Think Pete Rose has something to say about baseball jumping in bed with gamblers? You bet he does

[AtlantaWhaler]

The same Bonds that led all of baseball in homers in 93, well before his name was ever linked to anything??

46 home runs is a far cry from that 73 when he was twice the size.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

46 home runs is a far cry from that 73 when he was twice the size.

The cores of the baseballs were over 2x bigger in 2000 than in the pre lockout era, but let's ignore baseball's role in the era and blame the players...

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The cores of the baseballs were over 2x bigger in 2000 than in the pre lockout era, but let's ignore baseball's role in the era and blame the players...

So, the fact that nobody touching Maris for 40 years, then suddenly 3 steroid-using players crushing his record multiple times in a 4-year span is because of the baseball core?

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

So, the fact that nobody touching Maris for 40 years, then suddenly 3 steroid-using players crushing his record multiple times in a 4-year span is because of the baseball core?

3 players?!? Just look at the stats from that era. Homers were up for everyone. Brady Anderson who never hit more than 21 before all of a sudden hit 50. This wasn't a Bonds/McGwire/Sosa dependent era.

When you have multiple guys hitting 1 handed homers with a broken bat, you know it's more than just ped's.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

3 players?!? Just look at the stats from that era. Homers were up for everyone. Brady Anderson who never hit more than 21 before all of a sudden hit 50. This wasn't a Bonds/McGwire/Sosa dependent era.

When you have multiple guys hitting 1 handed homers with a broken bat, you know it's more than just ped's.

Well, we were posting about recognizing Maris as the true record holder. That's why I was honing in on Bonds/McGwire/Sosa.

There are certainly a few awesome players sprinkled in the highest HR list that (to our knowledge) didn't take roids (Griffy, Howard, A. Jones), but it's no way a coincidence that it was next to impossible to challenge the record for decades (most of the closest are from the 20's and 30's) and along comes the roid era and the record gets shattered multiple times.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Well, we were posting about recognizing Maris as the true record holder. That's why I was honing in on Bonds/McGwire/Sosa.

There are certainly a few awesome players sprinkled in the highest HR list that (to our knowledge) didn't take roids (Griffy, Howard, A. Jones), but it's no way a coincidence that it was next to impossible to challenge the record for decades (most of the closest are from the 20's and 30's) and along comes the roid era and the record gets shattered multiple times.

Baseball was coming off the strike and lost so much fan support it wasn't funny. Some cities completely gave up on their team (Montreal). The league needed to get interest back, so they juiced the baseballs and let the players take whatever they wanted to in the name of dingerz!

Once congress and people started questioning what was going on, baseball went into full finger-pointing mode and sold out the same players they had been patting on the back for years. I am so sick and tired of individual players getting a bad rep for what the game of baseball promoted.

Players took amphetamines back when Maris broke the record, and who knows what else. They were fortunate to live in eras before cell phones and extensive media coverage. They also didn't play against the best black and international baseball players. Who knows how they would be viewed differently if they were scrutinized half as much as the players of today and the late 90's are. People can crown Maris as the unofficial homer king if they want, but it doesn't make them any less wrong or naive.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Baseball was coming off the strike and lost so much fan support it wasn't funny. Some cities completely gave up on their team (Montreal). The league needed to get interest back, so they juiced the baseballs and let the players take whatever they wanted to in the name of dingerz!

Once congress and people started questioning what was going on, baseball went into full finger-pointing mode and sold out the same players they had been patting on the back for years. I am so sick and tired of individual players getting a bad rep for what the game of baseball promoted.

Players took amphetamines back when Maris broke the record, and who knows what else. They were fortunate to live in eras before cell phones and extensive media coverage. They also didn't play against the best black and international baseball players. Who knows how they would be viewed differently if they were scrutinized half as much as the players of today and the late 90's are. People can crown Maris as the unofficial homer king if they want, but it doesn't make them any less wrong or naive.

And people can blame a baseball core for 3 roid users all the sudden taking out a 40 year old record, but it doesn't make them any less wrong or naive.

