this team sucks & Guru's "It's not the defense"

[Pavels Dog]

The problem is with the forwards.

You look at that top line, and they do just fine in terms of gaining the zone and maintaining pressure. More importantly, they do it with every single pairing.

Then you look at the other lines, especially the second, and they can't gain the zone or maintain pressure. Why? because they're generally terrible puck possession players. As a general rule, they're too slow. They can't win battles. When they HAVE the puck, they never give it to their defensemen in order to keep the play alive. They always try to cycle, but they're rarely battling hard enough to make that work.

A good comparison is Tatar. You watch Tatar and he's been doing a very good job on the boards. He keeps the play alive and keeps skating and grinding. The real mystery is why Tatar is so much better at a physical job like that than bigger and stronger guys like Franzen, Weiss (who should at least be stronger), Cleary, Abdelkader, and so on.

and you look back at Nyquist. He did the same thing Tatar is doing now. He came in, battled, and in doing so outbattled a surprising amount of the roster. In the playoffs, if I had to pick a guy outside of Datsyuk and Zetterberg to win a battle, it would have been Nyquist. Now it's Tatar.

So we've got these young, relatively small guys, but they're some of the most effective players in a very physical and very important part of the game. That warrants asking: well, then what are the supposed physical guys on the team doing? Lately, it seems like not very much. They're certainly not driving possession, and most of the time it seems like they're steering play the other direction. I think it's clear that they're not doing their jobs right now.

It's interesting that we point to the defensemen and blame them for making bad passes and disrupting possession. Can't we blame the forwards for losing possession and putting much more pressure on the defense? It seems to me that we should.

It's not an either/or thing, the problem is both a lack of good puck-possession forwards and our defense moving the puck like crap. The 1st line isn't doing "just fine", they're playing way too much in the defensive zone. Countless shifts they get stuck defending because someone, usually Quincey/Kindl/Lashoff/Smith give the puck away. With Kronner/E/Dekeyser out there it looks better.

Almqvist, Oullet, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, maybe Jurco. I have no doubt they'd improve our club right now. Cleary, Andersson, Quincey should go, and one or two of Lashoff/Kindl/Smith.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

It's not an either/or thing, the problem is both a lack of good puck-possession forwards and our defense moving the puck like crap. The 1st line isn't doing "just fine", they're playing way too much in the defensive zone. Countless shifts they get stuck defending because someone, usually Quincey/Kindl/Lashoff/Smith give the puck away. With Kronner/E/Dekeyser out there it looks better.

Almqvist, Oullet, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, maybe Jurco. I have no doubt they'd improve our club right now. Cleary, Andersson, Quincey should go, and one or two of Lashoff/Kindl/Smith.

Yeah, that's completely fair. I guess I was addressing the crowd that seems to be calling for a trade for a better defenseman for Quincey's spot. Personally, I'd just as soon throw Almquist in there. He's about ready for that kind of limited duty.

Especially since any sort of move like that would likely cost us Almquist (by taking his spot for next year) AND probably cost one of our great young guys in Tatar/Nyquist/Jurco/Mantha. I just don't think this team is in a position to sell forwards to buy defensemen. especially not with our prospect depth at D.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Just to add some numbers. After 18 GP, the Wings are 18th in the NHL in G/G, at 2.5 G/G.

They're 15th in GA/G, with 2.61.

That's not a very desirable goal differential, for starters. At 5-on-5, they're 14th with 1.03 GF/GA differential.

20th in rank on the PP with a 16% efficiency. Top ten teams range from 20-28%.

PK is slightly better at 84.8%, which is 10th in rank league-wide.

More telling perhaps, they're 21st in Shots per game, 29.6; and Shots allowed also 21st rank in the NHL, at 30.9.

At best-- they're just trading chances, and losing on those chances slightly more frequently than winning.

You know what we need, statistically? Adjusted stats for all of that with Zetterberg and Datsyuk's contributions taken out. I think that'll really give us an idea of what's going on. SF/60 minus Z+D's stats, GF/60 minus their stats, and so on. It probably wouldn't be hard to do. but I'm lazy.

Those two have been so ******* good that it partially obscures just how bad the other forwards have been.

