Therrien’s Tinkerings

[JLP]

Offense looked better vs Ottawa, Galchenyuk of course but also the guys fighting for position and finding the trailer with the pass, more movement.

Can be argued however that Therrien's best 'moves' this year were the Eller and Allen injuries -- forcing Therrien to change.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Offense looked better vs Ottawa, Galchenyuk of course but also the guys fighting for position and finding the trailer with the pass, more movement.

Can be argued however that Therrien's best 'moves' this year were the Eller and Allen injuries -- forcing Therrien to change.

Two major issues with MT. The first is roster management. The decisions he's made with the roster have been indefensible. Murray, Cube, DD, Allen, Sekac being benched, Eller's misuse etc... Blatantly obviously bad moves.

At the very least (for the time being anyway) that seems to have been fixed. For the first time since he's taken over the lines actually make sense. That's half the problem (probably more than half the problem) fixed. Assuming that he actually stays with this and doesn't go back to the nonsense we've seen this team will be better just by virtue of those moves.

The other problem is the leash that's on our mobile defense. I don't think this will be as big an issue now that we have our best forwards out there. But we'll see. Still wish we could see Subban do his thing but baby steps at this point I guess.

This is a good team. The crap we've heard about MT not having a roster to work with is apologist nonsense. If he just sticks with lines similar to this going forward I think we'll see a massive improvement.

As for the Allen move, let's hope we never see him again. The sending up and down of Beaulieu has to stop.

 

[Vern]

96-53-15
.638
#firetherrien!

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Two major issues with MT. The first is roster management. The decisions he's made with the roster have been indefensible. Murray, Cube, DD, Allen, Sekac being benched, Eller's misuse etc... Blatantly obviously bad moves.

At the very least (for the time being anyway) that seems to have been fixed. For the first time since he's taken over the lines actually make sense. That's half the problem (probably more than half the problem) fixed. Assuming that he actually stays with this and doesn't go back to the nonsense we've seen this team will be better just by virtue of those moves.

The other problem is the leash that's on our mobile defense. I don't think this will be as big an issue now that we have our best forwards out there. But we'll see. Still wish we could see Subban do his thing but baby steps at this point I guess.

This is a good team. The crap we've heard about MT not having a roster to work with is apologist nonsense. If he just sticks with lines similar to this going forward I think we'll see a massive improvement.

As for the Allen move, let's hope we never see him again. The sending up and down of Beaulieu has to stop.

I really think MT just wanted to wait till he felt Chucky was ready to make the move. I really really doubt that it just dawned on him and management to move DD to the wing. I've virtually no problem with the way he 'handled chucky. I think he gets full marks on that front.

His handling of PK on the other hand is a different story. I say find a way to utilize his talents more and centre the offense around him at times or convert him to forward. I think PK is looking better defensively this year (I thought he was better defensively under Martin imo) but it just seems like such a waste of offensive talent.

MT isn't perfect but he always seems to find a way to right the ship and steer us out of any elongated slumps (so far).

 

[Andy]

In terms of my numbers being off, they are not really off, maybe your looking at the wrong stat in term on 5 on 5 play, I'm not looking at goals for, but rather the goals for and against ratio, Mtl was 6th in 12, was 16th last year and is 7th so far this year.

I mean that gives you a better reflection on how the coaches system is working..

Also you seem to dismiss any credit to the coaches for the for the pk unit because it was good in 2012 before they got there even tho I would say that very few guys are still on the team, Gorges, Gill, Moen all had big parts on the pk and are all gone, but anyhow, the year before MT took over the Habs PP was ranked 28th in the league...

The Goals for and against Ratio at 5 on 5:

2011-2012: 0.95 (18th in the nhl)
2013-2013: 0.99 (16th in the nhl)

What has improved? Again, the current roster is that much better and MT has them barely improving over the last place finish in that regard as well.

As for the PP, yeah, they finished 28th with a complete injured team and finished in last place. The habs last year finished 19th in the league in PP and are 21st this year. Bottom third is bad for such a high ranking club. There is no credit to be given here.

The Habs were 7th in 2010-2011 and 2nd in 2009-2010 with worse personnel than MT has today. No excuses here to be worse. At least the 28th place finished had the excuse that the Habs were an injured club, MT has 0 excuse.

