Jusek
Registered User
- Dec 2, 2009
- 1,172
- 0
this team sucks & Guru's "It's not the defense"
- Thread starter Heaton
- Start date
I think the forwards did a better job playing the whole length of the ice last year and hid some of the problems with our D. I'm entirely with you in getting some more talent onto the club, especially the young guys, though. Those first three guys you list look ready. I think the other two are going to push a lot harder than some expect them to. For all of the complaints about Sproul's D, the guy's producing like mad and he's been a net positive on the ice.
The guys on the ice right now, though, are far better than they've been playing. Guys need to step up.
a bit of add on here but I just listened to Babcock's interview ]from after the game last night. Mentions the success of the road trip came from balanced scoring and guys like Tatar and Gator chipping in points, and he seemed to couch that within a statement about guys you expect to score. Sounds like he's just saying we're a young team with a bunch of kids without real track records of producing points.
guinness
Not Ingrid for now
The Wings are a perfectly average team, it's how it was last season, it's how it will be this season. Win a few, lose a few.
Just look at the roster, outside of Z and Dats, not much to carry the offense, and on defense...however Quincy is awful.
Just look at the roster, outside of Z and Dats, not much to carry the offense, and on defense...however Quincy is awful.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Forwards
Dan Cleary: pacing for 14 points. $1.75 million for this year.
Mikael Samuelsson: on pace for 12 points and a -12. $3 million this year!
Todd Bertuzzi: was on pace for 25 points before being paired with the Twins. $2.075 million this year.
So roughly $7 million for a total of 50 points of production.
Defensemen
Kyle Quincey: pacing for 14 points and a -41. $3.8 MILLION this year.
Jakub Kindl: was on pace for 13 points and is currently on pace to go -18. $2.4 million for the next 3 years.
So just under another $7 million set on fire for 27 points and a combined -59.
And people wonder why this team struggles to win games. The defense has one offensive defenseman. Quincey was supposed to be one and that is the biggest joke. Kindl was supposed to become one and he can get some points when he's paired with our best players but then his plus minus goes down the toilet because he still can't check NHL talent. -5 over his past three games.
Nearly $14 million of a $64 million salary cap - close to 25% of your salaries - just wasted on guys who in all likelihood would never get picked up off the waiver wire if you waived them.
Awesome depth.
Awesome asset management.
Awesome cap management.
Awesome use of what everyone considers a very good prospect pool.
Dan Cleary: pacing for 14 points. $1.75 million for this year.
Mikael Samuelsson: on pace for 12 points and a -12. $3 million this year!
Todd Bertuzzi: was on pace for 25 points before being paired with the Twins. $2.075 million this year.
So roughly $7 million for a total of 50 points of production.
Defensemen
Kyle Quincey: pacing for 14 points and a -41. $3.8 MILLION this year.
Jakub Kindl: was on pace for 13 points and is currently on pace to go -18. $2.4 million for the next 3 years.
So just under another $7 million set on fire for 27 points and a combined -59.
And people wonder why this team struggles to win games. The defense has one offensive defenseman. Quincey was supposed to be one and that is the biggest joke. Kindl was supposed to become one and he can get some points when he's paired with our best players but then his plus minus goes down the toilet because he still can't check NHL talent. -5 over his past three games.
Nearly $14 million of a $64 million salary cap - close to 25% of your salaries - just wasted on guys who in all likelihood would never get picked up off the waiver wire if you waived them.
Awesome depth.
Awesome asset management.
Awesome cap management.
Awesome use of what everyone considers a very good prospect pool.
Henkka
Registered User
There's nothing wrong in Bertuzzi-signing at the moment. He is doing that Holmström job just like Holmström did with ~same salary.
Cleary... debatable. Does not work at TOP6, but that 1.75M is not really that bad contract for a Bottom6 player.
Sammy is a bad mistake, should have been forced to bought out in summer.
Quincey's salary was determined with arbitrator -threats. Yes, he is overpaid, because of his production at former teams.
