This is why a cap neccessary

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vanlady

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kerrly said:
Yes I agree that it is a drawback, but it increase revenues. And I'm fully aware of what Cobb has done for the franchise, but not every team has access to a Cobb of their own. But you have to agree with me, eventhough I haven't witnessed it yet, that Vancouver is in a much more favourable market place than Edmonton.


Having access to a Dave Cobb is simply a matter of hiring one. There are several very astute smart businessmen out there. What it takes is an owner smart enough to take the money out of the hockey guys hands and give it to someone who knows what they are doing. It took John McCaw 2 years to learn this lesson. Beleive it or not Edmonton has a bigger disposable income than Vancouver has, so you are a more favorable market.
 

kerrly

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vanlady said:
Having access to a Dave Cobb is simply a matter of hiring one. There are several very astute smart businessmen out there. What it takes is an owner smart enough to take the money out of the hockey guys hands and give it to someone who knows what they are doing. It took John McCaw 2 years to learn this lesson. Beleive it or not Edmonton has a bigger disposable income than Vancouver has, so you are a more favorable market.

I have no idea what a Dave Cobb costs, but I'm sure he wasn't cheap. And no I don't think hiring one is a bad idea at all. I just think he is a genious, and it would be tough to find someone who can bring that kind of success to every team.

I've heard it all now. You are just not willing to admit when something is wrong, you will dig and dig until you find something that goes slightly in the way of your argument and use it. More disposable income, maybe......but then why are Edmonton's ticket prices dramatically lower. They are at the level of what the market dictates it should be. I don't even feel the need to argue the fact that Vancouver is a much better (or favorable as you like to put it) market for a team than Edmonton, and I think you might be the only person on the board who thinks otherwise.
 

vanlady

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wazee said:
Good Grief. Where did you get the idea that the Minnesota North Star's 1991 playoff run financed the Dallas Stars successes in the late 90s? It didn't even make it possible to keep the team in Minnesota!

It seems to me that you have a rather short view of the NHL. You say you don't want to support Chicago...but until a few years ago, Chicago had one of the longest strings of playoff appearances in the NHL. They made money for years and most likely will again. I would pay money to support Edmonton because they are a true small market team and I think the NHL needs to keep the Canadian teams.

Despite your claim to the contrary, Vancouver is not a small market team. They were in the middle of the pack, payroll-wise in the mid-90s. They were as high as 6th one year when Messier was there. You speak of the years after the Canucks 'blew up' their team as the dark years...but it wasn't lack of money that forced the changes. It was that the Keenan-Messier experiment wasn't working.

After reading lots of your posts today, I get the picture that you think the new CBA will be bad for the Canucks. Am I reading you right on that? If so, why do you assume that to be the case?

The Stars left Minnesota because they had been playing in the same arena for 26 years. They still had the same ownership in Dallas for at least a year. So yes the run in Minnesota financed there future success.

http://www.leg.state.mn.us/lrl/issues/hockey.asp

UM where did you get the Canucks had money? Arthur Griffiths had to sell the team to John McCaw because of money. Jeeez if it hadn't been money the Griffiths family would still own the Canucks. I have been a season ticket holder long enough to know exactly how bad the finances were in the 90's and why. Guess what that reason was, GM Place.

Any system that is put in place simply so that you can create equality for extremely poorly run franchises is something I am not interested in.
 
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vanlady said:
Revenue sharing is fine if it is spread evenly penny for penny across the league, however, spending millions to develop players into elite players and then having to give them to poorly managed franchises is a waste of my money.

Vancouver had very little corporate support 5 years ago, Dave Cobb changed that. It takes work and a very keen business man not a hockey guy to generate the money Dave Cobb did. Find someone like that and maybe Edmonton would be on the same plane with Vancouver. Oh one draw back though our ticket prices skyrocketed thanks to all that corporate support.

It didn't hurt that the Canucks stopped competing with the Grizz for Corporate $$$. Cobb had nothing to do with that. Cobb just signed the deals. The Canucks reaped the benefits of being in a hockey town.
 
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vanlady said:
Any system that is put in place simply so that you can create equality for extremely poorly run franchises is something I am not interested in.

It isn't about poorly run francises. You think the Oilers are poorly run? The Coyotes? Sabres? Penguins?

The NHL Needs 30 healthy francises period. 5-10 just will not work. And certainly not 5 dictating what the rest of te league should pay.
 

vanlady

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kerrly said:
I have no idea what a Dave Cobb costs, but I'm sure he wasn't cheap. And no I don't think hiring one is a bad idea at all. I just think he is a genious, and it would be tough to find someone who can bring that kind of success to every team.

I've heard it all now. You are just not willing to admit when something is wrong, you will dig and dig until you find something that goes slightly in the way of your argument and use it. More disposable income, maybe......but then why are Edmonton's ticket prices dramatically lower. They are at the level of what the market dictates it should be. I don't even feel the need to argue the fact that Vancouver is a much better (or favorable as you like to put it) market for a team than Edmonton, and I think you might be the only person on the board who thinks otherwise.

