Therrien’s Tinkerings

[Habs_Apostle]

Lafleur's Guy and The Great Statistical Lie

The argument you, Lafleurs Guy, have repeatedly made is that MT is a bad coach because he has bad statistics. I’ve argued bad statistics don’t necessarily equate to a bad coach; there are so many other factors to consider. Up until now I haven’t looked in-depth at the team’s statistics and so just took your word for it that they were putrid. But I decided I’d really like to now how the team has fared stats-wise under Therrien over the past two and a third (or so) seasons.

The task I set for myself, then, was to select a broad range of statistics that reflect overall team play and then use criteria that you yourself have forwarded (that the team under Therrien has repeatedly fallen in the bottom 3rd on important team stats) to assess his coaching prowess.

OK, so what stats did I choose for this analysis? Here they are…

One widely accepted measure of 5-on-5 play, which presumably serves as a valid measure of a team’s puck possession, is Corsi. I think it would be informative to also break down Corsi For % into Corsi For and Corsi Against, as the latter will give us some insight into how we fare relative to other teams at directing pucks towards the opponents’ net (Corsi For) versus having pucks directed towards our net (Corsi Against). So we’ll take a look at Corsi For per 60 min of ice time (all shots for), Corsi Against per 60 min of ice time (all shot against), and then Corsi For % (ratio of the latter as a proxy for puck possession).

Beyond mere puck possession, we’ll look at success in putting the puck in the net and keeping it out of the net: Goals For per 60 min of ice time and Goals Against for 60 minutes of ice time. Also, to look at the efficiency with which we are scoring and keeping the puck out of the net, let’s include the team’s Shooting % and Save %.

Beyond 5-on-5 play, we’ll also look at special teams, so the PP% and PK%.

Finally, because I don’t think it should be completely discounted (it’s arguably the most important statistic of all), let’s include Total Points.

Now, I think these stats give a pretty good assessment of overall team play. For each of these stats, of course, we can bicker about how much direct influence the coach has. This is an argument that will likely go on for 18 pages and end in stalemate, however. As many Anti-Therriens have told me, though, Therrien is the coach and he’s ultimately responsible for all aspects of the team play. Fine, for better or for worse he’s responsible for overall team play as captured by the stats above. Well, let’s see how he fares…

Rules of the Game

You’ve stated several times MT is terrible because he is consistently in the bottom 3rd on all major statistics (for example, your quote from earlier in this thread, “Your eyes have told you we're playing well. Meanwhile the stats have us 28th in shots for and 20th in shots against - bottom third in all things not goaltending.” So let’s use YOUR rules. This is actually a nice way of comparing him to his peers. So we’ll say if most of these stats are bottom third (21-30), this equals a bad coach. If most stats are middle third (11-20), this equals a mediocre coach, and if most stats are upper third (21-30), this equals a good coach.

OK, and for this, let’s just let the numbers speak. So minimal dialogue…

Therrien’s First Season

Corsi For 60: 58% (6th overall)
Corsi Against 60: 51.7% (8th overall)
Corsi %: 52.9 (7th overall)

Goals For 60: 2.44 (5th overall)
Goals Against 60: 2.11 (13th overall)

Shooting %: 8.89 (6th overall)
SV%: 92.05 (17th overall)

PP: 20.7% (5th overall)
PK: 85.1% (4th overall)

Points: 63 (4th overall)

Result: 0 in bottom 3rd, 2 in middle 3rd, and 8 in top 3rd.

Conclusion: With none in the bottom third and all score in the upper 2/3, we’re forced to call Therrien an good coach.

Therrien’s Second Season

Corsi For 60: 52.9 (18th overall)
Corsi Against 60: 60.4 (27th overall)
Corsi %: 46.7 (26th overall)

Goals For 60: 2.04 (25th overall)
Goals Against 60: 2.12 (11th overall)

Shooting %: 7.44 (21st overall)
SV%: 93.04 (6th overall)

PP: 17.2% (19th overall)
PK: 85.1% (4th overall)


Points: 100 (10th overall)

Result: 4 in bottom 3rd, 5 in middle 3rd, and 2 in top 3rd.