Kindl has struggled, but it's too early to judge that contract. The value is very near of league average for a 3rd pairing guy.
Cleary... debatable. Does not work at TOP6, but that 1.75M is not really that bad contract for a Bottom6 player.
Sammy is a bad mistake, should have been forced to bought out in summer.
Quincey's salary was determined with arbitrator -threats. Yes, he is overpaid, because of his production at former teams.
Kindl has struggled, but it's too early to judge that contract. The value is very near of league average for a 3rd pairing guy.
Brick Top
LANA!!!!!
You had me at Cleary.... debatable.You're right that 1.75M isn't awful for a bottom 6 guy. But that would assume that the guy is a good player (which Cleary isn't) and that the team doesn't have a multitude of better options on the roster currently and in GR (which the Wings do).
Seriously, the fact that you're still on the fence about the Cleary signing possibly being good for this team makes me think that you need to trade user names with Eternal Sunshine b/c you are clearly the eternal optimist
JPE123
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2013
- 3,153
- 10
Just not a very good hockey team right now. When we get Big Rig back and if we can get Nyquist up somehow, some way it improves us in 2 areas but overall I see a lot of mediocre play. Dats and Z have been great, Bert a pleasant surprise, and Alfie is fine but overall we just don't look like a team that goes any further than 1 round.
Our D is not ready for prime time and I don't believe Howie is a guy that carry a team. He'll keep us in games but we give up way too many easy shots.
Very mediocre team right now
Our D is not ready for prime time and I don't believe Howie is a guy that carry a team. He'll keep us in games but we give up way too many easy shots.
Very mediocre team right now
You're right that 1.75M isn't awful for a bottom 6 guy. But that would assume that the guy is a good player (which Cleary isn't) and that the team doesn't have a multitude of better options on the roster currently and in GR (which the Wings do).
Seriously, the fact that you're still on the fence about the Cleary signing possibly being good for this team makes me think that you need to trade user names with Eternal Sunshine b/c you are clearly the eternal optimist
Cleary's been better than Miller, Eaves, Tootoo, Glendening, and Andersson. His contract boned us because we already had a ton of guys signed, but he's been better than a host of others on the team, and has played up to his cap hit.
None of this is saying he should have been signed. With the contract situation, he shouldn't have, but the contract itself isn't bad.
the teams depth isnt very good
their bottom 6 players are slow, small, unskilled, talentless bums
you either have young strong fast guys in your bottom 6 who o true grinders who hit and fight everything and everyone, you do not have lazy old guys, its disgusting to watch
their bottom 6 players are slow, small, unskilled, talentless bums
you either have young strong fast guys in your bottom 6 who o true grinders who hit and fight everything and everyone, you do not have lazy old guys, its disgusting to watch
Syckle78
Registered User
In what way has Cleary been better than them? Its not like they had the opportunity of top six ice time to do anything with.
Brick Top
LANA!!!!!
Tough to gauge how effective Tootoo could have been given Babs' basic refusal to play him.
The other guys are bottom 6ers that are all eminently replaceable, just like Cleary. IMO he hasn't played up to $1.75M level- still a blackhole on offense, turns it over, and takes bad penalties like the hook on Brewer b/c he seemingly can't skate a lot of the time.
Even if the Wings didn't have the roster logjam this past off-season, I would have said that signing him would be a mistake.
A Few Stats to Digest
Just to add some numbers. After 18 GP, the Wings are 18th in the NHL in G/G, at 2.5 G/G.
They're 15th in GA/G, with 2.61.
That's not a very desirable goal differential, for starters. At 5-on-5, they're 14th with 1.03 GF/GA differential.
20th in rank on the PP with a 16% efficiency. Top ten teams range from 20-28%.
PK is slightly better at 84.8%, which is 10th in rank league-wide.
More telling perhaps, they're 21st in Shots per game, 29.6; and Shots allowed also 21st rank in the NHL, at 30.9.
At best-- they're just trading chances, and losing on those chances slightly more frequently than winning.