 

[Brick Top]

You what we need, statistically? Adjusted stats for all of that with Zetterberg and Datsyuk's contributions taken out. I think that'll really give us an idea of what's going on. SF/60 minus Z+D's stats, GF/60 minus their stats, and so on.

Those two have been so ******* good that it partially obscures just how bad the other forwards have been.

Absolutely.

Imagine what happens to this team if either of those guys go down with a serious injury...

Any team would struggle to replace an injured star player, but few teams are as reliant as the Wings are on 2 guys to carry the offensive load. This might be a lottery team if they were to lose D or Z for the season.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Absolutely.

Imagine what happens to this team if either of those guys go down with a serious injury...

Any team would struggle to replace an injured star player, but few teams are as reliant as the Wings are on 2 guys to carry the offensive load. This might be a lottery team if they were to lose D or Z for the season.

the sens last year were without karlssona dn spezza for essentially the entire season and managed to make the playoffs

would we do the same if datsyuk and zetterberg only played 4 and 6 games out of the season?

if not then mgmt has failed

 

[InjuredChoker]

You know what we need, statistically? Adjusted stats for all of that with Zetterberg and Datsyuk's contributions taken out. I think that'll really give us an idea of what's going on. SF/60 minus Z+D's stats, GF/60 minus their stats, and so on. It probably wouldn't be hard to do. but I'm lazy.

Those two have been so ******* good that it partially obscures just how bad the other forwards have been.

datsyuk's and zeta's goal for/against ratio is 75%. wings have 50.8%. 5-on-5 stats.

datsyuk has 54.2% fenwick for/against percent (shots + missed shots). wings have 49.7%

with corsi, those numbers are (blocked shots included) 50% for wings and 55.7% when z and dats are on the ice.

 

[SoupNazi]

I feel like if the cap hadn't gone down, some other teams might have been willing to bite on Tootoo. He's really a decent bottom 6 guy who brings a lot of energy and physicality and also has decent offensive instincts.

But it did go down, so 1.9M is tough to swallow for a guy who might only play 7-10 minutes a night.

I really believe Holland underestimated the amount by which the cap might go down in the new CBA when he handed out those deals last summer. Am I trying to justify them? Nope. I feel like Tootoo was overpaid from the start for what he brings. But it is easier to justify in a world where the cap is $70 million and rising than it is at $64.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i recall them being after prust first; now that's a babcock type of player.

 

[Winger98]

Tough to gauge how effective Tootoo could have been given Babs' basic refusal to play him.

The other guys are bottom 6ers that are all eminently replaceable, just like Cleary. IMO he hasn't played up to $1.75M level- still a blackhole on offense, turns it over, and takes bad penalties like the hook on Brewer b/c he seemingly can't skate a lot of the time.

Even if the Wings didn't have the roster logjam this past off-season, I would have said that signing him would be a mistake.

I didn't say Cleary wasn't replaceable. I said he was better than most of the other guys we've ran out there in the bottom6. With Tootoo (and Miller, Andersson, etc.) we've seen far more bad than good happen with them on the ice. Even with Andersson putting six points up on the year, he's managed to be a -5. for whatever reason, these guys who are at least supposed to be good defensively have been leaking goals.

There's nothing to really love about Cleary, but most nights he's not going to burn you by having him on the ice. And with how desperately this team needs to not shoot themselves in the foot, I'm fine with $1.75m for that. I also think that this summer was an abberation, and the idea of $2m bottom sixers will be back next summer if/when the cap escalates.

 

[cupforwings09]

Based on the lack of a breakout by our defense, and constant turnovers in our own zone, more of the problem is related to the defense at this point.

 

[Brick Top]

I didn't say Cleary wasn't replaceable. I said he was better than most of the other guys we've ran out there in the bottom6. With Tootoo (and Miller, Andersson, etc.) we've seen far more bad than good happen with them on the ice. Even with Andersson putting six points up on the year, he's managed to be a -5. for whatever reason, these guys who are at least supposed to be good defensively have been leaking goals.

There's nothing to really love about Cleary, but most nights he's not going to burn you by having him on the ice. And with how desperately this team needs to not shoot themselves in the foot, I'm fine with $1.75m for that. I also think that this summer was an abberation, and the idea of $2m bottom sixers will be back next summer if/when the cap escalates.