Conclusion: With more stats in the lower 2/3, we’re forced to call Therrien a bad to mediocre coach.

Therrien’s Third Season

Corsi For 60: 56.3 (10th overall)
Corsi Against 60: 56.2 (21st overall)
Corsi %: 50.1 (20th overall)

Goals For 60: 2.45 (10th overall)
Goals Against 60: 2.05 (11th overall)

Shooting %: 8.66 (5th overall)
SV%: 92.87 (9th overall)

PP: 15.6% (21st overall)
PK: 86.1% (7th overall)

Points: 42 (tied 6th overall)

Result: 2 in the bottom 3rd, 2 in the middle 3rd, and 6 in the top 3rd.

Conclusion: With most stats in the upper 2/3, we’re forced to call Therrien a good coach.

Overall Conclusion Based on Stats Alone

BASED ON STATS ALONE, then, the team under MT has had one good season, one bad to mediocre season, and a good season so far this year. Using team statistics as a proxy for coaching prowess (whereby coaches are ranked on important team statistics in relation to their peers), then, the fairest conclusion is that he falls somewhere between mediocre and good as a coach.

Now, you’ve been repeatedly claiming he’s consistently fallen in the bottom 3rd of the league for major team statistics (again, your quote from earlier in this thread, “Your eyes have told you we're playing well. Meanwhile the stats have us 28th in shots for and 20th in shots against - bottom third in all things not goaltending.”) These statements are demonstrably and patently false. No offense, but you’re really stretching the truth or, worse, outright lying to everyone. So you should refrain from making such statements in future.

And you should also refrain from saying the only thing the Pro-Therriens are citing is Da Record. The ten stats I’ve reviewed above, which provide a pretty comprehensive overview of team health, show the Habs under Therrien, in relation to other teams, have faired pretty well.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Yeah, letting go of all those players for nothing was the smart way to go. What was I thinking in arguing that we should get something back instead...

You were arguing to tank. Lets not pretend after the fact.

 

[Brainiac]

In terms of record, this is the best Habs toster in twenty years and it's quite healthy as well.

 

[Kriss E]

How can these lineup changes have happened one year ago ?

You think Galchenyuk was ready to be #1 center last season ?

You think things would have went well with Plekanec in his current role without Malhotra ?

If posters here were clamoring for these changes a year ago, they were clueless.

We couldn't even have started the season this way because there is a veteran order in the room that needs to be respected. Any coach who throws all his veterans under the bus without giving them a chance is looking to have his players quit on him and his GM fire his ass for not using the players he signed to pro contracts.

All these posters think they know better. And I'm not claiming MT is perfect, and it's ok to question things and disagree with the coach, but everyone who is not closely connected to the team should always have a little doubt in their mind about their own opinions. As fans, we just have such a small portion of all available facts.. there's no way we can be convinced of how things should be. I guess what I'm saying is people aren't humble enough in their opinion. I can't stand people who say they know better than the coach who's there. No you don't.

Galchenyuk should have been moved at center last year. He didn't have to be used right away on the top line. We should have been grooming him at center for the simple reason that he's a natural center. If you didn't want to move him to center, then the EGG line should have remained together.

There's a lot of things people have questioned and they were right in doing it.

 

[habsfanatics*]

How much is MT to blame for the roster management and how much blames goes to MB.

I mean you gotta think they share similar thoughts on the lineup, when Moen was traded, Stars GM said that the deal was 3 weeks in the works. That whole time Moen was playing over Bournival, was it MB asking to have Moen keep playing to show the league he can still be effect... I mean why would Bournival get benched for Moen when just a few months ago in the playoffs, Therrien sat Moen and played Bournival over him for most of the playoffs...

Heck even Beaulieu and Tinordi, why would MB acquire Allen and Gonchar if he wanted the young guys to play.