 

[habs03]

The Goals for and against Ratio at 5 on 5:

2011-2012: 0.95 (18th in the nhl)
2013-2013: 0.99 (16th in the nhl)

What has improved? Again, the current roster is that much better and MT has them barely improving over the last place finish in that regard as well.

As for the PP, yeah, they finished 28th with a complete injured team and finished in last place. The habs last year finished 19th in the league in PP and are 21st this year. Bottom third is bad for such a high ranking club. There is no credit to be given here.

The Habs were 7th in 2010-2011 and 2nd in 2009-2010 with worse personnel than MT has today. No excuses here to be worse. At least the 28th place finished had the excuse that the Habs were an injured club, MT has 0 excuse.

In his first year Habs were 6th in the league in 5 on 5 ratio, are 7th this current season, I mean why did you only pick 2013-14 to as the bench mark to compare, wouldn't it be better to compare this current year, or maybe as a whole..

 

[Haburger]

96-53-15
.638
#firetherrien!

Yup therrien is a horrible coach.im surprised he doesnt read hf boards to gain more knowledge on bei ng a better nhl coach.cause there sure seems to be ALOT of people on here who have all the answers all the time.

 

[Ezpz]

Yup therrien is a horrible coach.im surprised he doesnt read hf boards to gain more knowledge on bei ng a better nhl coach.cause there sure seems to be ALOT of people on here who have all the answers all the time.

Considering all the lineup changes he's recently made have been things people have been posting on here for a year I think you're underselling hf Habs posters.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Yup therrien is a horrible coach.im surprised he doesnt read hf boards to gain more knowledge on bei ng a better nhl coach.cause there sure seems to be ALOT of people on here who have all the answers all the time.

Those who refuse to question seek no answers

 

[Andy]

In his first year Habs were 6th in the league in 5 on 5 ratio, are 7th this current season, I mean why did you only pick 2013-14 to as the bench mark to compare, wouldn't it be better to compare this current year, or maybe as a whole..

Because 2012 was never in question. Like I said on the on the other page, the system reflected on the numbers and even MTs biggest detractors acknowledge so. That being said, it was a shortened season, so the sample size isn't tht big. The following season tho, the Habs didn't play well despite their record and it showed on the ice and in the numbers as well

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

96-53-15
.638
#firetherrien!

Right, 100 pts = good coach no matter what.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Considering all the lineup changes he's recently made have been things people have been posting on here for a year I think you're underselling hf Habs posters.

How can these lineup changes have happened one year ago ?

You think Galchenyuk was ready to be #1 center last season ?

You think things would have went well with Plekanec in his current role without Malhotra ?

If posters here were clamoring for these changes a year ago, they were clueless.

We couldn't even have started the season this way because there is a veteran order in the room that needs to be respected. Any coach who throws all his veterans under the bus without giving them a chance is looking to have his players quit on him and his GM fire his ass for not using the players he signed to pro contracts.

All these posters think they know better. And I'm not claiming MT is perfect, and it's ok to question things and disagree with the coach, but everyone who is not closely connected to the team should always have a little doubt in their mind about their own opinions. As fans, we just have such a small portion of all available facts.. there's no way we can be convinced of how things should be. I guess what I'm saying is people aren't humble enough in their opinion. I can't stand people who say they know better than the coach who's there. No you don't.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I really think MT just wanted to wait till he felt Chucky was ready to make the move. I really really doubt that it just dawned on him and management to move DD to the wing. I've virtually no problem with the way he 'handled chucky. I think he gets full marks on that front.

He was never even tried there. Max+DD was written in stone. And even if you are correct here, DD was NEVER the right choice. Eller and Plek were both better options. No matter what the DD + Max combo was misguided. Max was going to produce no matter what but it would've made a whole lot more sense to give him guys who can actually score and have puck possession.

His handling of PK on the other hand is a different story. I say find a way to utilize his talents more and centre the offense around him at times or convert him to forward. I think PK is looking better defensively this year (I thought he was better defensively under Martin imo) but it just seems like such a waste of offensive talent.

MT isn't perfect but he always seems to find a way to right the ship and steer us out of any elongated slumps (so far).

You're crediting the wrong guy.

That being said - at least we've got the right lines now. You could qwibble about certain things but they make a whole lot more sense than they did. As I've said in the past I don't expect him to get fired so the best case scenario is he smartens up and at least he's done so with the lines. Our play WILL improve now just by virtue of this.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How can these lineup changes have happened one year ago ?