So you're saying that Kenny was being progressive when he bid against himself and handed that deal to DFC, beating the trend of overpaying bottom 6ers by a season?

Not taking a shot at you here, and I agree that we'll see salaries rise with the increased cap. It's just that signing Cleary in the first place was a bad idea, and paying anything more than the veteran's minimum was crazy. We all are seeing how tight the cap situation is this year and overpaying for a guy they didn't need in the first place certainly didn't make things easier.

Anyway, my point was more that Cleary is like the rest of this bottom 6 cast of characters- pretty much a combo crap platter no matter who gets run out there on the ice.

I think his utter ineffectiveness does burn the Wings, though. He strangles the offense of whatever line he's on, and guys walk around him routinely when he's trying to play defense.

 

[sarcastro]

Well, they play bad forwards and rather than hiding them like some teams do with their bad forwards, the Wings are giving them lots of ice time. The regular season is for skating and they're playing a lot of lousy skaters up front. Cleary should be in the press box until April, when the playoffs gum up the games and skating doesn't matter. Andersson should get a lot less ice time because he's not a good skater. Bert is in the midst of one of his hot streaks but he's a bad skater and he'll cool off, and when he does he will look as bad as Cleary.

They lost Weiss and replaced him with Glendening. All because they don't want to give Nyquist his two games and let him become waiver exempt. Fail.

They play bad defensemen and inexperienced defensemen and play them too many minutes, and too many of the highest-stress minutes. Almquist was on the ice for the last minute of OT in his second NHL game. They lost on that shift. Not a coincidence. Not all his fault, but they showed no urgency in that last minute, probably because the coaches threw a rookie offensive defenseman out in the last minute of OT. Not exactly sending the "let's lock this down" message.

They play Quincey. Ever.

It's the defense. It's the offense, outside the top line. It's the coaching. The one thing it's not is the goaltending. Yet.

 

[Kyleftlx]

I didn't say Cleary wasn't replaceable. I said he was better than most of the other guys we've ran out there in the bottom6. With Tootoo (and Miller, Andersson, etc.) we've seen far more bad than good happen with them on the ice. Even with Andersson putting six points up on the year, he's managed to be a -5. for whatever reason, these guys who are at least supposed to be good defensively have been leaking goals.

There's nothing to really love about Cleary, but most nights he's not going to burn you by having him on the ice. And with how desperately this team needs to not shoot themselves in the foot, I'm fine with $1.75m for that. I also think that this summer was an abberation, and the idea of $2m bottom sixers will be back next summer if/when the cap escalates.

This is what I've been trying to say in my last few Dan Cleary related posts. I'm not trying to defend Cleary in terms of being a great addition to the team, being a top 6 player, being a point producer. I've been trying to say that when Cleary is on the ice, goals aren't happening against Detroit for the most part. Miller has a -9 +/-. Eaves has played 3 games and is a -3. Tootoo is a -4. Andersson has found the net and set guys up, but he's still just a -5. Cleary isn't producing offensively, but with the exception of Andersson, none of these other guys are and yet where is the complaints about any of these players? I've said this about 5 million times- how bad does Miller have to be before he's in the press box? Helm even came back and can't seem to stay in the + collumn. It's ridiculous, everyone elses bottom 6 is just destroying Detroit's.

 

[detredWINgs]

Defensively speaking, our defense has sucked and really does suck. Lashoff, Quincey, Smith, and Kindl are simply not talented defensively, and Ouellet/Almqvist are too green.

But here's something to reflect on in terms of offense:

Quincey is producing at the same rate he did after being traded here, and as of now, a better rate than he did last year.

Kindl is producing at a slightly higher rate this year than he ever has in his career.

Kronwall is on pace to tie his career high in points.

DeKeyser is on pace to score 25-30 points and has 5 points in his last 7 games. Although we don't have much to compare this to, most weren't expecting him to produce this much.

Ericsson, although with a smaller sample size, is producing at a slightly higher rate than ever before.

So its not like our defense is necessarily underperforming offensively (outside of Smith, given expectations).