Goodluck getting a proper response here. Therrien is all on his own here. Everything roster wise that is questionable falls on him, everything that is good falls on MB.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lafleur's Guy and The Great Statistical Lie

The argument you, Lafleurs Guy, have repeatedly made is that MT is a bad coach because he has bad statistics. I’ve argued bad statistics don’t necessarily equate to a bad coach; there are so many other factors to consider. Up until now I haven’t looked in-depth at the team’s statistics and so just took your word for it that they were putrid. But I decided I’d really like to now how the team has fared stats-wise under Therrien over the past two and a third (or so) seasons.

The task I set for myself, then, was to select a broad range of statistics that reflect overall team play and then use criteria that you yourself have forwarded (that the team under Therrien has repeatedly fallen in the bottom 3rd on important team stats) to assess his coaching prowess.

OK, so what stats did I choose for this analysis? Here they are…

One widely accepted measure of 5-on-5 play, which presumably serves as a valid measure of a team’s puck possession, is Corsi. I think it would be informative to also break down Corsi For % into Corsi For and Corsi Against, as the latter will give us some insight into how we fare relative to other teams at directing pucks towards the opponents’ net (Corsi For) versus having pucks directed towards our net (Corsi Against). So we’ll take a look at Corsi For per 60 min of ice time (all shots for), Corsi Against per 60 min of ice time (all shot against), and then Corsi For % (ratio of the latter as a proxy for puck possession).

Beyond mere puck possession, we’ll look at success in putting the puck in the net and keeping it out of the net: Goals For per 60 min of ice time and Goals Against for 60 minutes of ice time. Also, to look at the efficiency with which we are scoring and keeping the puck out of the net, let’s include the team’s Shooting % and Save %.

Beyond 5-on-5 play, we’ll also look at special teams, so the PP% and PK%.

Finally, because I don’t think it should be completely discounted (it’s arguably the most important statistic of all), let’s include Total Points.

Now, I think these stats give a pretty good assessment of overall team play. For each of these stats, of course, we can bicker about how much direct influence the coach has. This is an argument that will likely go on for 18 pages and end in stalemate, however. As many Anti-Therriens have told me, though, Therrien is the coach and he’s ultimately responsible for all aspects of the team play. Fine, for better or for worse he’s responsible for overall team play as captured by the stats above. Well, let’s see how he fares…

Rules of the Game

You’ve stated several times MT is terrible because he is consistently in the bottom 3rd on all major statistics (for example, your quote from earlier in this thread, “Your eyes have told you we're playing well. Meanwhile the stats have us 28th in shots for and 20th in shots against - bottom third in all things not goaltending.†So let’s use YOUR rules. This is actually a nice way of comparing him to his peers. So we’ll say if most of these stats are bottom third (21-30), this equals a bad coach. If most stats are middle third (11-20), this equals a mediocre coach, and if most stats are upper third (21-30), this equals a good coach.

OK, and for this, let’s just let the numbers speak. So minimal dialogue…

Therrien’s First Season

Corsi For 60: 58% (6th overall)
Corsi Against 60: 51.7% (8th overall)
Corsi %: 52.9 (7th overall)

Goals For 60: 2.44 (5th overall)
Goals Against 60: 2.11 (13th overall)

Shooting %: 8.89 (6th overall)
SV%: 92.05 (17th overall)

PP: 20.7% (5th overall)
PK: 85.1% (4th overall)

Points: 63 (4th overall)

Result: 0 in bottom 3rd, 2 in middle 3rd, and 8 in top 3rd.

Conclusion: With none in the bottom third and all score in the upper 2/3, we’re forced to call Therrien an good coach.

Therrien’s Second Season

Corsi For 60: 52.9 (18th overall)
Corsi Against 60: 60.4 (27th overall)
Corsi %: 46.7 (26th overall)

Goals For 60: 2.04 (25th overall)
Goals Against 60: 2.12 (11th overall)

Shooting %: 7.44 (21st overall)
SV%: 93.04 (6th overall)

PP: 17.2% (19th overall)
PK: 85.1% (4th overall)


Points: 100 (10th overall)

Result: 4 in bottom 3rd, 5 in middle 3rd, and 2 in top 3rd.

Conclusion: With more stats in the lower 2/3, we’re forced to call Therrien a bad to mediocre coach.