What I said was disposable income, considering our taxes alone are 12% higher than yours is a real statement. Bring in our real estate values where you can't buy a shack in Vancouver for less than half a million and yes you have a much higher disposable income. By the way your population is just under 1 million, ours is 1.3 million when you add up Surrey, Burnaby, north and West Van, Richmond and the Tri Cities.

Vancouver is a more favorable city now because of Dave Cobb, no more no less. Cobb did more for the Canucks than you will know, but the simple fact was until he got here we too had no corporate support and he was the one that changed that/.
 
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vanlady said:
What I said was disposable income, considering our taxes alone are 12% higher than yours is a real statement. Bring in our real estate values where you can't buy a shack in Vancouver for less than half a million and yes you have a much higher disposable income. By the way your population is just under 1 million, ours is 1.3 million when you add up Surrey, Burnaby, north and West Van, Richmond and the Tri Cities.

Vancouver is a more favorable city now because of Dave Cobb, no more no less. Cobb did more for the Canucks than you will know, but the simple fact was until he got here we too had no corporate support and he was the one that changed that/.

Vancouver has a population base or market share of 2.5 million. There is a huge difference.
 

kerrly

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vanlady said:
What I said was disposable income, considering our taxes alone are 12% higher than yours is a real statement. Bring in our real estate values where you can't buy a shack in Vancouver for less than half a million and yes you have a much higher disposable income. By the way your population is just under 1 million, ours is 1.3 million when you add up Surrey, Burnaby, north and West Van, Richmond and the Tri Cities.

Vancouver is a more favorable city now because of Dave Cobb, no more no less. Cobb did more for the Canucks than you will know, but the simple fact was until he got here we too had no corporate support and he was the one that changed that/.

Actually Vancouver is listed at 2.1 million according to Stats Canada.

I did not suggest that your argument of disposable income wasn't valid. But what I did state was fact, your tickets are priced higher because the market dictates that. Vancouver has more corporate support, because they have the oppurtunity to have more (whether Cobb helped or not), Edmonton's oppurtunities to create corporate support are nowhere near that of Vancouver's. Vancouver has always been a mid market team, and almost always has had payrolls to dictate it.
 
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vanlady

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kerrly said:
Actually Vancouver is listed at 2.1 million according to Stats Canada.

I did not suggest that your argument of disposable income wasn't valid. But what I did state was fact, your tickets are priced higher because the market dictates that. Vancouver has more corporate support, because they have the oppurtunity to have more (whether Cobb helped or not), Edmonton's oppurtunities to create corporate support are nowhere near that of Vancouver's. Vancouver has always been a mid market team, and almost always has had payrolls to dictate it.

Actually Stats Can includes everything from Whistler to Chilliwack in that number, no one in there right mind thinks that Chilliwack, Squamish and Whistler are part of Vancouver. I do mailings for a charity and I can tell you without the breakdown for the areas I posted above which is a reasonable depiction of the GVRD is 1.3 million. Put it this way it would be like including everything from Fox Creek to Smokey Lake to Red Deer in the Edmonton population.

What drives me crazy and now I can understand how the players feel, is all I have heard from you is excuses, I have yet to hear how you and your team are going to help yourselves. Nothing about hedging to prevent issues with the dollar, finding someone with strong business accumen to run the finances, no strong marketing campaign, nothing. Until I hear a strong business plan you don't get a cap concession from me.

As for other teams, the Pens and Isles will never sustain any floor you put in because of the rediculous arena leases they are in. The Sabres and Senators are still recovering from there bankruptcies thanks to crooked owners and will still be in the lose catagory until they can develop the ability to refinance or hedge some of the debt.

Thanks to refinacing if Pheonix and Florida can get up and running they should be fine, they both just changed there arena deals that will save them between 12-15 million a year. Florida has also developed a very unique marketing plan that should be very interesting to watch unfold.

Show me a willingness to help yourself like Pheonix and Florida, you might get some sympathy. Remember God the bank and the NHLPA help those who help themselves
 

MarkZackKarl

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VanLady :

The Sens debt is negligable ... I think i read that it is less than 40 million... which seems odd because when Melnyk purchased the club he said that there would be no debt on it... All I know is that he paid something like 74 million Canadian for the Sens and they are now valued at 117 million... Thats an appreciation of 43 million in the space of 1.5 years!

So... the Sens do not have any significant debt... unless someone can explain how a bankruptcy would still leave them with debt?
 

vanlady

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scaredsensfan said:
VanLady :

The Sens debt is negligable ... I think i read that it is less than 40 million... which seems odd because when Melnyk purchased the club he said that there would be no debt on it... All I know is that he paid something like 74 million Canadian for the Sens and they are now valued at 117 million... Thats an appreciation of 43 million in the space of 1.5 years!