On the other hand, Weiss, Franzen, Cleary, and Samuelsson are all on pace for catastrophic seasons.


Here's another interesting thing:

Ericsson and Quincey both have 3 points. 2/3 of their respective points came with either a goal or assist from Hank, Datsyuk, or both.

Kindl has 6 points. 5 of those came with either a goal or assist from Hank, Datsyuk or both.

But then Dekeyser also has 6 points. And only 2 of his points came with one or both of Hank and Datsyuk getting a goal or assist.

Similarly, Kronwall has 10 points, and only 4 of those came with goals/assists from Hank, Datsyuk, or both.

Lastly, since being paired together, Krowall and Dekeyser have now banded together to produce or assist on 3 goals, whereas two defenseman contributing to a goal has been a rarity for our team this year.

Make of this what you wish, if anything. One thing I would definitely buy into, however, is that DeKeyser and Kronwall has established itself not just as a solid defensive duo, but a solid puck-moving duo as well and shouldn't be broken up when Ericsson ultimately returns.

 

[Kronwalled55]

I actually hope to see DeKeyser take Ericsson's spot. Ericsson is an ideal #3 anyways, and it would give us better depth.

Kronwall - DeKeyser
Ericsson - Smith
Kindl - Quincey

Maybe Smith could play more comfortable with someone defensively responsible like E. Or maybe he's just a total bonehead, who knows. Quincey realistically isn't going anywhere, and neither is Kindl. But if you're playing damage control, that's probably the best combination.

 

[Frk It]

Well, they play bad forwards and rather than hiding them like some teams do with their bad forwards, the Wings are giving them lots of ice time. The regular season is for skating and they're playing a lot of lousy skaters up front. Cleary should be in the press box until April, when the playoffs gum up the games and skating doesn't matter. Andersson should get a lot less ice time because he's not a good skater. Bert is in the midst of one of his hot streaks but he's a bad skater and he'll cool off, and when he does he will look as bad as Cleary.

They lost Weiss and replaced him with Glendening. All because they don't want to give Nyquist his two games and let him become waiver exempt. Fail.

They play bad defensemen and inexperienced defensemen and play them too many minutes, and too many of the highest-stress minutes. Almquist was on the ice for the last minute of OT in his second NHL game. They lost on that shift. Not a coincidence. Not all his fault, but they showed no urgency in that last minute, probably because the coaches threw a rookie offensive defenseman out in the last minute of OT. Not exactly sending the "let's lock this down" message.

They play Quincey. Ever.

It's the defense. It's the offense, outside the top line. It's the coaching. The one thing it's not is the goaltending. Yet.

Good post.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

If we want to make the playoffs this year we need to break up z and d very soon. Assuming that weiss and franzen come back on time with no regression injuries I believe we need to ice the following :

Bert-Dats-Alfie
Z-Weiss-Franzen
Tatar-Andy-Nyquist
Miller-Helm-Abby
Eaves and sammy (**** this guy) as back ups

Waive cleary.

Kronwall-Dekeyser
Ericcsson-Smith
Kindl- Xo (maybe flip flop them if kindl has more off wing exp)
Lashoff

Trade quincey to one of any teams that have cap room or waive him (edm, fla,, buffalo or one of those types) hell give them a 2nd or 3rd rounder to compensate get the ****er off the roster immediatly.

If we our over the cap fine take the cap violation penalty for ****ed up roster management and accept it, own it, and change the team for the better. Ice a product that is actually worth watching and not this current **** storm. Leaders willingly accept when they have made errors and take the costs of doing so in stride to bring back a worthwhile position.

Out of all I have read so far this is DEAD 100 millionth percent correct!!!!!

Those that think we can run the top line and have alfie weiss and franzen be two are not watching this year. how is that worked out so far this year? What is the productions? Oh yes THERE IS NONE. Doesnt work. We need some speedster like brunner was or tatar or nyquist on that line. Or to mix it up correctly with d and z on opposite lines.

I wonder when people create line ups on here if they watch any detroit hockey at times. Slow will not cut it in todays NHL.

Helm has been a huge positive. Weiss will come along he is just where flip was last year coming back from injury so by the end of season I believe he will be playing like the guy I watched the last 9 years. He aint there yet so need a closer that is TATAR OR Z with him period. Datsyuk can play and bring up franzens game.

