Thoughts on Hartman getting jumped after leveling Silfverberg?

[Sol]

Gorgeous hit. Don't like that not one but TWO Ducks dropped the gloves and a third came in with another hit. Wish guys could take the clean hit and move on but if you have to fight--and you will if you hit a Duck, that's fine--it would be nice to not have to pick amongst several opponents, that's kind of bush league and should result in more penalties.

Surprised one of those players was the cleanest and "most respected" player in the NHL , Cogliano.

 

[Dey so soff*]

your reticence to settle may be noted, but you not wanting to settle will not protect you. And the orpik one is a fine example, lay what can be at best be described as a questionable hit on louie and then decline to dance and think that ends it, you come to the realization that bad things might happen. no one wants that.

no one wants more guys getting suckered which is why, even stand up guys, if they do something that could be considered to be taking liberties, if asked they should go. Two that come to mind are simmonds after he nighty nighted mcdonaugh and flash fleischman who ran gorges in the numbers and then ( despite the certainty of the outcome) dropped the gloves with a very agitated Ryan white.

if you allow people to not settle because they dont want to, you are empowering the rats. guess what, no one wants that either.

So just to be clear, you support Thornton suckering Orpik on the ground and out the blame on Orpik for not “manning up” and thus he “deserved” what he got??

This is the mentality that I am talking about. Every hit on a top 6 forward is going to be considered “questionable” by his team, but hitting is legal and always has been. Someone who makes a big hit should never automatically be required to drop the gloves and risk injury to his hands or his face. If he agrees to go, fine, have at it. But a player should NEVER be chased around the ice and FORCED into “answering” for a hit.

 

[Strait2thecup]

Pathetic display by the ducks players here

 

[4thline]

manson threw thinking that his opponent would answer the bell. when he didnt, he stopped throwing.

How is that bad ?

Because the shift from Challenge --> Engage --> Throw to Throw is by definition an instigator. It's not how things were done, nor how they should be done.

 

[sandysan]

So just to be clear, you support Thornton suckering Orpik on the ground and out the blame on Orpik for not “manning up” and thus he “deserved” what he got??

This is the mentality that I am talking about. Every hit on a top 6 forward is going to be considered “questionable” by his team, but hitting is legal and always has been. Someone who makes a big hit should never automatically be required to drop the gloves and risk injury to his hands or his face. If he agrees to go, fine, have at it. But a player should NEVER be chased around the ice and FORCED into “answering” for a hit.

I do. He was asked to settle and decided he didnt have to. Then he got to count lightbulbs. Guys who run goalies, dont get a right to refuse. If you know that someone is asking and you just say no and think that squashes the beef, you quickly learn the error of your judgement. lots of times all you have to do is drop the gloves, grab a hold and do a couple of circles.

That isnt to say that thorton shouldnt have been punished, but I much prefer what he did than say seek redress at the end of a stick or a knee on another player for something that is clearly orpik's responsibility.

 

[sandysan]

Because the shift from Challenge --> Engage --> Throw to Throw is by definition an instigator. It's not how things were done, nor how they should be done.

instigator for what ? a roughing minor ?

 

[4thline]

This wasn't an unusual response. It's pretty standard these days.

That's my problem. Not Manson for doing it, but that it's not unusual. hockey's getting soft. And the funniest part is that the most vocal proponent (in this thread) for fighting keeping hockey from getting soft doesn't see that these reactions are both an indication and a cause of what he fears.

 

[4thline]

instigator for what ? a roughing minor ?

Keep up. If Hartman fights back Manson should get an instigator.

 

[SpezDispenser]

I don't understand how he got 2 minutes for roughing. The Ducks should have been killing penalties for 10 minutes.

 

[Dey so soff*]

I do. He was asked to settle and decided he didnt have to. Then he got to count lightbulbs. Guys who run goalies, dont get a right to refuse. If you know that someone is asking and you just say no and think that squashes the beef, you quickly learn the error of your judgement. lots of times all you have to do is drop the gloves, grab a hold and do a couple of circles.

That isnt to say that thorton shouldnt have been punished, but I much prefer what he did than say seek redress at the end of a stick or a knee on another player for something that is clearly orpik's responsibility.

And right here is the big issue.