So... the Sens do not have any significant debt... unless someone can explain how a bankruptcy would still leave them with debt?

40 million is still debt. I do agree with you about the appreciation though. Eugene Melnyk has done a great job turning the team around.

You can still emerge from bankruptcy with debt if the lender agrees to it, Air Canada is prime example of that. Generally the creditor will give what is commonly called lending facilities, another words loans to pay off other creditors.
 

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CarlRacki said:
That's a very limited definition of competitiveness. You'd have a hard time convincing many Flames, Sabres, Hurricanes and Ducks fans their teams have been competitive over the past five years because they've appeared in the Conference Finals.
it would be better to be STL or BOS who have been in the playoffs every year but have never even get a sniff ?
 

wazee

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vanlady said:
The Stars left Minnesota because they had been playing in the same arena for 26 years. They still had the same ownership in Dallas for at least a year. So yes the run in Minnesota financed there future success.

http://www.leg.state.mn.us/lrl/issues/hockey.asp

UM where did you get the Canucks had money? Arthur Griffiths had to sell the team to John McCaw because of money. Jeeez if it hadn't been money the Griffiths family would still own the Canucks. I have been a season ticket holder long enough to know exactly how bad the finances were in the 90's and why. Guess what that reason was, GM Place.

Any system that is put in place simply so that you can create equality for extremely poorly run franchises is something I am not interested in.

I think you are really stretching to say that a playoff run in 1991 in Minnesota financed the Stars in the late 90s. And it seems ironic that the two teams you use as example of success under the old CBA both had to move before winning a Cup.

I did not say the Canucks had money during the 90s. I only stated that they were in the middle of the salary pack...and, for one year at least, they were 6th in the league. I got my numbers from THN Bucks and Pucks issues. If you want to argue about those numbers, fine, but your claim that Vancouver is a small market, small budget team does not fit with the historical facts.

I asked you a question in my previous post. You did not answer so I will ask again. Do you think the new CBA will be bad for the Canucks? And, if so, why?
 

thinkwild

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When Modano was on the North Stars, like Yzerman, there were still questions whether he had it what it takes. In Dallas, he fully developed into that player. With a new arena and market that allowed the owner to capitalize much more on a good teams revenue generating abilities. Something that wouldnt likely change with a cap.

I dont think anything Bryden did was necessarily criminal. Risky, and failed for non hockey reasons, but not really criminal. He did attempt some questionable tax schemes but it didnt pan out.

What Melnyk brought was cash. Bryden tried to buy the team on credit. Melnyk paid cash for his investment. This alone is the differnce. Iys not that he is spending foolishly. With no debt servicing, the profitablity is changed drastically. Now you can say we are lucky some billionaire bought it for cash, but that has to be the way. If you are going to try and buy a team on credit, making mortgage payments, you are going to have a hard time competing I would think. You have to have the money to buy a team. This is the big leagues.
 

vanlady

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wazee said:
I think you are really stretching to say that a playoff run in 1991 in Minnesota financed the Stars in the late 90s. And it seems ironic that the two teams you use as example of success under the old CBA both had to move before winning a Cup.

I did not say the Canucks had money during the 90s. I only stated that they were in the middle of the salary pack...and, for one year at least, they were 6th in the league. I got my numbers from THN Bucks and Pucks issues. If you want to argue about those numbers, fine, but your claim that Vancouver is a small market, small budget team does not fit with the historical facts.

I asked you a question in my previous post. You did not answer so I will ask again. Do you think the new CBA will be bad for the Canucks? And, if so, why?

Moving in both situations had more to arenas and taxes than anything to do with payroll

What makes the Canucks a small market team is population. Compared to 80% of the other NHL cities Vancouver is very small market. There is a huge difference between small market and small budget.

Any CBA that forces teams to dump players because of an artificial salary restraint instead of performance is bad for the Canucks. Good management is all about good management, that is not limited to trades and drafting, but also creative financing and marketing stratagies.
 

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vanlady said:
Actually Stats Can includes everything from Whistler to Chilliwack in that number, no one in there right mind thinks that Chilliwack, Squamish and Whistler are part of Vancouver. I do mailings for a charity and I can tell you without the breakdown for the areas I posted above which is a reasonable depiction of the GVRD is 1.3 million. Put it this way it would be like including everything from Fox Creek to Smokey Lake to Red Deer in the Edmonton population.

Are you sure? I don't see any of those places listed here.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/pro...r&A=&TypeNameE=Census Metropolitan Area&Prov=
 

kerrly

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vanlady said:
Actually Stats Can includes everything from Whistler to Chilliwack in that number, no one in there right mind thinks that Chilliwack, Squamish and Whistler are part of Vancouver. I do mailings for a charity and I can tell you without the breakdown for the areas I posted above which is a reasonable depiction of the GVRD is 1.3 million. Put it this way it would be like including everything from Fox Creek to Smokey Lake to Red Deer in the Edmonton population.