You think Galchenyuk was ready to be #1 center last season ?

You think things would have went well with Plekanec in his current role without Malhotra ?

If posters here were clamoring for these changes a year ago, they were clueless.

We couldn't even have started the season this way because there is a veteran order in the room that needs to be respected. Any coach who throws all his veterans under the bus without giving them a chance is looking to have his players quit on him and his GM fire his ass for not using the players he signed to pro contracts.

All these posters think they know better. And I'm not claiming MT is perfect, and it's ok to question things and disagree with the coach, but everyone who is not closely connected to the team should always have a little doubt in their mind about their own opinions. As fans, we just have such a small portion of all available facts.. there's no way we can be convinced of how things should be. I guess what I'm saying is people aren't humble enough in their opinion. I can't stand people who say they know better than the coach who's there. No you don't.

Yes they do.

Just because a guy is in a coaching role or a GM role it doesn't mean the average person can't spot mistakes. It was that way with Houle, Gauthier and it's that way with MT.

You don't have to be an NHL coach to see that he made tons of obviously bad decisions. There's nothing arrogant about it. Nobody is claiming that being a coach is easy or that anyone could do it or that posters themselves could do it - but that doesn't mean we can't see obviously stupid mistakes made by the coach. Your position of not questioning coaches is ridiculous.

What's arrogant is dismissing stats that go against your arguments because it doesn't fit your Devil's Advocate position. If you don't like people questioning the coach then you've come to the wrong place.

 

[DAChampion]

Lafleur's Guy,

Have yo ever disagreed with any of Stephen Harper's policies? That woukd make you arrogant if you have.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lafleur's Guy,

Have yo ever disagreed with any of Stephen Harper's policies? That woukd make you arrogant if you have.

I disagree with his haircut. Does that count?

 

[habs03]

Because 2012 was never in question. Like I said on the on the other page, the system reflected on the numbers and even MTs biggest detractors acknowledge so. That being said, it was a shortened season, so the sample size isn't tht big. The following season tho, the Habs didn't play well despite their record and it showed on the ice and in the numbers as well

Reason 2012 was brought up was because someone pointed out that we score less goals now 5 on 5 compared to then, but left our the part of allowing a lot less as well.

 

[habs03]

Two major issues with MT. The first is roster management. The decisions he's made with the roster have been indefensible. Murray, Cube, DD, Allen, Sekac being benched, Eller's misuse etc... Blatantly obviously bad moves.

At the very least (for the time being anyway) that seems to have been fixed. For the first time since he's taken over the lines actually make sense. That's half the problem (probably more than half the problem) fixed. Assuming that he actually stays with this and doesn't go back to the nonsense we've seen this team will be better just by virtue of those moves.

The other problem is the leash that's on our mobile defense. I don't think this will be as big an issue now that we have our best forwards out there. But we'll see. Still wish we could see Subban do his thing but baby steps at this point I guess.

This is a good team. The crap we've heard about MT not having a roster to work with is apologist nonsense. If he just sticks with lines similar to this going forward I think we'll see a massive improvement.

As for the Allen move, let's hope we never see him again. The sending up and down of Beaulieu has to stop.

How much is MT to blame for the roster management and how much blames goes to MB.

I mean you gotta think they share similar thoughts on the lineup, when Moen was traded, Stars GM said that the deal was 3 weeks in the works. That whole time Moen was playing over Bournival, was it MB asking to have Moen keep playing to show the league he can still be effect... I mean why would Bournival get benched for Moen when just a few months ago in the playoffs, Therrien sat Moen and played Bournival over him for most of the playoffs...

Heck even Beaulieu and Tinordi, why would MB acquire Allen and Gonchar if he wanted the young guys to play.

 

[Habs_Apostle]

The Great Change of System Debate

The Anti-Therrien Hypothesis

The first 20 games or so last year we were still using the system that worked for us the previous year and we were doing fine. Then, at about game 20, Therrien inexplicably changed the system and team play went to hell. So Therrien is the root cause of our terrible year last year.

Is there empirical support for a system change at game 20?

Logic of The Analysis

OK, let’s take game 20 as where the change in system occurred. IF there was a change in system here AND IF that change negatively affected team dynamics, we should expect a precipitous drop-off in possession numbers from the period before the change to the period after the change.

