Post-Game Talk: they tried pretty hard tho

[Flowah]

We got larkin and,nielsen as our top 2 centers. We need a big physical scoring winger and a top 2 dman.

That is a truly sad top6 C group.

On a good team, like Chicago for example, Justin Abdelkader is 7th in cap hit just above Marcus Kruger's who's cap hit is just a little over a million less than Abby's.

Perspective.

Is the perspective we're supposed to have here that Holland is truly awful at handing out contracts of the right term and cost to the right players?

Because then we were already there ahead of you.

If that's true... why was Larkin so forbidden in trade talks? One would think you should jump at the chance to trade a 2C for a Jacob Trouba.

Probably because he's our only real shot at a 1C right now and it feels sucky to let him go. I'm really starting to come around to the idea. Though I guess I've never been THAT high on him. Even his first season he got a lot of flukey goals and rode a skyhigh SH% that was bound to drop. Since that first half of his first season he's been a pretty meh player in most respects. Never saw that "defensive" awareness either.

 

[HockeyinHD]

The problem isn't the singular contract, it's the habit that Holland has of signing mediocre players to 7 year deals. It sets a terrible precedent and hinders any creativity this franchise should have to make moves.

Enh. I know you're being facetious, but it's a 7 year contract. Nielsen and DK got 6, Helm 5, Glendening and Nyquist 4.

 

[dragonballgtz]

Do we really think Blash is instructing them to do that? That seems ridiculous. This is basic hockey ****. We have zero puck support and on some level I have to wonder if our players just have zero hockey IQ or compete because no one wants to seem to work for the puck.

Then why is he not addressing it? I'm sure his response would be, "It's a process". He has no clue on how to coach a team at the NHL level.

 

[njx9]

On a good team, like Chicago for example, Justin Abdelkader is 7th in cap hit just above Marcus Kruger's who's cap hit is just a little over a million less than Abby's.

Perspective.

Why are you talking about the cap hit, when it's clearly the term that makes the contract so ugly?

I don't disagree that it's not the biggest issue on a team that has very little actual talent, but signing ̶m̶e̶d̶i̶o̶c̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶p̶t̶h̶ *any* guys to lifetime contracts is moronic, no matter where you are in terms of rebuilding/competing/contending.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Do we really think Blash is instructing them to do that? That seems ridiculous. This is basic hockey ****. We have zero puck support and on some level I have to wonder if our players just have zero hockey IQ or compete because no one wants to seem to work for the puck.

It doesn't work like that. If a coach leaves those decisions up to the players, you end up with this:

or this

or this

Why did all these players lose their compete level and hockey IQ when Babcock left? Total coincidence?

If the players have to make the decision to move out of the position they're supposed to be in according to the system in order to give puck support, that's when things start to fall apart. Because not only are players going to be late to pucks (hey, we seem to be late a lot.. strange), if they leave their supposed position, someone else has to make the decision to either stay in their position or cover for the other guy. And you end up with a lot of players not knowing where they're supposed to be and who they're supposed to cover. Does this sound anything like a team you've been watching ?

 

[Flowah]

It doesn't work like that. If a coach leaves those decisions up to the players, you end up with this:
If the players have to make the decision to move out of the position they're supposed to be in according to the system in order to give puck support, that's when things start to fall apart. Because not only are players going to be late to pucks (hey, we seem to be late a lot.. strange), if they leave their supposed position, someone else has to make the decision to either stay in their position or cover for the other guy. And you end up with a lot of players not knowing where they're supposed to be and who they're supposed to cover. Does this sound anything like a team you've been watching ?

Again, I've played on beer league teams that knew how to cover for assignments better than this and we sure as hell didn't have coaches. Do you really think in some of those pictures it was a coach that was the problem? In what universe is having 4 players lined up like they're in a goddamn bobsled a thing that players with a hockey IQ over 50 do?

To me it screams:

1. No hockey IQ
2. No coaching discipline

But #1 comes before #2 and to me, is a far bigger problem. It's possible, perhaps probable, that a hardass like Babcock would have put such a fear of god into these players and had them adhere to such a rigorous system that they know exactly what to do at all times. But it is a huge goddamn problem that even the most basic parts of hockey seem foreign to them. I am sure someone will come back to me like "these are the top .00001% of hockey players in the world they know what they're doing" but that just doesn't appear to matter. Even squirt level players know that those pictures are examples of terrible hockey. Supporting each other on the puck is a no brainer. Not having 4 guys in one corner is a no brainer. Moving your feet to get open for passes for teammates is a no brainer.