What drives me crazy and now I can understand how the players feel, is all I have heard from you is excuses, I have yet to hear how you and your team are going to help yourselves. Nothing about hedging to prevent issues with the dollar, finding someone with strong business accumen to run the finances, no strong marketing campaign, nothing. Until I hear a strong business plan you don't get a cap concession from me.

As for other teams, the Pens and Isles will never sustain any floor you put in because of the rediculous arena leases they are in. The Sabres and Senators are still recovering from there bankruptcies thanks to crooked owners and will still be in the lose catagory until they can develop the ability to refinance or hedge some of the debt.

Thanks to refinacing if Pheonix and Florida can get up and running they should be fine, they both just changed there arena deals that will save them between 12-15 million a year. Florida has also developed a very unique marketing plan that should be very interesting to watch unfold.

Show me a willingness to help yourself like Pheonix and Florida, you might get some sympathy. Remember God the bank and the NHLPA help those who help themselves

As soon as you become my university professor, I'll have that detailed business plan on your desk. Guarantee me three credits for it, and I'll guarantee an "A" paper. I was never asked to propose anything like that, I try to stick on topic and answer the questions that were given to me.
 

NYR469

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CarlRacki said:
How many of those teams have sustained their success. Ottawa, yes. Tampa? They probably will. Calgary? Too early to tell, but the fact they missed seven straight postseasons prior to last year doesn't bode well. Anaheim? Nope. Minnesota? Nope.

The issue shouldn't be who can make a one-year run, but who can compete consistently. And if you look at NHL standings over the past decade, the most consistent contenders are also the teams that spend the most.

everyone refers to the nfl's competitive balance and points out how teams like san diego can go from 4-12 to 12-4 from one year to the next as an example of competitive balance and why every fan can go into the season thinking their team has a chance.

they do NOT refer to the fact that a team like philly, green bay and new england are good year after year...

having a small market team like calgary being good year after year is no better for competitive balance then having the red wings being good year after year. it might give other small market teams that they can have the same success, but if the same teams have success every year it isn't competitive balance regardless of their payrolls. because if the same teams have success every year that means the same teams aren't having success each year...

personally i agree with your idea that teams that run themselves properly should be able to retain their players to sustain success...but that isn't what the nfl does. the nfl cap forces teams to lose their players because they have to release them for cap reasons, it doesn't help them keep them. and the nfl strives for mediocrity across the board so every team has a chance...

but you can't agrue that every team should have a chance each year AND that the same teams should win every year unless you want a 30-team tourney replacing the playoffs.
 

NYR469

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vanlady said:
Unfortunately in the NFL teams have been circumventing the cap every time the league plugs one hole the owners find another, look no further than back loaded contracts.

backloaded contracts aren't ways to get around the cap since the average salary is taken into consideration and signing bonuses are spread evenly over the length of the contract. backloaded contracts can allow teams to appear to be over the cap but they really aren't since the team makes out 1 year and loses the next...

as an example back in 97 when the rangers signed sakic to an offer sheet it was a 3 year, $21 mil offer with a $15 mil signing bonus and a base salary of $2 mil/year. he would NOT count $17 mil the first year and then $2 mil the 2nd and 3rd year, he would count $7 mil all 3 years.
 

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As long as you have teams with incredibly diverse budgets, the league will continue to be unfair. Who the hell wants a league where 40% of the teams never have a chance. The NHLPA of course wants the same deal baseball has and points to it as a success. Baseball is the worse example of sports system and it will come crashing down in 2006. It has become absolutely ridiculous. When studying economics there is always talk about how governments raise money through taxes. It's always better to broaden the tax base then to raise taxes to a higher level. Create an environment through low taxes where more business are able to open up. It's the same in sports. Is it better to have fewer teams of higher paid players? I think a league is healthier if there are more teams competing. The track the NHLPA wants to go down is a system where salaries keep spiralling out of control and the risk of losing some teams is not a concern. I find it crazy that this association doesn't care that they could lose 50-100 members through contraction. Keeping as many players employed should be their first concern.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/MoneyMatters/2005/01/28/913366-ap.html

This is why a salary cap is not necessary:

I have made the following points variously in a number of threads over the past while. I am trying to bring them together in some semblance of order. The post is kind of long but please bear with me as this is a rather complicated subject. If you do not like long posts - DO NOT READ FURTHER!!!!

The problem Bettman has is that instituting a real salary cap starts with complete disclosure of revenues which is completely foreign to how the NHL owners operate. That is why every time a luxury tax or revenue sharing is mentioned Bettman acts like a deer caught in the headlights - like a cap, a luxury tax and revenue sharing would require financial disclosure.