Therrien’s Third Season

Corsi For 60: 56.3 (10th overall)
Corsi Against 60: 56.2 (21st overall)
Corsi %: 50.1 (20th overall)

Goals For 60: 2.45 (10th overall)
Goals Against 60: 2.05 (11th overall)

Shooting %: 8.66 (5th overall)
SV%: 92.87 (9th overall)

PP: 15.6% (21st overall)
PK: 86.1% (7th overall)

Points: 42 (tied 6th overall)

Result: 2 in the bottom 3rd, 2 in the middle 3rd, and 6 in the top 3rd.

Conclusion: With most stats in the upper 2/3, we’re forced to call Therrien a good coach.

Overall Conclusion Based on Stats Alone

BASED ON STATS ALONE, then, the team under MT has had one good season, one bad to mediocre season, and a good season so far this year. Using team statistics as a proxy for coaching prowess (whereby coaches are ranked on important team statistics in relation to their peers), then, the fairest conclusion is that he falls somewhere between mediocre and good as a coach.

Now, you’ve been repeatedly claiming he’s consistently fallen in the bottom 3rd of the league for major team statistics (again, your quote from earlier in this thread, “Your eyes have told you we're playing well. Meanwhile the stats have us 28th in shots for and 20th in shots against - bottom third in all things not goaltending.â€) These statements are demonstrably and patently false. No offense, but you’re really stretching the truth or, worse, outright lying to everyone. So you should refrain from making such statements in future.

And you should also refrain from saying the only thing the Pro-Therriens are citing is Da Record. The ten stats I’ve reviewed above, which provide a pretty comprehensive overview of team health, show the Habs under Therrien, in relation to other teams, have faired pretty well.

MT was good in 2013, nobody has disputed this. Some dumb moves but at least the team performed. Last year this team went right off the rails.

This season's numbers were mostly bad as well. The team's numbers have improved since Max and Galchenyuk have been paired together and I don't see that changing. In their very first game their CORSI was something like 97 percent and I expect it to improve going forward now that we've got proper lines.

As for us being bottom third, yes we have been. Goals for, Shots for, Shots against, Goals For and PP were all bottom third last year and have been bottom third for most of this year. The PK and goaltending have been good.

Our advanced stats were terrible last year and they were bad for most of this year. With Gallaccioretty in the first line though it's a different story. And as I said in my last post, if we stick with this setup I expect we'll see better numbers going forward. If MT pulls the same crap with unwarranted favouritism towards lesser players then it's a different story.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Sure.

Are you counting this season and 2013 as 100 point seasons?

I am counting the lockout shortened season as 100 pts yes, we were producing way above that. I said I did in my post.

This season we're producing at a 106 pts pace.

So in Therrien's entire tenure here we've been producing as a 100 pts team.

The team collapsed at the end of 2013 and we don't know where the hell we're going to be this year.

Well, I do know where we're going. We're going for 100+ pts again this season. With Galchenyuk taking over #1 and being much better than DD was... hell we're going to do very well. That was the last important position where the habs didn't have an elite player. We all knew it was a question of time. I was hoping Galchenyuk would take over at the beginning of the season, and there were signs in preseason but it wasn't 100% clear. But I think the last few games have been very convincing. Personally I will readily admit I am surprised at how smooth the transition has been. It's very very exciting for us that Galchenyuk has been this good and has taken over this fast.

Young players are going to improve dude. Eller is improving just by virtue of being older. Has he improved because of Therrien though or in spite of him?

I agree. Committed players will improve no matter what. But when they were struggling earlier, you readily threw MT under the bus as responsible for that. Again, you place him in a no win situation.

Shots and PP% are not fancy stats. They are basic numbers that tell you how a team is playing. They are not irrelevant nor should they be sluffed off when evaluating a coach. Your persistent attempt to have us ignore these numbers doesn't have any reasoning behind it. There's absolutely no reason to ignore the underlying numbers that show us how this team is doing.

I didn't say they were. It was an enumeration. I said shots, PP% and fancy stats. I used those because they're what you use to decry Therrien.