This doesnt take rocket scientist to figure this stuff out honestly.

I have zero use for slow non finishers so I would let quincey go eaves is gone because miller has better deal and think is better player. I would let andersson go cause think glendening is better player.

Odin cleary is here to stay but hopefully we can put him at least on third and abby on fourth. Helm and abby are actually a good tandem honestly. Problem is abby still is not a closer. Would be nice to bring up ouellet and jurco maybe jensen in time if smith doesnt start playing better. I know he plays better without KFQ.

My lines would be

Datsyuk Franzen Bertuzzi
Zetterberg Alfie Tatar
Weiss cleary Nyquist
helm abdelkader Miller I actually wouldnt mind andersson on this line and glendening.

if we kept d and z together would do
datsyuk zetterberg alfie
weiss tatar franzen
andersson nyquist bertuzzi
helm cleary abdelkader.
miller glendening.

Also on d I could see ouellet over smith with ericsson honestly. I get the 20 years old He is just better than smith right now in what I see.

Sammy needs to go with a prospect or whatever for someone even eating half the salary.

Since we wont move cleary. If the ga of over half the goals continue to be on quincey I honestly cant see him not being cut. I guess owner could just say I wont eat these salaries but honestly cant believe that. Hes got the money I would cut more than all of you would probably like so could get jurco up too lol.

MOD


I dont have a problem with cleary on the team they made a mistake just like tampa did with ryan malone it does happen. Got to get through it and he is still gonna get a roll on this team no matter how bad he plays. I just want him in bottom six. Next quincey is passing Cleary as my most hated wing. I do want Kentucky Fried Quincey off the team entirely at this point. I have given up on him. I think Cleary can be all right in limited minutes and on line 3 or 4 with no power play and penalty kill time.

At least Cleary seems to have a hockey IQ he just cant skate no more. Is sad actually. Quincey is no logical reason for how bad he is unless the injures wear and tear has just taken its toll and he is the one of those 100% dumb hockey players that should have never made it this long.

Again that stuff happens just wish we used stats and actually had eye tests that mike and ken would use and lose the loyalty BS or whatever it is that goes on with keeping scrubs and washed up vets over giving the kids time to see what they can do.

This is second worst team I have watched in detroit in 35 years. I dont believe it has to be this way at all. That is what is frustrating and why have stayed away lately cause dont want to get on soapbox and rehash the same obvious issues over and over.

This is solvable KEN needs to get off his DONKEY BOTTOM and make some changes and Mike needs to ice a better team by using the assets available more correctly.

Watching this team is truly a miserable experience at this point

 

[Frk It]

There's nothing to really love about Cleary, but most nights he's not going to burn you by having him on the ice. And with how desperately this team needs to not shoot themselves in the foot, I'm fine with $1.75m for that..

I guess low standards are better than no standards, right?

 

[Vladdy84]

Having Cleary on the ice is bound to burn you. He may not have a negative rating right now. But a lot of that has to do with who he has been playing with. He constantly turns the puck over and loses battles. Makes errant passes and opposing players go around him like the pylon he is. I'll agree that he hasn't been on the ice when a lot of goals have been scored against. But he contributes in preventing goals for the Wings. And when you consider how much and when he's on the ice, that's terrible. Put him on the 4th line and play him meager minutes and he'll get scored on a bunch.

 

[Heaton]

Having Cleary on the ice is bound to burn you. He may not have a negative rating right now. But a lot of that has to do with who he has been playing with. He constantly turns the puck over and loses battles. Makes errant passes and opposing players go around him like the pylon he is. I'll agree that he hasn't been on the ice when a lot of goals have been scored against. But he contributes in preventing goals for the Wings. And when you consider how much and when he's on the ice, that's terrible. Put him on the 4th line and play him meager minutes and he'll get scored on a bunch.

Yeah, but I think we all (myself included) have put too much emphasis on Cleary and not enough on other players. Yes he's been in the top 6, but so has other players who haven't produced. Weiss, Franzen, Tatar, Abdelkader etc... Our defense isn't generating offense. This whole team is a mess and Cleary isn't near the top of issues right now IMO. Yes he's contributing to issues, but he's not the main issue.