Someone lays a big legal or “questionable” hit on a player and he is immediately expected to drop the gloves in response and if he doesn’t, people like you think that whatever happens after that is fair game and “their” fault. I suppose you support what Bertuzzi did to Moore?

I do find it quite funny that in a league that has cracked down on headshots for “player safety” still allows players to chase others around the ice and punch them repeatedly in the head and face.

I remember clearly a game in which Cam Ward slugged Hornqvist right in the face with his BLOCKER hand while Horny was down in his back. Nothing came of it. No penalty, no fine, no suspension, nothing...

Players in the NFL routinely get smashed by big hits and they get up, dust themselves off and hear back to the huddle. There may be some chest bumping and trash talking involved but if a lunch is thrown there is an immediate ejection. Same in every other sport.

Now I’m not saying that fighting needs to eliminated, not at all. If two guys are willing to engage each other then let them dance. My issue is with the piling on of someone who MAY or MAY NOT have made a dirty or questionable hit, and then he has 3 or 4 guys on top of him and wailing away. It’s ridiculous and uncalled for.

I know many want the NHL to back to the “good old days” of line brawls and such but it’s not good for the game. People want to see speed, skill, puckhandling, great goaltending, and yes, big hits. What they don’t want to see is bar fights on the ice after every single big hit.

 

[Dey so soff*]

I don't understand how he got 2 minutes for roughing. The Ducks should have been killing penalties for 10 minutes.

2 minutes for roughing Manson’s fists...

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

I don't have a problem with players standing up for teammates, even after hits that are generally viewed as clean. But Manson reacted as if Hartman took a two-hander to Silverberg's head. Way over the top response to a good, somewhat innocuous hit.

 

[Damisoph]

Great hit...Chicago should have had a power play with that ridiculous response from Manson and Kesler.

 

[ohcomeonref]

And right here is the big issue.

Someone lays a big legal or “questionable” hit on a player and he is immediately expected to drop the gloves in response and if he doesn’t, people like you think that whatever happens after that is fair game and “their” fault. I suppose you support what Bertuzzi did to Moore?

I do find it quite funny that in a league that has cracked down on headshots for “player safety” still allows players to chase others around the ice and punch them repeatedly in the head and face.

I remember clearly a game in which Cam Ward slugged Hornqvist right in the face with his BLOCKER hand while Horny was down in his back. Nothing came of it. No penalty, no fine, no suspension, nothing...

Players in the NFL routinely get smashed by big hits and they get up, dust themselves off and hear back to the huddle. There may be some chest bumping and trash talking involved but if a lunch is thrown there is an immediate ejection. Same in every other sport.

Now I’m not saying that fighting needs to eliminated, not at all. If two guys are willing to engage each other then let them dance. My issue is with the piling on of someone who MAY or MAY NOT have made a dirty or questionable hit, and then he has 3 or 4 guys on top of him and wailing away. It’s ridiculous and uncalled for.

I know many want the NHL to back to the “good old days” of line brawls and such but it’s not good for the game. People want to see speed, skill, puckhandling, great goaltending, and yes, big hits. What they don’t want to see is bar fights on the ice after every single big hit.

Stopped reading here. Incidents aren't comparable. Not even in the same realm. Swing and a miss.

 

[sandysan]

Keep up. If Hartman fights back Manson should get an instigator.

yes he should, but he didnt fight back so the likelyhood of manson getting an instigator without getting a fighting major IRRESPECTIVE of what it says on paper, is still zero.

Did he want to fight ? sure. Did he signal that he wanted to fight ? yep. Harman having velcroed hands means that no one faught and there is no instigator for roughing.

 

[sandysan]

I don't have a problem with players standing up for teammates, even after hits that are generally viewed as clean. But Manson reacted as if Hartman took a two-hander to Silverberg's head. Way over the top response to a good, somewhat innocuous hit.

Way over the top by throwing three glancing punches then grabbing a handfull of jersey and ragdolling him a little ? Hartman got off light, not too heavy.

 

[4thline]

yes he should, but he didnt fight back so the likelyhood of manson getting an instigator without getting a fighting major IRRESPECTIVE of what it says on paper, is still zero.

Did he want to fight ? sure. Did he signal that he wanted to fight ? yep. Harman having velcroed hands means that no one faught and there is no instigator for roughing.

Point
Your Head.

I'm not saying that he should have gotten an instigator with the way things played out. 2+2 for roughing and delay of game would be about right.