How would you know? You've told us to ignore the underlying numbers so how can we know anything other than the standings? Don't forget that Rinne has been hurt the past two seasons man.

How would I know what ?

Rinne was hurt last season only, not the past 2 seasons.

Also, I love how we've suddenly had three 100 point seasons...

Well, the lockout shortened season was clearly a season where we were headed for 100 pts. But it's just semantics really. You can say we had two 100 pts season, and are producing at a 106 pts season pace again this year.

You're not making sense here. You're telling us to ignore the underlying numbers, ignore the goaltending and just accept the record. Then you ask us to extrapolate 100 pt seasons for only us and then pick Nashville to compare ourselves to when they've had a hurt goalie.

Only for last season. What about the rangers? Lundqvist is the best goalie in the league.

No way anyone should do this when evaluating a coach. Your argument has no logic to it at all. If you want to evaluate how a coach is doing you look at the roster he's had to work with, what he's done with it and how the team has played in front of it's goalie.

You are bending over backwards to have us ignore straightforward facts when evaluating this coach and it makes zero sense to do this.

You've got it backwards. I am not evaluating how Therrien is doing. I'm putting in question YOUR evaluation of how Therrien is doing.

I can't say how Therrien is doing. Hockey is a complex game, and hockey teams are complex environments. How can I stand here and attribute part of the glory to the coach ? I can't. In the same token I can't blame the coach for everything that's wrong with the team. We have only a parcel of the information required to have an informed opinion.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have a very humble view point of my knowledge and ability to judge Therrien.

All this crap about him not having a team to work with... it's laughable. At least now MT (or MB) has come to the decision that it's finally time to ice a roster that makes sense. As I told you in the past if he starts to change, I'm not going to come after him. Well, we've finally seen him start to make moves that make sense. I'm willing to bet that we're going to see better play in front of Price and folks around here will see how much talent this team really has.

Let me ask you one question :

Why don't you try to give him the benefit of the doubt ?

Instead of automatically assuming he's dumb.

Thing is... Your only real beef is last season. But last season, MB saddled MT with tons of crappy old vets like Murray, Parros, Briere. Briere clearly wasn't MT's choice. He never gave him a chance.

All that's left is to let PK and Beaulieu carry the puck more and this team will be in good shape. As long as we stop seeing the nonsense we've seen in the past I think we'll play better and I think you'll see many of us stop talking about him so much.

I still don't think he's a good coach but at least we're seeing some changes that should've come long ago.

Plekanec in a more offensive role couldn't have come sooner. We needed him to keep other top lines in check. Malhotra wasn't around for defensive zone faceoffs.

Galchenyuk was injured/not ready last year.

MB saddled MT with Murray, Parros, etc. He found zero solutions for Emelin's absence, and when Emelin did come back he was clearly rusty/out of sync after having missed the beginning of the season.

Last summer, MB made the right moves. And now MT has the right tools to get this team to another level. Changes might not happen at the pace you'd like them to, but I subscribe to the philosophy that rookies need to do more to displace veterans. And if you don't subscribe to that philosophy, then you should at least understand why any coach would think that way.

As for me being negative, I've told you from before this season began I think we're the best in the East and we're the team that I think will come out of the East for the cup. It's hard to do and there are tough teams to beat but I genuinely think with Max, Price, Subban, Galchenyuk and company we can get to the finals. But MT has to stop with stupid **** like putting inferior players in the wrong roles. At the very least we're starting to see that now and that's going to go a long way.

I was very positive as well at the beginning of the season. I didn't envision Galchenyuk taking over so fast and so effectively but that's the best news of all time.

I think MT is empowering the players to take over. Galchenyuk is looking at tapes to see opportunities where he could have set up Pacioretty but he didn't. That's all to AG's credit. But at the same time it's great that he feels motivated to do this. It means MT prepared him adequately. It means AG understands that this role comes with big responsibilities. If MT had been a bad influence on him... and had let him do whatever... as a young 18 year old millionaire in Montreal.. it might not have turned out this way. We've seen this in the past in Montreal with Higgins, Ribeiro, etc.