 

[Vladdy84]

Yeah, but I think we all (myself included) have put too much emphasis on Cleary and not enough on other players. Yes he's been in the top 6, but so has other players who haven't produced. Weiss, Franzen, Tatar, Abdelkader etc... Our defense isn't generating offense. This whole team is a mess and Cleary isn't near the top of issues right now IMO. Yes he's contributing to issues, but he's not the main issue.

I agree somewhat. But Cleary has to be considered the #1 reason why Nyquist is not on the team right now. Weiss has been getting used to the system and he's actually looked really good the past couple games he played. Maybe if he was setting up a player like Nyquist or Tatar he'd have more points? Weiss is being asked to be a 2-way player and has to cover for that anchor named Daniel quite a bit. Mule has been good at times and at other times he's been the invisible Mule we've all come to expect to see throughout a season. This isn't something new. Tatar has looked really good for the most part in limited playing time. Yeah, he has turned the puck over a bit. But a lot of that is growing pains and trying to do too much due to his situation on the team. Gator is Gator. Good and bad, it's not like we really expect that much more from him.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

i think the fact people try and defend cleary shows just how low their expectations of holland have become

instead, you should be spitting mad that they're demanding the fans pay for a deliberately and intentionally weak product

 

[Vladdy84]

i think the fact people try and defend cleary shows just how low their expectations of holland have become

instead, you should be spitting mad that they're demanding the fans pay for a deliberately and intentionally weak product

I just really can't understand the defense of Cleary at all. He's done pretty much nothing to help the team at the cost of Nyquist being buried in the AHL. The team has a lot of issues, Cleary is obviously not the number 1 culprit of this situation. I think players like Joker and Quincey have been just as bad. If the Wings could somehow replace those 3 players with players from the AHL it would be an improvement. I'd rather see Nyquist, Glendenning and XO/Almquist playing. Ferraro, Sheahan and possibly Jurco and Jarnkrok would be breaths of fresh air as well. Eaves can go to. Miller, another player I like hasn't done much at all. Unfortunately he's signed for a couple more years. I still like his effort though.

 

[Heaton]

I agree somewhat. But Cleary has to be considered the #1 reason why Nyquist is not on the team right now. Weiss has been getting used to the system and he's actually looked really good the past couple games he played. Maybe if he was setting up a player like Nyquist or Tatar he'd have more points? Weiss is being asked to be a 2-way player and has to cover for that anchor named Daniel quite a bit. Mule has been good at times and at other times he's been the invisible Mule we've all come to expect to see throughout a season. This isn't something new. Tatar has looked really good for the most part in limited playing time. Yeah, he has turned the puck over a bit. But a lot of that is growing pains and trying to do too much due to his situation on the team. Gator is Gator. Good and bad, it's not like we really expect that much more from him.

Yes, he definitely can be considered #1 culprit for the absence of Nyquist, however, there were so many other ways for Nyquist to be up. Holland waiving or trading or buying out Tootoo over the summer. Waiving Eaves, buying out Samuelsson etc...

I agree 100% Cleary sucks and shouldn't be on the team. But I just think he's taking the brunt of the blame for things that are bigger than him. I mean, if Weiss, Tatar, Franzen are producing, Cleary is just a thorn in the side because we'd be winning.

 

[JPE123]

Yeah, but I think we all (myself included) have put too much emphasis on Cleary and not enough on other players. Yes he's been in the top 6, but so has other players who haven't produced. Weiss, Franzen, Tatar, Abdelkader etc... Our defense isn't generating offense. This whole team is a mess and Cleary isn't near the top of issues right now IMO. Yes he's contributing to issues, but he's not the main issue.

I think Cleary get's the brunt of the emphasis simply because he represents Kenny repeating the terrible mistakes of last year with Sammy and Quincey. We were rid of Cleary, had absolutely no reason to go out and sign him, in fact had reasons not to do it but Kenny went ahead and did it anyways. Makes you think he'll offer Sammy another contract when his is up. We have a lot of money tied up in non producers and the Cleary signing was just the latest obvious screwup. He's not the worst player on the team but he brings nothing that 3-4 other guys we already had bring.