So here’s what I propose. We look at 5-on-5 Corsi For % (the most widely accepted metric of possession) for the month preceding game 20 and compare it to 5-on-5 Corsi For % for the month after game 20. If there is a considerable drop-off, this would support the contention that there was indeed a change in the system and that this may have caused it. If there is little to no change, however, this would refute the idea that there was a change in the system.

The Analysis

Our 20th game last season was against Columbus on Friday, Nov 15th. This game won’t be included in the analysis.

Possession Numbers for the Month Before

OK, so let take a look at possession numbers going back exactly one month, so until Oct 15th.

We played 14 games and held an average 5-on-5 Corsi For % of 45.8. Also, during this time we had 18 goals for and 21 goals against for a goal differential of -3. And, if interested, our save % was 94%.

Possession Numbers for the Month After

OK, so let take a look at possession numbers going forward exactly one month, so until Dec15th.

We played 15 games and held an average 5-on-5 Corsi For % of 45.7. Also, during this time we had 22 goals for and 25 goals against for a goal differential of -3. And, if interested, our save % was 92.8%.

The Conclusion

Since the 5-on-5 possession numbers are nearly identical for the month before and the month after where the so-called system change occurred, there is NO empirical support for the idea that any such system change actually took place. Or, if it did, that it in any way, shape, or form affected quality of team play.

 

[Haburger]

How can these lineup changes have happened one year ago ?

You think Galchenyuk was ready to be #1 center last season ?

You think things would have went well with Plekanec in his current role without Malhotra ?

If posters here were clamoring for these changes a year ago, they were clueless.

We couldn't even have started the season this way because there is a veteran order in the room that needs to be respected. Any coach who throws all his veterans under the bus without giving them a chance is looking to have his players quit on him and his GM fire his ass for not using the players he signed to pro contracts.

All these posters think they know better. And I'm not claiming MT is perfect, and it's ok to question things and disagree with the coach, but everyone who is not closely connected to the team should always have a little doubt in their mind about their own opinions. As fans, we just have such a small portion of all available facts.. there's no way we can be convinced of how things should be. I guess what I'm saying is people aren't humble enough in their opinion. I can't stand people who say they know better than the coach who's there. No you don't.

Most people on hf boards, and any internet forum for that matter,live in a fantasy world.they are pretenders that like to express their views and most often its harmless.but when people think they know more than an actual nhl coach they need to be slammed.yea.yea therrien has his flaws but we re doin pretty good.

 

[Habs_Apostle]

You do realize many of the pro-Therrien posters cite our record as evidence Therrien is a good coach, yes?

It shouldn't be ignored, but, I agree, it shouldn't be the only stat cited. I'd say it's a pretty important one, though.

The numbers have already been posted ad nauseam. If the system wasn't changed, then our roster has gone through a two year regression. Both scenarios are a fault of the coaching staff.

OR it could reflect growing pains. This team was utter crap before Therrien took over. There will be ups and downs. Look at Roy. Last year he had an amazing season and this year he can't win for his life. These things take time. It was very unrealistic to expect the team we saw in the shortened season to be the real deal. Given their play the previous season, it should have been expected there would be some regression. BUT looking at numbers this year, we are trending upwards.

 

[DAChampion]

In terms of record, this is the best Habs toster in twenty years and it's quite healthy as well. No team will be crippled from losing Eller for five games.

In all there have been very few injuries through ~170 seasons of Therrien, particularly compared to the Charbonneau-Martin era during which Habsistan was an intensive care unit. Not sure if he deserves credit, either for somehow improving the conditioning of the team or employing a less risky system.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Right, 100 pts = good coach no matter what.

100 pts is a successful season for any team.

Achieving 3 back to back to back seasons of 100 pts is clearly success (let's count the lockout shortened season as 100 pts since we were winning at that pace).

So at least, MT is not preventing the team from having successful seasons.

All of our young players have progressed and established themselves with the exception of Beaulieu/Tinordi, but Beaulieu is slowly but surely asserting his place on the team, and I have no doubt Tinordi will in time. Dmen just take longer to develop in general.

Most of you may not like Therrien, his methods, his spoken French/English, his smug face, system, usage of players, etc. But whatever grievances you have against him, legit or not, isn't preventing the team from achieving success or young players from improving. That's an incontrovertible fact.