We don't do any of these no brainers. Apparently that is primarily on the coach's shoulders? Sure, it's a problem that he's not making the players change this awful play. But it sure seems to me to be an even bigger problem that basic hockey seems not to be understood by supposedly elite level hockey players.

Also how did he have so much success at the AHL level? Was it possible that it works when you have talent but not when you don't? That the talent he had at the AHL level was good enough but that talent just isn't good enough at the NHL level? I think that's a pretty likely scenario.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Again, I've played on beer league teams that knew how to cover for assignments better than this and we sure as hell didn't have coaches. Do you really think in some of those pictures it was a coach that was the problem? In what universe is having 4 players lined up like they're in a goddamn bobsled a thing that players with a hockey IQ over 50 do?

To me it screams:

1. No hockey IQ
2. No coaching discipline

But #1 comes before #2 and to me, is a far bigger problem. It's possible, perhaps probable, that a hardass like Babcock would have put such a fear of god into these players and had them adhere to such a rigorous system that they know exactly what to do at all times. But it is a huge goddamn problem that even the most basic parts of hockey seem foreign to them. I am sure someone will come back to me like "these are the top .00001% of hockey players in the world they know what they're doing" but that just doesn't appear to matter. Even squirt level players know that those pictures are examples of terrible hockey. Supporting each other on the puck is a no brainer. Not having 4 guys in one corner is a no brainer. Moving your feet to get open for passes for teammates is a no brainer.

We don't do any of these no brainers. Apparently that is primarily on the coach's shoulders? Sure, it's a problem that he's not making the players change this awful play. But it sure seems to me to be an even bigger problem that basic hockey seems not to be understood by supposedly elite level hockey players.

Also how did he have so much success at the AHL level? Was it possible that it works when you have talent but not when you don't? That the talent he had at the AHL level was good enough but that talent just isn't good enough at the NHL level? I think that's a pretty likely scenario.

Your beer league likely operates at about 1/100th the speed of the average NHL game. There's a lot more time out there, you can probably have a drink as you're looking around the ice seeing who to cover. The NHL is a game of split-second decisions, and ideally you want a system that operates so smoothly and with everyone being so familiar with it that players barely have to think about coverage or puck support, it just works. If one player is not working hard and not providing puck support and not being in the right positions, it's that player's fault. If an entire roster struggles with those things, it's highly unlikely that it's a hockey IQ/work ethic problem.

At the NHL level, coaches have to make sure players know where to be in different situations. It's not just about giving them a basic overview of the system and then trusting in their common sense to move their feet to get open or support eachother. If the other team is playing an actual good system where players don't even have to make the "no brainer" decisions, that team will look faster out there. They will get to pucks quicker, they will have puck support and outlets in the right positions at the right time. They don't have to make decisions, they know if the puck is at X, I need to provide puck support. If the puck goes towards Y, another players provides that support. Meanwhile our players are forced to figure things out themselves and end up looking slow and confused. Sound familiar?

As for why Blashill was succesful in the AHL, maybe he's just one of the 40-50 best coaches in NA hockey? One of the worst of the NHL, but one of the best in the AHL? And sure, better talent relative to the league he was in helps. Maybe what he was doing worked down there but not in the NHL where he has shown a poor ability to adjust and seems to be getting outcoached every game. Maybe he's the Pulkkinen of coaches.

It's even strange to argue that it's the players fault when we have seen 90% of these players look a lot better under different coaches in different systems. Either they've completely tuned out Blashill or they're doing what he wants them to do. Neither scenario is a good one.

 

[Flowah]

Your beer league likely operates at about 1/100th the speed of the average NHL game. There's a lot more time out there, you can probably have a drink as you're looking around the ice seeing who to cover. The NHL is a game of split-second decisions, and ideally you want a system that operates so smoothly and with everyone being so familiar with it that players barely have to think about coverage or puck support, it just works. If one player is not working hard and not providing puck support and not being in the right positions, it's that player's fault. If an entire roster struggles with those things, it's highly unlikely that it's a hockey IQ/work ethic problem.

It's even strange to argue that it's the players fault when we have seen 90% of these players look a lot better under different coaches in different systems. Either they've completely tuned out Blashill or they're doing what he wants them to do. Neither scenario is a good one.

Maybe you're right about the speed, but I really don't think so. Some of those board battles take 2-4 seconds and *people are just standing around.*

And they looked better back when the team was better. I can't believe I'm saying this, but we had KQ who apparently was holding DK up, and we had Datsyuk, 2nd best possession player in the league since 2007. Every year, Z gets older, Kronner gets more busted.