I'm saying that had Hartman fought, he should have gotten an instigator.

You can challenge someone to a fight and fight them without ending up shorthanded. There is a proper way to do things. Going postal on a 50/50 "liberty"(aka clean big hit) isn't it. Save that for the real dirt.

But I know, in the perfect hockey world the rules are made by the toughest angriest person, not by the rule book.

 

[hockeyes]

if hartman drops his gloves and goes, my guess that is precisely what happens. but he didnt. And manson didnt press the issue sufficiently to get the singular fighter call. Was the oucome the only fair way it could have shaked out ? probably not.

players who weight the pro and cons for standing up for a teamate also have a special descriptor all for them. Just like the guys who are willing to let liberties be taken against their teamates in order to " hurt em on the scoreboard". If you think that players have the right to take offense, what this boils down to is whether a reasonable player, withouth the benefit of replay, could have interpreted the hit on his teamate as a liberty taken. I think the answer to this is a resounding yes.

Manson has a front row seat of the hit, I find it hard to believe he could have interpreted the hit as anything other than a clean hit. Regardless, I'm not sure how dropping your gloves and taking three swings at a guy isn't a fighting penalty but again, that's on the league and however they want to call the rules that day.

 

[sandysan]

And right here is the big issue.

Someone lays a big legal or “questionable” hit on a player and he is immediately expected to drop the gloves in response and if he doesn’t, people like you think that whatever happens after that is fair game and “their” fault. I suppose you support what Bertuzzi did to Moore?

I do find it quite funny that in a league that has cracked down on headshots for “player safety” still allows players to chase others around the ice and punch them repeatedly in the head and face.

I remember clearly a game in which Cam Ward slugged Hornqvist right in the face with his BLOCKER hand while Horny was down in his back. Nothing came of it. No penalty, no fine, no suspension, nothing...

Players in the NFL routinely get smashed by big hits and they get up, dust themselves off and hear back to the huddle. There may be some chest bumping and trash talking involved but if a lunch is thrown there is an immediate ejection. Same in every other sport.

Now I’m not saying that fighting needs to eliminated, not at all. If two guys are willing to engage each other then let them dance. My issue is with the piling on of someone who MAY or MAY NOT have made a dirty or questionable hit, and then he has 3 or 4 guys on top of him and wailing away. It’s ridiculous and uncalled for.

I know many want the NHL to back to the “good old days” of line brawls and such but it’s not good for the game. People want to see speed, skill, puckhandling, great goaltending, and yes, big hits. What they don’t want to see is bar fights on the ice after every single big hit.

if players want to be protected by the code don't cross the line. Players who think that they can go right up to the line and never answer soon learn the error of their ways.

And as a member of the goalie union whose dues have long since lapsed, i will never cry a single tear for anything that happens to a forward at the hand of a goalie. never. if this incident happend as you say, good for cam ward.

and players in the nfl routinely thow chop blocks, punch guys in the junk and bend back or bite fingers in the pile. And if a player goes after a quaterback on a late hit ( Cj beathard) they do fight, and they chain snatch and they throw helmets and grab facemasks. yeah THAT is who we should be emulating.

your beef is that a player on the ice interpreted something differently that you did from your barkalounger. ooooh the horrors. No way manson ( or anyone else) does this in response to a normal rub out in the corner. the closer you get to lighting talent up, the more likely someone can view this as taking liberties. If they are convinced that liberties have been taken, even if they are wrong, if they come to settle. you settle. you not settling puts lots of other people at risk.

And you will have to forgive me if I dont agree of even believe that you have a finger on the pulse of " what people want" because of all of the times when there WERE line brawls all of those people who swooned or turned their heads to protect their fragile constitutions and vowed never to return.

 

[Dey so soff*]

Stopped reading here. Incidents aren't comparable. Not even in the same realm. Swing and a miss.

I’m not comparing THIS incident to the Bertuzzi one. I mentioned the Thornton/Orpik incident in which Orpik was dragged down from behind and slugged in the face while on the ice, knocking him out. Another poster agreed with what happened to Orpik because he didn’t “answer the bell” after making a “questionable” hit on Eriksson.

When players are allowed to roam the ice looking for “retribution” and the other player doesn’t want to dance, then they should be that. No sucker punches, no tackles with punches being thrown, no pile on by half the other team.