HR	Player/Team	Year
73	Barry Bonds, San Francisco (N.L.)	2001
70	Mark McGwire, St. Louis (N.L.)	1998
66	Sammy Sosa, Chicago (N.L.)	1998
65	Mark McGwire, St. Louis (N.L.)	1999
64	Sammy Sosa, Chicago (N.L.)	2001
63	Sammy Sosa, Chicago (N.L.)	1999
61	Roger Maris, New York (A.L.)	1961
60	Babe Ruth, New York (A.L.)	1927
59	Babe Ruth, New York (A.L.)	1921
58	Jimmie Foxx, Philadelphia (A.L.)	1932
58	Hank Greenberg, Detroit (A.L.)	1938
58	Mark McGwire, Oakland (A.L.), St. Louis (N.L.)	1997

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Except the baseballs from that era and previous ones were ct scanned and compared. There's actual proof to what I'm saying instead of just being an old timer who wants to live in denial and believe my era is holier than all the others.

So what were all those guys on in the 20's or 30's??? Since apparently the only proof needed to bash someone's production is hearsay and correlation.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Except the baseballs from that era and previous ones were ct scanned and compared. There's actual proof to what I'm saying instead of just being an old timer who wants to live in denial and believe my era is holier than all the others.

So what were all those guys on in the 20's or 30's??? Since apparently the only proof needed to bash someone's production is hearsay and correlation.

Are you saying there is no proof to those guys taking steroids?

Ha...as I was writing that, I had visions of Harris saying "are you sayin Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?!"

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Are you saying there is no proof to those guys taking steroids?

Ha...as I was writing that, I had visions of Harris saying "are you sayin Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?!"

Do you have proof what they took and what the effects are?

If not, you're just speculating. The balls after the strike were proven to have much bigger cores than the baseballs prior. Anyone that has played baseball knows how significant the core is.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Do you have proof what they took and what the effects are?

If not, you're just speculating. The balls after the strike were proven to have much bigger cores than the baseballs prior. Anyone that has played baseball knows how significant the core is.

So, the fact that 3 PED users broke a 40-year old record 6 times within a 4-year span is purely coincidence?

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

So, the fact that 3 PED users broke a 40-year old record 6 times within a 4-year span is purely coincidence?

It's a combination of things. You're trying to blame it on 1 thing while ignoring other factors.

A majority of the names on the Mitchell report were players that weren't very good. They literally refute the point you're continuously making.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

It's a combination of things. You're trying to blame it on 1 thing while ignoring other factors.

A majority of the names on the Mitchell report were players that weren't very good. They literally refute the point you're continuously making.

And a lot of names on that list were plenty good. Doesn't matter.

All I need to see is the top of that list I posted earlier and it's plain as day to me.

 

[robert terwilliger]

mcgwire took andro which was legal at the time. bonds never failed a drug test and has been cleared of any wrongdoing despite millions upon millions of dollars spent on prosecuting him.

this was at a time where mlb decided that they didn't give a rip what players did, as they did for almost the entirety of mlb's history. they didn't want to hear about horse steroids, greenies, speed or any of the shit taken by those "good ol' boys" back in the day. they don't care that the hall of fame is littered with cheaters (and worse). they don't care that they precipitated it by turning a blind eye for generations. all they care about is opening the cases now and litigating them well after the fact with hearsay, suspicious and unproveable bunk because they got caught with their dick in the cookie jar.

also, maris being brought up might activate the robo maris signal. but also, maris is the true homerun king and bonds is a steroid laced fraud? maris hit 61 in 61, we all know that. he never hit more than 39 otherwise in his 12 year career. what, pray tell, explains that?

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

this was at a time where mlb decided that they didn't give a rip what players did, as they did for almost the entirety of mlb's history. they didn't want to hear about horse steroids, greenies, speed or any of the **** taken by those "good ol' boys" back in the day. they don't care that the hall of fame is littered with cheaters (and worse). they don't care that they precipitated it by turning a blind eye for generations. all they care about is opening the cases now and litigating them well after the fact with hearsay, suspicious and unproveable bunk because they got caught with their dick in the cookie jar.

I agree up until the last part. Mac admitted to it, Sosa has danced around the questions to basically sound guilty (and was made huge in just a couple years), and Bonds doubled in size in a 3 year span. Enough proof for me.

maris hit 61 in 61, we all know that. he never hit more than 39 otherwise in his 12 year career. what, pray tell, explains that?

An outlier year? Like Ryan Howard, Luis Gonzo, Dawson.....

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I agree up until the last part. Mac admitted to it, Sosa has danced around the questions to basically sound guilty (and was made huge in just a couple years), and Bonds doubled in size in a 3 year span. Enough proof for me.

Bonds was actually getting bigger for years. Nowadays he is a lot smaller because he has trained and become basically a pro biker.

That's what hall of fame athletes who care about their body, and body of work do. They work their ass off until they are the best in the world.