Again I'm not saying Babcock wouldn't be getting better results. I'm saying it's maybe 25% coaching and 75% players. The players just aren't that good and the best players are getting older, slower, worse.

 

[Heaton]

Enh. I know you're being facetious, but it's a 7 year contract. Nielsen and DK got 6, Helm 5, Glendening and Nyquist 4.

OK, whatever, 5+ year deals for mediocre players. Ericsson got 6 years, Howard got 5(?). It's just bad cap management.

 

[Dotter]

Why are you talking about the cap hit, when it's clearly the term that makes the contract so ugly?

I don't disagree that it's not the biggest issue on a team that has very little actual talent, but signing ̶m̶e̶d̶i̶o̶c̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶p̶t̶h̶ *any* guys to lifetime contracts is moronic, no matter where you are in terms of rebuilding/competing/contending.

Why is the term a problem when the general consensus here is Wings won't be making a hard push for the cup in 5 to 10 more years? Probably 7 years if EVERYTHING goes right and they get EXTREMELY lucky before they can compete for a cup.

Thought the idea was losing for better draft picks? If Abby is so bad, then that should help solve that problem while still icing some hockey players with a compete level? You don't pay his salary, so why do you care how much he gets paid?

 

[Heaton]

Why is the term a problem when the general consensus here is Wings won't be making a hard push for the cup in 5 to 10 more years? Probably 7 years if EVERYTHING goes right and they get EXTREMELY lucky before they can compete for a cup.

Thought the idea was losing for better draft picks? If Abby is so bad, then that should help solve that problem while still icing some hockey players with a compete level? You don't pay his salary, so why do you care how much he gets paid?

Because a bad contract is a bad contract regardless of the state of the team.

 

[Frk It]

Why is the term a problem when the general consensus here is Wings won't be making a hard push for the cup in 5 to 10 more years? Probably 7 years if EVERYTHING goes right and they get EXTREMELY lucky before they can compete for a cup.

Thought the idea was losing for better draft picks? If Abby is so bad, then that should help solve that problem while still icing some hockey players with a compete level? You don't pay his salary, so why do you care how much he gets paid?

I'm kinda whatever about it for these reasons. But for me the concern is more of the judgement associated with that deal, and some of these deals. Like damn... you thought Abby was worth that? You thought Helm was worth that? You thought Dekeyser was worth that?

What happens when we are good again? We need more of a backbone and to tell some of these guys to kick rocks instead of overpaying. I imagine we'll have another GM when we are actually good again, so maybe it won't be an issue.

 

[Dotter]

Because a bad contract is a bad contract regardless of the state of the team.

4.2 million is a good price for a player of his ilk that can score 23 goals. This year being a down year while having no elite talent makes it look worse than it is. But if he bounces back next season, it'll be fine.

7 years to me isn't a problem unless it proves to be a problem. I think it's wayyy overblown... and god forbid we look around the league and find comparables.

I would rather have Abby at 4.2 + term than Toews at 10.5 + term. And I think you'll find many Hawks fans that would agree. They aren't happy with Toews' contract.

You might disagree because CHI are contenders right now.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't think Chicago is too broken up about that contract, considering they are still a contending team even with the contract and Toews is a better player at just about every facet of the game than Abdelkader.

I would take that contract over his, personally. But then again, it is a weird comparison because a guy like Abdelkader isn't going to be a driving force behind winning a cup, while Toews has proven that he can be.

 

[Winger98]

If they aren't happy with Toews' contract, they must loathe Hossa's.

 

[Dotter]

I don't think Chicago is too broken up about that contract, considering they are still a contending team even with the contract and Toews is a better player at just about every facet of the game than Abdelkader.

I would take that contract over his, personally. But then again, it is a weird comparison because a guy like Abdelkader isn't going to be a driving force behind winning a cup, while Toews has proven that he can be.

That's the point, Abby isn't paid to be the driving force. He's the scapegoat.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

I think we can all pretty much agree that no matter what this team needs a big shake up either at the deadline or in the off-season. Whether it's Blashill/Holland gone or some trades with roster players. Everyone seems a bit to comfortable with this except for people on this board. When I drive home from work I hardly hear anything on the radio about the Red Wings. Most of it still is football talk. How can this be? Is this not 'Hockeytown'?

Wake up Detroit. This roster isn't suddenly going to start winning games next year. We have been waiting for that to happen and have forseen this for a couple years now..