Just to add some numbers. After 18 GP, the Wings are 18th in the NHL in G/G, at 2.5 G/G.
They're 15th in GA/G, with 2.61.
That's not a very desirable goal differential, for starters. At 5-on-5, they're 14th with 1.03 GF/GA differential.
20th in rank on the PP with a 16% efficiency. Top ten teams range from 20-28%.
PK is slightly better at 84.8%, which is 10th in rank league-wide.
More telling perhaps, they're 21st in Shots per game, 29.6; and Shots allowed also 21st rank in the NHL, at 30.9.
At best-- they're just trading chances, and losing on those chances slightly more frequently than winning.
holland needs to be a man
waive cleary
waive eaves
trade quincey for anything
trade sammy for anything
bring up nyquist
bring up jurco
bring up almquist(sp)
if a trade can be made for a legit top 3 young dman at the expense of some prospect depth then ok so be it
otherwise dump some of the trash and bring up some youth, speed, skill and enthiusiasm
bellow average depth players are all replaceable at the drop of a hat so who cares about their feelings or what they have done in the past, its all about now and down the line
its time holland does his job
waive cleary
waive eaves
trade quincey for anything
trade sammy for anything
bring up nyquist
bring up jurco
bring up almquist(sp)
if a trade can be made for a legit top 3 young dman at the expense of some prospect depth then ok so be it
otherwise dump some of the trash and bring up some youth, speed, skill and enthiusiasm
bellow average depth players are all replaceable at the drop of a hat so who cares about their feelings or what they have done in the past, its all about now and down the line
its time holland does his job
I'd go with Ouellet instead of Quincey. The guy as an absolute liability, is dumb as a doornail, takes too many stupid penalties and doesn't bring stability in either zone. Drop Quincey, bring in Ouellet, XO looks like he belongs.
Play Smith in the role he needs to play in. Give him some PP minutes.
Kronwall - DeKeyser
Smith - Ericsson
Ouellet - Kindl
Lashoff
Play Smith in the role he needs to play in. Give him some PP minutes.
Kronwall - DeKeyser
Smith - Ericsson
Ouellet - Kindl
Lashoff
They failed miserably on the PP, got some great looks but couldn't finish. Then Stamkos scores straight away. That was a killer blow. The defense was all over the place and too many times TB got easy shots on Howard.
Obviously people will **** on Howard when the team in front of him isn't helping him out. If they played like they did against SJ defensively and like they did against Edmonton offensively, I don't see how there would be an issue.
This team won't be a Cup contender for a while. They are still transitioning into building on the foundation around Z, D, Kronwall and to some extent Howard. They should make the playoffs, but there are some better teams that are well set in other divisions.
Obviously people will **** on Howard when the team in front of him isn't helping him out. If they played like they did against SJ defensively and like they did against Edmonton offensively, I don't see how there would be an issue.
This team won't be a Cup contender for a while. They are still transitioning into building on the foundation around Z, D, Kronwall and to some extent Howard. They should make the playoffs, but there are some better teams that are well set in other divisions.
theanomaly
you just lost the game
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
The problem is not the defense
The problem is with the forwards.
You look at that top line, and they do just fine in terms of gaining the zone and maintaining pressure. More importantly, they do it with every single pairing.
Then you look at the other lines, especially the second, and they can't gain the zone or maintain pressure. Why? because they're generally terrible puck possession players. As a general rule, they're too slow. They can't win battles. When they HAVE the puck, they never give it to their defensemen in order to keep the play alive. They always try to cycle, but they're rarely battling hard enough to make that work.
A good comparison is Tatar. You watch Tatar and he's been doing a very good job on the boards. He keeps the play alive and keeps skating and grinding. The real mystery is why Tatar is so much better at a physical job like that than bigger and stronger guys like Franzen, Weiss (who should at least be stronger), Cleary, Abdelkader, and so on.
and you look back at Nyquist. He did the same thing Tatar is doing now. He came in, battled, and in doing so outbattled a surprising amount of the roster. In the playoffs, if I had to pick a guy outside of Datsyuk and Zetterberg to win a battle, it would have been Nyquist. Now it's Tatar.