No, what Manson did is not equatable to Bertuzzi or Thornton. I’m talking about the bigger picture though. Stuff like this happens all the time and it is dangerous in many ways. Jumping an unwilling player and throwing haymakers at them while they are on the ice should result in an immediate ejection and 5 minute major.

 

[deaderhead28]

Should a player "have" to fight and answer for throwing a big open ice hit like that?

Classless Ducks response.Then again look at all three players that jumped Hartman not surprising.

 

[sandysan]

Point
Your Head.

I'm not saying that he should have gotten an instigator with the way things played out. 2+2 for roughing and delay of game would be about right.

I'm saying that had Hartman fought, he should have gotten an instigator.

You can challenge someone to a fight and fight them without ending up shorthanded. There is a proper way to do things. Going postal on a 50/50 "liberty"(aka clean big hit) isn't it. Save that for the real dirt.

But I know, in the perfect hockey world the rules are made by the toughest angriest person, not by the rule book.

or the collective will of a century of the people who are the ones to suffer the consequnces or reap the benefits.

and for the sake of your, and you by the booker ilk's blood pressure, never EVER watch what happens in front of the net ? OOOOH the humanity !

If manson thought that liberties were taken, that you don't means didly. he might have been wrong but he was uniquely positioned to respond.

I’m not comparing THIS incident to the Bertuzzi one. I mentioned the Thornton/Orpik incident in which Orpik was dragged down from behind and slugged in the face while on the ice, knocking him out. Another poster agreed with what happened to Orpik because he didn’t “answer the bell” after making a “questionable” hit on Eriksson.

When players are allowed to roam the ice looking for “retribution” and the other player doesn’t want to dance, then they should be that. No sucker punches, no tackles with punches being thrown, no pile on by half the other team.

No, what Manson did is not equatable to Bertuzzi or Thornton. I’m talking about the bigger picture though. Stuff like this happens all the time and it is dangerous in many ways. Jumping an unwilling player and throwing haymakers at them while they are on the ice should result in an immediate ejection and 5 minute major.

he wasnt " dragged down from behind". He was very clearly challenged to his face and thought that his unwillingness protected him. Live an learn.

I'm just wondering these roaming groups of players looking for retriburion, how many times do they go after a guy for NO reason ? that's right almost never. as you get closer and closer to the line the likelihood increases that someone will respond. you run the goalie, whether you are ghandi or not you either put the dukes up or you can do a great heavy bag impersonation. your choice.

what this boils down to is the inane argument that some fans think that because THEY view the hit as clean that everybody on the ice should do so as well. There's a lot of grey near the line, and the difference between clean and predatory can be fantastically thin. So if you want to light talent up, you HAVE to accept the fact that at some time someone might not view the hit as you do and if they come and ask ( not run up and sucker you) the right thing to do is answer. if you don't, the beef isnt magically squashed. and if you are a fan who says that a player had every right to decline if they think they have not crossed then you are empowering the rats who NEVER think that they did anything untoward.

"throwing haymakers": har de har har. Three glancing shots then a handfull of jersey. big freaking woop.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Way over the top by throwing three glancing punches then grabbing a handfull of jersey and ragdolling him a little ? Hartman got off light, not too heavy.

Manson immediately dropped his gloves, started throwing punches (whether or not they landed is irrelevant), then went around the refs to get back at Hartman. It was a bizarre reaction on the whole.

 

[Steal Your Faceoff]

Some posters are playing up the view of this was just Anaheim defending their teammate and they don't have the benefit of replay so they just instinctively assume it was a cheap shot. You'd think with these descriptions they skated past Silfverberg's lifeless body in a heap or him on all fours struggling to get back to his feet. In reality if you watch the play, Silfverberg bounced right back up and started hustling to get back into the play looking no worse for wear..It was only some of his teammates who just saw exactly what happened and made a beeline to get to Hartman right after the hit which they took such offense to.

 

[sandysan]

Manson immediately dropped his gloves, started throwing punches (whether or not they landed is irrelevant), then went around the refs to get back at Hartman. It was a bizarre reaction on the whole.

and then when he got to hartman who neglected to drop the gloves, he ragdolled him a little and threw a grand total of zero more punches. big whoop. I am sure that manson WANTED to fight him, and guys throw gloved punches all the time in scrums. if this surprises you, watch more games.