Success is not based on shots, PP%, or whatever fancy stat is the talk of the hour amongst bloggers. It's based on good ol' fashioned points and standing position. You will say that it's all Price but that's not true either. If it were, the NY rangers and Nashville predators would have also gotten three consecutive 100 pts seasons as well.

There are problems, nothing is ever perfect in life.. but overall it's been pretty good. MT might not be the best but he's been more than adequate and one of our better coaches of the last 10-15 years. Koivu says the same thing.

 

[Habs100]

Right now, I just want to see Andrighetto and Beaulieu--and maybe Hudon and Tinordi--get long looks. I do get annoyed with Therrien blindly going with the veterans. But he's definitely doing a lot right.

I especially think it's important to see what Andrighetto and Hudon can do NOW, because we're 22nd in the league in goals for per game.

And as for Beaulieu, if he's ready, we can use his mobility and speed on our otherwise slow back end.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

100 pts is a successful season for any team.

Sure.

Achieving 3 back to back to back seasons of 100 pts is clearly success (let's count the lockout shortened season as 100 pts since we were winning at that pace).

Are you counting this season and 2013 as 100 point seasons?

So at least, MT is not preventing the team from having successful seasons.

The team collapsed at the end of 2013 and we don't know where the hell we're going to be this year.

But for the sake of argument, our record has been good. Nobody has disputed this.

All of our young players have progressed and established themselves with the exception of Beaulieu/Tinordi, but Beaulieu is slowly but surely asserting his place on the team, and I have no doubt Tinordi will in time. Dmen just take longer to develop in general.

Most of you may not like Therrien, his methods, his spoken French/English, his smug face, system, usage of players, etc. But whatever grievances you have against him, legit or not, isn't preventing the team from achieving success or young players from improving. That's an incontrovertible fact.

Young players are going to improve dude. Eller is improving just by virtue of being older. Has he improved because of Therrien though or in spite of him?

Success is not based on shots, PP%, or whatever fancy stat is the talk of the hour amongst bloggers.

Shots and PP% are not fancy stats. They are basic numbers that tell you how a team is playing. They are not irrelevant nor should they be sluffed off when evaluating a coach. Your persistent attempt to have us ignore these numbers doesn't have any reasoning behind it. There's absolutely no reason to ignore the underlying numbers that show us how this team is doing.

It's based on good ol' fashioned points and standing position. You will say that it's all Price but that's not true either. If it were, the NY rangers and Nashville predators would have also gotten three consecutive 100 pts seasons as well.

How would you know? You've told us to ignore the underlying numbers so how can we know anything other than the standings? Don't forget that Rinne has been hurt the past two seasons man.

Also, I love how we've suddenly had three 100 point seasons...

There are problems, nothing is ever perfect in life.. but overall it's been pretty good. MT might not be the best but he's been more than adequate and one of our better coaches of the last 10-15 years. Koivu says the same thing.

You're not making sense here. You're telling us to ignore the underlying numbers, ignore the goaltending and just accept the record. Then you ask us to extrapolate 100 pt seasons for only us and then pick Nashville to compare ourselves to when they've had a hurt goalie.

No way anyone should do this when evaluating a coach. Your argument has no logic to it at all. If you want to evaluate how a coach is doing you look at the roster he's had to work with, what he's done with it and how the team has played in front of it's goalie.

You are bending over backwards to have us ignore straightforward facts when evaluating this coach and it makes zero sense to do this.

All this crap about him not having a team to work with... it's laughable. At least now MT (or MB) has come to the decision that it's finally time to ice a roster that makes sense. As I told you in the past if he starts to change, I'm not going to come after him. Well, we've finally seen him start to make moves that make sense. I'm willing to bet that we're going to see better play in front of Price and folks around here will see how much talent this team really has.

All that's left is to let PK and Beaulieu carry the puck more and this team will be in good shape. As long as we stop seeing the nonsense we've seen in the past I think we'll play better and I think you'll see many of us stop talking about him so much.

I still don't think he's a good coach but at least we're seeing some changes that should've come long ago.

As for me being negative, I've told you from before this season began I think we're the best in the East and we're the team that I think will come out of the East for the cup. It's hard to do and there are tough teams to beat but I genuinely think with Max, Price, Subban, Galchenyuk and company we can get to the finals. But MT has to stop with stupid **** like putting inferior players in the wrong roles. At the very least we're starting to see that now and that's going to go a long way.