So we've got these young, relatively small guys, but they're some of the most effective players in a very physical and very important part of the game. That warrants asking: well, then what are the supposed physical guys on the team doing? Lately, it seems like not very much. They're certainly not driving possession, and most of the time it seems like they're steering play the other direction. I think it's clear that they're not doing their jobs right now.
It's interesting that we point to the defensemen and blame them for making bad passes and disrupting possession. Can't we blame the forwards for losing possession and putting much more pressure on the defense? It seems to me that we should.
The problem is with the forwards.
You look at that top line, and they do just fine in terms of gaining the zone and maintaining pressure. More importantly, they do it with every single pairing.
Then you look at the other lines, especially the second, and they can't gain the zone or maintain pressure. Why? because they're generally terrible puck possession players. As a general rule, they're too slow. They can't win battles. When they HAVE the puck, they never give it to their defensemen in order to keep the play alive. They always try to cycle, but they're rarely battling hard enough to make that work.
A good comparison is Tatar. You watch Tatar and he's been doing a very good job on the boards. He keeps the play alive and keeps skating and grinding. The real mystery is why Tatar is so much better at a physical job like that than bigger and stronger guys like Franzen, Weiss (who should at least be stronger), Cleary, Abdelkader, and so on.
and you look back at Nyquist. He did the same thing Tatar is doing now. He came in, battled, and in doing so outbattled a surprising amount of the roster. In the playoffs, if I had to pick a guy outside of Datsyuk and Zetterberg to win a battle, it would have been Nyquist. Now it's Tatar.
So we've got these young, relatively small guys, but they're some of the most effective players in a very physical and very important part of the game. That warrants asking: well, then what are the supposed physical guys on the team doing? Lately, it seems like not very much. They're certainly not driving possession, and most of the time it seems like they're steering play the other direction. I think it's clear that they're not doing their jobs right now.
It's interesting that we point to the defensemen and blame them for making bad passes and disrupting possession. Can't we blame the forwards for losing possession and putting much more pressure on the defense? It seems to me that we should.
InjuredChoker
Registered User
there could be a way to look into this a little more closely, that i've been thinking about tracking; zone exits and entry's.
they would give an indication if the f's are the problem with the lack of puck possession; less controlled zone entry's -> less shots on net -> less time spent in off. zone. and ultimately, less goals. an more goals against.
or if the problem is the d. can't breakout from own zone, giveaways, turnovers, more time in own zone, forwards won't get the puck and if they to they have to chip it in as they are too tired to press offense.
personally, i see the problem being on both.
they would give an indication if the f's are the problem with the lack of puck possession; less controlled zone entry's -> less shots on net -> less time spent in off. zone. and ultimately, less goals. an more goals against.
or if the problem is the d. can't breakout from own zone, giveaways, turnovers, more time in own zone, forwards won't get the puck and if they to they have to chip it in as they are too tired to press offense.
personally, i see the problem being on both.
I am absolutely baffled that Nyquist is in Grand Rapids. If the Red Wings want to ice the best team possible, Nyquist should be in the line-up. It's as simple as simple as that
What does it say about the Red Wings roster that they kept Totoo through training camp, then released him (presumably after being unable to trade him), and then nobody claimed him on waivers? Are the Red Wings over-valuing their own players? Are the Red Wings the only team in the league that thinks Totoo has trade value?
RayMoonDoh
Outta Waiver Stuff
The old reacharound.
I feel like if the cap hadn't gone down, some other teams might have been willing to bite on Tootoo. He's really a decent bottom 6 guy who brings a lot of energy and physicality and also has decent offensive instincts.
But it did go down, so 1.9M is tough to swallow for a guy who might only play 7-10 minutes a night.
Henkka
Registered User
They kept him because Helm in LTIR made it possible. Tootoo would have been waived at the season start, if there would not have been that chance to delay that decision longer.
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