What Bettman and the owners are trying to do is set an artificial cap level (initially proposed at $31 million) without first going through and proving what the total league revenues actually are upon which a cap would be based. The NFL, NBA and even MLB have disclosed revenues to the respective player associations - but not the NHL owners. The best we get is a work of fiction by Arthur Levitt, the guy who was supposed to ride herd on the the SU Securities and Exchange Commission and protect consumers - on his watch you has Enron and World.com.

A report on the NHL by by investment banker Moag & Company this past summer summed up the league's stand on revenue sharing this way:

"There is currently no plan emanating from the Commissioner’s office to tie a salary cap to revenue sharing. Previously, the players’ union has said that it would only consider limiting salaries in the context of significant revenue sharing. That said, the league has suggested in the past that revenue sharing does not require NHLPA approval. If nothing else, this rhetoric suggests that the owners have been unable to agree even amongst themselves as it relates to revenue sharing."

A consultant who works for the NHL was more blunt, telling the New York Post recently, "Hockey owners won't do this; they'll fight to the end not to share their revenues, since most of them get their revenue locally. The real trouble is that the conflict isn't going to just a labor issue of players versus owners — it's going to be owners against owners."

Many experts (such as Matt Witting and Stephen Ross of UBC law school) dispute that salary caps are at all useful. Other people have pointed out that the NBA soft cap doesn't work very well at all and the NFL cap is all but ignored.

The NFL system works fairly well NOT because of the salary cap but because of the socialistic nature of the NFL and its huge TV contract. Revenues are shared across the board in the NFL including locally generated rewvenues.

As John Davidson on SportsNet points out the owners in the NFL generally are family or closely held private companies not conglomerates that you see in the NHL. Such owners would have problems surviving in the NHL (think Arthur Griffiths) but because of the revenue sharing (and the HUGE TV contract) they can not only survive but compete. As Davidson points out it is easy for the conglomerates to move money around within subsidiary and associated companies to hide the actual ammount of hockey related revenues.

As one NFL insider put it rather pithily:
"If you can't make money in the NFL, I think you may be considered the village idiot," (referring to the owners).

However although the NFL supposedly has a hard cap M.J. Duberstein, who is research director for the National Football League Players Association, told USA Today "If you total up the actual dollars paid to players since the cap came in with the 1994 season, the total is $2 billion greater than the sum of all the salary caps."

So even the so-called hard cap is honoured more in the breach than in practise even in the NFL AND the NBA is worse.

"An effective salary cap is too Draconian and unreasonable. If you're going to use a cap to drive down player salaries, you're just padding owners' pockets," economist Andrew Zimbalist was quoted as saying by USA Today.

While good for owners, Stephen Ross, a University of Illinois sports law professor who also teaches classes at the University of British Columbia, said salary caps can be bad for fans.

"It is the solution to cost certainly and it is a solution to rising costs," said Ross, who has written an article on salary caps for the UBC Law Review.

"But salary caps come at the expense of the best interests of fans of every team other than the Stanley Cup champion."

A salary cap can make it difficult for a team to rebuild, Ross said.

He also argues the NHL wants a salary cap that guarantees owners can make money even if they are bad businessman and no matter what market they operate in.

"Things need to be done to permit well run teams to make money," Ross said.

"The problem is the salary cap guarantees all teams, well run and poorly run . . . will make money."

As Joe Sheehan of the Baseball Prospectus explained it, the goal of the salary cap, which he says should be actually called a payroll cap, is "to restrict the amount of money management can spend on labor. It's an agreement among competitors to inhibit the labor market, lowering salaries."

That would of course be an antitrust violation but for the NHLPA. The only way the league can avoid that issue is to get the union to agree to it in the collective bargaining process. That is why the NHLPA is so reluctant to agree to a cap.

How about the argument that Bettman and the NHL owners trot out that a salary cap will let them lower ticket prices? Not likely since revenue and profitability have little to do with ticket prices.

"Prices are set by teams to maximize revenue, and are based on anticipated demand. They are not set to "make up" whatever rise in payroll is anticipated, no matter how many teams send out letters to season-ticket holders claiming this to be the case. Rising player salaries do not drive ticket-price increases," Sheehan wrote in a column for the Baseball Prospectus.

Toronto Sun columnist Al Strachan once put it this way: "As for ticket prices, they reflect what the market will bear. The Maple Leafs have the highest prices in the league for one simple reason. People will buy them at that price. Surely you don't think that ticket prices will go down if salaries are reduced, do you? If you're that stupid, you could become a judge in this country."

How about building a team? Critics say a cap would do anything but encourage team building. In the NFL teams are often forced to make decisions where staying under the cap takes priority over building or keeping together a competitive team. Teams that draft well could eventually have to part with their players if they could not fit them under the team's salary cap.

"[A cap] punishes success, forcing well-built, winning teams to shed talent on a near-constant basis," said Joe Sheehan of the Baseball Prospectus.