But I'm sure it's all some drugs or something.


An outlier year? Like Ryan Howard, Luis Gonzo, Dawson.....

Again, Mac admitted to Andro which was legal at the time. I knew kids in middle school and high school who were taking Andro to bulk up for football. Anyone could get it at your local GNC.

McGwire, Bonds and Sosa also had great years well before any implications. McGwire and Bonds led all of baseball in homers in '87 and '93 respectively.

How come you value the outliers of others without wondering how those outliers were reached, while trying to attribute the success of BETTER PLAYERS who had produced long before any drug talk solely to drugs? What is your end game here?

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

How come you value the outliers of others without wondering how those outliers were reached, while trying to attribute the success of BETTER PLAYERS who had produced long before any drug talk solely to drugs? What is your end game here?

I'm focusing at the top of the HR list, as discussed. I don't see that as "good players having a good few years" and call it some crazy coincidence. And, as you noted, the balls were also juiced (just like the players), so that makes the top of that list even more suspect.

 

[542365]

ITT about Pete Rose we deny PEDs do what PEDs so clearly, obviously, and intentionally do Just give it up, they're cheaters. Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, ARod etc. are cheaters. Cheaters don't deserve to be in the HoF or to have their names in the record books. Pete Rose also does not deserve it. He was banned for a reason, a justifiable reason.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I'm focusing at the top of the HR list, as discussed. I don't see that as "good players having a good few years" and call it some crazy coincidence. And, as you noted, the balls were also juiced (just like the players), so that makes the top of that list even more suspect.

But even before the players and balls were juiced Bonds and McGwire specifically were still 2 of the best home run hitters in the game. Steroids would maybe be a better argument against them if their home run totals magically shot up when the era began, but that's far from the case.

They shouldn't take the responsibility of an entire era. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

ITT about Pete Rose we deny PEDs do what PEDs so clearly, obviously, and intentionally do Just give it up, they're cheaters. Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, ARod etc. are cheaters. Cheaters don't deserve to be in the HoF or to have their names in the record books. Pete Rose also does not deserve it. He was banned for a reason, a justifiable reason.

Chad Allen, Larry Bigbie, Jason Christiansen, Chris Donnels, Matt Herges, Tim Laker, Josias, Manzanillo, Todd Pratt, Manny Alexander, Alex Cabrera, and countless others all showed up on the Mitchell report.

What exactly is the proof of ped's from that list??

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

But even before the players and balls were juiced Bonds and McGwire specifically were still 2 of the best home run hitters in the game. Steroids would maybe be a better argument against them if their home run totals magically shot up when the era began, but that's far from the case.

They shouldn't take the responsibility of an entire era. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

There were certainly good. ARod as well. But not 61 HR good until, when all the sudden, that number was crushed multiple times within this tight window of time.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

There were certainly good. ARod as well. But not 61 HR good until, when all the sudden, that number was crushed multiple times within this tight window of time.

I don't think that's exactly fair to say in Bonds' case. Before the '94 strike he was sitting at 37 homers in 474 pa's (hr about every 8% of his pa's) while also leading all of baseball in walks at the time. This was follwing the year he led all of baseball in hr's.

The year he broke the record he had 73 in 664 pa's (hr about every 11% of his pa's) while also leading in walks with 177.

While the increase in hr's per plate appearance is significant, he was still the beat player in the game before the record setting year, and had been for a long time.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I don't think that's exactly fair to say in Bonds' case. Before the '94 strike he was sitting at 37 homers in 474 pa's (hr about every 8% of his pa's) while also leading all of baseball in walks at the time. This was follwing the year he led all of baseball in hr's.

The year he broke the record he had 73 in 664 pa's (hr about every 11% of his pa's) while also leading in walks with 177.

While the increase in hr's per plate appearance is significant, he was still the beat player in the game before the record setting year, and had been for a long time.

Well, he literally doubled that 37 HR mark 8 years later. That's crazy. And the fact that he was the best in baseball with 37 shows how difficult it was to get to 61 in the first place.

Side note: LOL at 177 walks. That's crazy.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Well, he literally doubled that 37 HR mark 8 years later. That's crazy. And the fact that he was the best in baseball with 37 shows how difficult it was to get to 61 in the first place.

Side note: LOL at 177 walks. That's crazy.

It was the strike shortened year where they played about ~50 games fewer than normal

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

It was the strike shortened year where they played about ~50 games fewer than normal

Ah. Gotcha.