacle to adding a solution for the top6 is obviously wrong.

Lack of availability of suitable players - at least to Shero - is the only argument that makes sense.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think Niskanen has been arguably our most consistent defender. Not sure why you think THIS season he's been anything but solid.

I'd argue Despres is right with him there.

 

[Ogrezilla]

And with the cap hit regarding Dupuis and Scud's you're 100% right. Last summer they could have allocated the money differently. But of course they didn't. I think the Scuds signing as well as the Dupuis signing demonstrates the the GM and coaching staff put quite a lot of stock in players who have VAST experience and who they are VERY familiar with. They likely viewed those signings as ''safe'' investments with players who have long and proven track records. To some degree it does make sense.

I've said it before, but my biggest problem with the Dupuis signing and the Adams signing is the figurative stamp of approval he gave Dan Bylsma and his misuse of these players by extending all three of them at the same time.

 

[Michael8771*]

For real?!?!?!


That's like.... the least controversial interpretation ever!

You do realize that people arguing that it would be preferable if Shero did X, Y or Z different to what he has done, are not automatically proved wrong by the fact that Shero... hasn't done it? Yes?

Hypotheticals are tricky that way.... any bit of nonsense can be argued with a "you can't prove me wrong" sticker attached.


But if you are suggesting that a limited NTC meant Orpik could not have been traded with one year left on his contract if Shero had opted to focus on Sid's RW and decided to trade away from D to make that happen.... then obviously we have to disagree.
...and whatever anyone else thinks about Ragamuffins trade targets or whatever, the argument that the salary cap was the obstacle to adding a solution for the top6 is obviously wrong.

Lack of availability of suitable players - at least to Shero - is the only argument that makes sense.

Regardless of the LIMITED NTC, there were no indications that the team was unhappy with Orpik nor that they wanted to trade him, which is why I didn't see it as a viable option in the first place. There was no assurance of a particular player wanting to come here in the off season. Iggy in particular. Yeah, I state a lot of obvious things. An some posters grasp it and some don't. Also, RS stated a while ago (in the summer I believe) that with the cap goin down he was somewhat limited. So yeah, I do think the cap came into play to some extent.

We can come up with so many different scenarios as to what he should or shouldn't do. It's your opinion or my opinion and in the scheme of things it's meaningless. That also is a captain obvious statement. I just love how posters believe we know better than RS. And if they do, they should apply for his job. But we can just second guess him here, yes? It's probably better that way.

Of course we'll have differing opinions in regards to what our GM does or doesn't do, but to the degree he's criticized, it's as if we're back in 2004 and couldn't win if our lives depended on it.

 

[Tender Rip]

Regardless of the LIMITED NTC, there were no indications that the team was unhappy with Orpik nor that they wanted to trade him, which is why I didn't see it as a viable option in the first place.

We are fans, discussing opinions on what would make us better.
There are no indications that Shero or Bylsma are interested in cutting ties with Gladams, but that doesn't mean there are not lots of valid reasons that they should.... or for Bylsma to simply not play them.

There was no assurance of a particular player wanting to come here in the off season. Iggy in particular.

Iggy in particular?! Of course not. We could not have made it clearer that he wasn't going to be used in any way that made him relevant for us. That is all on the Pens - Iggy chose us. Not saying Iggy should have been prioritized.... well he should, but certainly not if we weren't going to use him how he is good.

Of course we'll have differing opinions in regards to what our GM does or doesn't do, but to the degree he's criticized, it's as if we're back in 2004 and couldn't win if our lives depended on it.

.... and now were are halfway through a 10-12 year period of obvious cup winning potential. We cannot win every year, sure, but if we don't learn from mistakes we aren't going to accomplish anything like we should with the AMAZING primary assets we've been gifted. It is ALL about the playoffs.

 

[JTG]

The list of UFA wingers last summer didn't excite me. I don't have a problem passing on them.

I think Scuds was signed for the top 4 short-term and bottom pair long-term. He'll be Letang's safety valve for a couple years and then a mentor to someone like a Pouliot on the bottom pair for the last year or two of his deal. They also anticipate the cap will go up which will ease his cap hit in that role.

Dupuis got the Scuderi contract up front. I think he was signed for the top 6 short-term and bottom 6 long-term and they are hoping for the cap to go up by the time he's in the bottom 6.

It was also hard to know how this was going to play out. Was Despres really top 4 or was he going to show some of the inconsistency we saw from him late last season. He would have been more of a #5 if he had the consistency issue. There was no way to know Maatta was going to be this good this soon. No one can claim they knew that. Probably more than half this board would have traded that kid over Joe Morrow last season. It wasn't so obvious that he might be able to fill a top 4 spot this season or even a top 6 spot.

The same can be said for Niskanen. He failed miserably when given a bigger top 4 role as recent as last season.

I get the Scuderi signing.

You won't get quoted. QFT. Big time

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Why is everyone conveniently forgetting that if Vokoun doesnt get hurt Niskanen likely would have been traded before the season even started.

Plus there is zero reason to trade Orpik before the seaon started.

There was no reason to believe Maata would be ready, Bortuzzo is a bottom pairing guy, and Despres wasnt where he is now developmentally

 

[Fire Shero*]

Many of those free agents are better than any junk we will acquire at the deadline plus it wouldn't have cost a prospect or draft pick to sign them.

Why sign a free agent when you can trade 2 second round picks for a 7th dmen like Murray or a top 5 dman prospect for Brenden Morrow!

 

[ColePens]

The conversation really has been beaten to death. We are at the limit anyway. If someone wnats to get this back up, i'm okay with it. But do we really have to?