Larry Brooks of the New York Post said a cap "would destroy team-building, would destroy the ability of a successful club to maintain its nucleus. It would base every personnel decision on an ability to pay while remaining under a prohibitive cap."

That, in a way, benefits teams who makes poor decisions. They'll have an excuse for not being able to put together a competitive team because their hands are tied by the cap.

"No matter what the level of the salary cap, there are going to be a lot of teams who have lousy teams because they have overpaid, underachieving players and now they are at the cap level," Ross, the law professor, told the Canadian Press. "If you are an owner, that's exactly what you want. You want to be able to tell your fans 'I'm sorry there is nothing I can do to improve the product because of the cap.' The fans are stuck with another year of a lousy team."

Here is my analysis of salary caps based on Matt Witting's comprehensive study of salary caps.

The owners are trying to fix the problem - which is that any number of them and their GM's do not have a clue how to run their teams AS A BUSINESS. They want to transfer the results their own incompetence to the players without addressing the underlying management problems.

The NHL owners refuse to share revenue with one another yet they demand that the players in effect do this for them. Not likely to happen with someone as astute as Bob Goodenow at the helm for the players - Goodenow is NOT "Good Old Al Eagleson the Owners' Pal".

The NHL owners have historically misled and defrauded the players, diverted revenues, hid income, etc. - why is now any different? The NHL owners have steadfastly refused to open up the real books so there is no starting point for a salary cap since there is no real number to set such a cap against.

Some players have a different view as do some GM's. Here is one player and a former GM (The Mouth that Roared - Brian Burke) on this issue. Sather sang the same tune while in Edmonton but he has gone over to the dark side in New York.

"If they [the owners] want to pay us, they must be making money, it's not up to us to say: 'No, don't give us that much money.' " - Vincent Damphousse.

"I have never been more embarrassed to work in the NHL as I was on July 1st and 2nd [2001]. I know we can't support the salaries. I know that some of the teams who have spent that money are doing it without the financial capability to pay the money. I'm running my business like a business. I'm going head-to-head with people who are crazy, as far as I'm concerned."-Vancouver Canucks GM Brian Burke, July 2001

As former financial guru and the guy who guided the Canucks financial ship for the past few years prior to joining the Vancouver Olympic Committee, David Cobb, chief operating officer of the Vancouver Canucks, said it is important not to lose perspective in the debate.

"We're in a period of time with our franchise where we have an excellent team, we have excellent support from our fans, we have the top retail sales in the league, we have the busiest website in the league," Cobb said. "Everything's going well for us."

One moral - run your team as a business and do not hire financial idiots (think Pat Quinn, Mike Milbury and Booby Clarke) - and you can do well under the current system.

MEMO TO THE OWNERS AND BETTMAN - INSTEAD OF TRYING TO HAVE THE PLAYERS IDIOT-PROOF YOUR BUSINESS - TRY NOT HIRING IDIOTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And here is another quote to keep in mind when talking about salary caps from yours truly:

"Be careful what you ask for you just might get it." - Wetcoaster

Many are braying for a salary cap without faintest clue of what it is and what it entails.

It is complex and takes some time to wrap your mind around the concepts. Fortunately there was a consultant and statistician in Washington, DC, Matt Witting, who did an incredibly detailed and exhaustive in-depth study comparing the salary capped NFL and NBA to the capless MLB and NHL in February 2003. His figures, charts and analysis reveal some very interesting things. They also explode a number of popular myths about salary caps and their effects on competition and the movement of players.

There is a lot of simplistic bashing of the NHLPA and the players. It takes place IMHO because the players' salaries are visible. Crank up the NHLPA website and others and you can see what each player makes. Salary disclosure was one of the best things Bob Goodenow pushed so that teams could not trade on player ignorance in negotiations as had been the past practise but it is a two-edged sword. However try and find out what owners make off the game - good luck.

Most team owners run a series of companies, usually private, with the hockey operations in one company while revenue generation from hockey related operations are held elsewhere. The NHLPA has challenged the owners to open up all the books and prove their contention that the game is not economically viable. The owners have steadfastly refused the request. The Leavitt report did not look at the real books only those figures the owners already voluntarily disclose to the league.

If you intend to institute a salary cap as in the NFL or NBA, the first requirement is complete financial disclosure by ownership (as was done in those leagues) as there has to be some form of revenue equalization and establishment of a formula which forms the cap. Any other approach is pure salary suppression and done only on the backs of the players. That is the system the NHL owners are trying to impose.

The NHL owners refusal to disclose leads me to conclude what they are looking to do is cap salaries without revenue sharing. In other words the entire burden will fall on the players and ownership is free to do what it wishes. This was actually done in the last CBA where the NHLPA agreed to salary restrictions for new players entering the NHL. The maximum salary was set at $1.175 million for 2002 and bonuses were restricted. If you want to see this check out Article 9 of the CBA "Entry level Compensation". The CBA can be found at:
http://www-ix.oit.umass.edu/~splaw488/NHL_CBA.htm
or http://letsgopens.com/nhl_cba.php

It simply is not going to happen this way for established players. In restricting entry level compensation the NHLPA in effect gave away rights for players who were not yet even part of the association - cynical yes but a very good bargaining chip. Besides who was going to complain.