 

[jkutswings]

4.2 million is a good price for a player of his ilk that can score 23 goals. This year being a down year while having no elite talent makes it look worse than it is. But if he bounces back next season, it'll be fine.

They won't have any talent performing at an elite level next year, either. I honestly don't see Justin doing much more than 10-15 goals per year for the rest of his career.

7 years to me isn't a problem unless it proves to be a problem. I think it's wayyy overblown... and god forbid we look around the league and find comparables.

I would rather have Abby at 4.2 + term than Toews at 10.5 + term. And I think you'll find many Hawks fans that would agree. They aren't happy with Toews' contract.

You might disagree because CHI are contenders right now.

I personally wouldn't sign Gretzky in his prime to a deal longer than 5 years, because of the risk and liability for that duration. But at most, clear core players are the only ones you even think about granting a 7 year deal.

The problem with that specific contact on this specific team is that the player isn't doing anything significant to help them win, and his style of play ages like milk, and no other team will take on a 3rd line winger with that many years left on his deal.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I think we can all pretty much agree that no matter what this team needs a big shake up either at the deadline or in the off-season. Whether it's Blashill/Holland gone or some trades with roster players. Everyone seems a bit to comfortable with this except for people on this board. When I drive home from work I hardly hear anything on the radio about the Red Wings. Most of it still is football talk. How can this be? Is this not 'Hockeytown'?

Wake up Detroit. This roster isn't suddenly going to start winning games next year. We have been waiting for that to happen and have forseen this for a couple years now..

It's Hockeytown when things are going well. Just like baseball. If the team is terrible the interest fades. Particularly over a 162 game baseball season. The NFL is a different beast so even an awful franchise like the Lions will always draw interest.

This is why some of us are pushing to address needs in the one way that we can actually acquire elite talent. The Wings don't draft elite talent, haven't done so for 18 years. They don't trade for elite talent, it hasn't happened since the salary cap was implemented. They don't acquire elite talent via free agency, hasn't happened since the salary cap was implemented.

What does that leave you with? The draft, obviously, and the need to draft near the top where you are most likely to get elite talent that will develop quickly, will be signed to cheap contracts, and will be under team control for 8 or so years.

It's either that or continuing down the current path, which is obviously icing one of the worst teams in the league.

Hey, hey Hockeytown!

 

[ArGarBarGar]

That's the point, Abby isn't paid to be the driving force. He's the scapegoat.

Then why sign him for 7 seasons?

 

[jkutswings]

Then why sign him for 7 seasons?

Because this franchise has been beholden to the concept of, "better the devil you know, than the devil you don't" for too long.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

It's Hockeytown when things are going well. Just like baseball. If the team is terrible the interest fades. Particularly over a 162 game baseball season. The NFL is a different beast so even an awful franchise like the Lions will always draw interest.

This is why some of us are pushing to address needs in the one way that we can actually acquire elite talent. The Wings don't draft elite talent, haven't done so for 18 years. They don't trade for elite talent, it hasn't happened since the salary cap was implemented. They don't acquire elite talent via free agency, hasn't happened since the salary cap was implemented.

What does that leave you with? The draft, obviously, and the need to draft near the top where you are most likely to get elite talent that will develop quickly, will be signed to cheap contracts, and will be under team control for 8 or so years.

It's either that or continuing down the current path, which is obviously icing one of the worst teams in the league.

Hey, hey Hockeytown!

My point being, Montreal, Boston, St. Louis can all fire their coaches but ours isn't being questioned hardly at all by the media in a "sports city" and now with the owner passing.....nobody should be safe on this team or front office.

 

[jkutswings]

My point being, Montreal, Boston, St. Louis can all fire their coaches but ours isn't being questioned hardly at all by the media in a "sports city" and now with the owner passing.....nobody should be safe on this team or front office.

Unfortunately, if you're looking for accountability in sports, this is the wrong town. WAY too much loyalty and softball media for that.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

Unfortunately, if you're looking for accountability in sports, this is the wrong town. WAY too much loyalty and softball media for that.

Sad

 

[Brick Top]

I think we can all pretty much agree that no matter what this team needs a big shake up either at the deadline or in the off-season. Whether it's Blashill/Holland gone or some trades with roster players. Everyone seems a bit to comfortable with this except for people on this board. When I drive home from work I hardly hear anything on the radio about the Red Wings. Most of it still is football talk. How can this be? Is this not 'Hockeytown'?

Wake up Detroit. This roster isn't suddenly going to start winning games next year. We have been waiting for that to happen and have forseen this for a couple years now..

I'll take both for $300, Alex