When salary controls are proposed they are supposed to accomplish all or at least most of the following:
-keep team salaries down
-keep individual player salaries at a reasonable levels
-keep ticket prices increases under control
-reduce the difference between "haves" and "have-nots" and
-increase competition on ice league-wide.

Salary caps are not the be-all and end-all and do not necessarily work as intended and they have side effects. For example under the NFL cap system trades of any skilled player is virtually impossible. Just think no more trade deadline fun in the NHL. The "Law of Unintended Consequences" has dogged the salary cap systems in the NBA and NFL

As I noted above many fans fail to realize that the NHL already has a salary cap in place. The maximum entry-level compensation for players under the age of 25 is dealt with under Article 9 of the NHL CBA which limits the maximum yearly compensation for rookies to just over $1.25 million in salary and 50% of that in signing, reporting and roster bonuses for 2002. It went up another $50,000 this year. Rookie contracts are also deemed to be two-way deals under the CBA.

The NHL had a salary cap in place for decades (they just lied to the players and colluded with Al Eagleson on sweetheart deals) until Goodenow brought the NHLPA into the modern pro sports world and the NHL still does for new players entering the league.

A general salary cap for players without the NHL owners agreeing to revenue sharing will be a non-starter. The NHLPA will never agree and do not forget the players have their agents and their own legal and finacial advisers who keep them informed of the effects and ramifications of any changes in the CBA. This is not the 1950's when you can give Gordie Howe a team jacket to keep him happy. Or banish superstars like Ted Lindsay to Chicago and Doug Harvey to New York for challenging the owners hegemony.

The NBA and NFL caps are based on calculating league-wide revenue from virtually all basketball/football sources and revenue streams to generate a figure against which an allowable salary ceiling for each team is calculated. If you have ever read the CBA's for the NBA or NFL (and I have) you will realize they are two of the most complicated and convoluted labour relations documents ever produced. Teams employ an army of legal and accounting consultants on a full-time basis to assist them in conducting their business and in negotiating contracts. It takes three weeks in the NBA to figure out if you can make a trade.

The NHL owners have consistently refused to consider revenue sharing and will not disclose how much money is being made from all hockey related enterprises. In most cases the hockey operation, i.e. the team is run under one set of books while other income is generated through other companies. The NHLPA has challenged the owners to open the books so a true picture of the financial system can be seen. The owners have refused. As noted the Leavitt report was nothing more than another PR exercise produced by the owners to buttress their position pending the nuts and bolts of the labour negotiations.

Quite rightly the players resist being the only side making the financial sacrifice. Historically in the NHL the owners r@ped and pillaged the players before the advent of the NHLPA. Probably the single most important move by the NHLPA was Goodenow publishing individual salaries and making contracts public. In the past players were forbidden from discussing salary on pain of suspension or being blackballed. It led to such things as Gordie Howe in his heyday being only the fourth or fifth highest paid player on the Wings while he was the best player in the league.

There are various forms of salary control.

The NBA cap which Bettman helped design and implement is a "soft" cap. The teams must disclose their Basketball Related Income ("BRI") which includes revenue from tickets, advertising, local concession and souvenir sales, local media and other league, team and arena income streams. The current NBA cap for each team is 55% of the total BRI for the league. Only two teams (Detroit and LA Clippers) were under the cap - the other 28 teams were over. There is also a luxury tax in the NBA. However there are so many exceptions and loopholes the cap is more honoured in the breach rather than compliance. Since most exceptions relate to the star players and their higher salaries, the cap has virtually no effect on the players for whom the cap was intended in the first place but it does hurt the journeymen.

The NFL has what is referred to as a "hard" cap. Again league revenue is calculated in much the same way as the NBA but it is called Defined Gross Revenues ("DGR"). There are virtually no exceptions - hence it is a "hard" cap. The cap is set at 63% - higher than the NBA but remember that football rosters are much larger.

Also you often hear of huge long-term NFL deals. However if a player is cut, his contract ends. So if he has 5 years left on a $5 million per year 7 year contract once he is released, the team is no longer obligated to pay. This differs from the NHL where contracts are guaranteed and if you want to end a contract you must pay out the remainder at 2/3 or negotiate a buy-out. This was the Pierre Turgeon situation in Dallas.

Of course many star NFL'ers (and their agents) know this and they sign deals with huge signing bonuses paid up front. Under the NFL system teams can then average out the bonus over the term of the contract for the purposes of calculating the team's yearly cap number.

So taking the example above a player may sign a $35 million contract with a 7 year term. His salary is $2 million per year and he has $21 million dollar signing bonus in his pocket. Essentially he has a $23 million guaranteed contract. The team is not charged $23 million in the first year under its cap but rather is permitted to spread out the total contract over the total term so it is only charged $5 million per year against its cap. However if the player is released, traded or injured the entire signing bonus (or its remainder) now becomes part of the team's next year cap. For example our player blows out his knee and retires. Now the cap room is lessened by $19 million dollars and you must still try to replace the player. Many NFL teams have run into this problem. Also do you think there is any way this player is going to be traded?

Mark Witting in his extremely detailed study of salary caps has concluded a number of things. If a cap is in place there is less of a gap between the "haves and "have nots" and the wealth distribution is more even. That is not surprising since that is the starting point for a salary cap.

However he found that in the NFL the competitive balance difference pre- and post cap was negligible and had done nothing for league wide parity.

In the NBA the cap was instituted (according to the league) to protect smaller market teams and increase their competitiveness. It has not worked as in 18 years the 4 largest markets have won 14 titles while in the previous 18 years (pre-cap) the 4 largest market team only won 5 titles.

He finds that baseball with no salary cap has excellent competitive balance across the league and that the NHL has been its most competitive in the last 20 years looking at each decade since 1926-27.

After his detailed calculations and analysis he concludes:

"The two leagues (NHL and MLB) without caps and significant revenue sharing seem to produce more balanced competition than the leagues with cost-of-labour restrictions over the last 8 years. In addition, we saw that the restrictions did little if anything to improve competition in the NFL and may have actually hurt the NBA's pursuit of parity."

How about player salaries? He found as follows:
"Just like in un-capped sports, salary caps don't strongly influence the escalation of player salaries. Players perceived as stars are being paid tremendous sums in all four sports (hockey least of all) while the salaries and job status of the low end and mid range players are adjusted to compensate."

On trades he finds:
"Salary caps were not set up to decrease the ability of teams to better themselves for the post-season/future through trades, but they have had that effect in both the NBA and NFL."

That could mean no more fun on trade deadline day when real hockey fans take a sick day and hunker down in front of the sports channels.

How about the effect of salary caps in rebuilding a team:
"(NFL) teams are often encumbered with "dead money", payable to players no longer on the roster but still counting against the cap. Teams with significant dead money can't afford to sign as many experienced/quality players and suffer for it. The descent into salary cap hell is often caused by a team doing everything possible to win in one season by knowingly compromising the future. The team and fans are then forced to pay for a short period of prosperity with what can be a long stretch of mediocrity or worse. This peculiar phenomenon is not found in baseball or hockey, although it is appearing occasionally in the NBA."

The moral - be careful what you ask for you just might get it.
 

bhawk24bob

Registered User
Jan 25, 2005
378
5
likea said:
what team do you cheer for, cause you have no idea what it is like for the small market fans

our teams are broken up after a few years because of money

just because owners can use their own money to keep and buy players doesn't make it right

stop whining. i've said it in this thread already, but i'm going to do it again- this lockout is not, in any way, shape, or form, happening to make the league more competitive. it is taking place because the owners want to make more money.

the owners have seemed to have done a good job fooling the general public about this though.
 

CarlRacki

Registered User
Feb 9, 2004
1,442
2
bhawk24bob said:
stop whining. i've said it in this thread already, but i'm going to do it again- this lockout is not, in any way, shape, or form, happening to make the league more competitive. it is taking place because the owners want to make more money.

the owners have seemed to have done a good job fooling the general public about this though.

Oh, well, geez, we might as well just shut down the board now that the ultimate authority has spoken. No need to discuss the complextities of the lockout or its possible resolutions. If we'd only found you sooner, we all could have save lots of time. :shakehead
 

likea

Registered User
Jul 9, 2004
599
0
bhawk24bob said:
stop whining. i've said it in this thread already, but i'm going to do it again- this lockout is not, in any way, shape, or form, happening to make the league more competitive. it is taking place because the owners want to make more money.

the owners have seemed to have done a good job fooling the general public about this though.


if the teams are more competitive, they will draw more fans, more fans=more tickets sold along with more people watching on TV

with more tickets sold and more fans watching on TV the NHL and the NHLPA both make loads more money and it also means the teams value increases because the sport has become more popular

competitive teams = more money

so while you are somewhat correct

this is about the small owner markets who are getting killed by the big owners and cannot compete both business wise and therefore on the ice

sorry, but in the NHL, their are alot more small market teams than big market and thats what this is about

the health of the NHL as a whole
 

Icey

Registered User
Jan 23, 2005
591
0
Then fix the NHL through growing revenues and revenue sharing, not by capping salaries.

Revenue sharing would fix the system as it is, but the NHL does not participate in any type of meaningful revenue sharing, nor does it propose to. That is the biggest problem.
 
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