Let's face it, Therrien has flaws but he's not preventing this team from achieving success. And there are no super top notch coaches available that would do so much better. The only one I have in mind is Babcock and he's never been available.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You were arguing to tank. Lets not pretend after the fact.

We tanked anyway. I said we should rebuild and that's exactly what we should've done.

Instead we gave away the very players folks like you said we couldn't afford to trade for absolutely nothing. Souray, Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay etc.... and then we re-up with expensive overpaid players and give up McD in the process (with several of you guys arguing that it was a good move.) Totally stupid how we went about this and we could be much further ahead now. But here you are talking like it was the wrong move? We've got Max, Price and Galchenyuk three of our best four players with top five picks and a rebuild trade. Too bad we didn't do more of this!

Again, don't blame me for being right.

And wtf does this have to do with MT?

 

[habsfanatics*]

We tanked anyway. I said we should rebuild and that's exactly what we should've done.

Instead we gave away the very players folks like you said we couldn't afford to trade for absolutely nothing. Souray, Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay etc.... and then we re-up with expensive overpaid players and give up McD in the process (with several of you guys arguing that it was a good move.) Totally stupid how we went about this and we could be much further ahead now. But here you are talking like it was the wrong move? We've got Max, Price and Galchenyuk three of our best four players with top five picks and a rebuild trade. Too bad we didn't do more of this!

Again, don't blame me for being right.

And wtf does this have to do with MT?

Your position of not letting players go for nothing wasn't sort of brilliant insight, we all said this. I said we couldn't afford to trade these guys and we would be better off losing them for nothing? prove it, or are you just blowing more smoke and creating another strawman?

It took a real genius to see that trading for Gomez was a mistake haha, once again, you've tried to attribute a position to me that I never once had, ie another strawman, how many in one post? WE have two players from top 5 picks, not 3, and we already had one of them long before your cry for multiple tank seasons.

My point is, you've been wrong on multiple occasions when you spoke as if your opinion was fact, you take yourself a bit too seriously. The idea that Lafleurs Guy has the absolute truth for everything wrong with the habs is ridiculous considering your terrible track record.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I was very positive as well at the beginning of the season. I didn't envision Galchenyuk taking over so fast and so effectively but that's the best news of all time.

I think MT is empowering the players to take over. Galchenyuk is looking at tapes to see opportunities where he could have set up Pacioretty but he didn't. That's all to AG's credit. But at the same time it's great that he feels motivated to do this. It means MT prepared him adequately. It means AG understands that this role comes with big responsibilities. If MT had been a bad influence on him... and had let him do whatever... as a young 18 year old millionaire in Montreal.. it might not have turned out this way. We've seen this in the past in Montreal with Higgins, Ribeiro, etc.

It's really cool that you paint the Galchenyuk to centre move as a wonderful idea, but reality is, an injury forced MT to use Galchenyuk as a C...

let's not act as if MT just decided to put him there cause he knew the time was right or anything...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I am counting the lockout shortened season as 100 pts yes, we were producing way above that. I said I did in my post.

This season we're producing at a 106 pts pace.

So in Therrien's entire tenure here we've been producing as a 100 pts team.

Okay that's fair.

Well, I do know where we're going. We're going for 100+ pts again this season. With Galchenyuk taking over #1 and being much better than DD was... hell we're going to do very well. That was the last important position where the habs didn't have an elite player. We all knew it was a question of time. I was hoping Galchenyuk would take over at the beginning of the season, and there were signs in preseason but it wasn't 100% clear. But I think the last few games have been very convincing. Personally I will readily admit I am surprised at how smooth the transition has been. It's very very exciting for us that Galchenyuk has been this good and has taken over this fast.

We've played like crap most of this season dude. The record hasn't reflected our play. And again, you can thank Price for this.

I think the play will improve now going forward though.

I agree. Committed players will improve no matter what. But when they were struggling earlier, you readily threw MT under the bus as responsible for that. Again, you place him in a no win situation.

And for good reason. He set them up to fail. Playing DD over Eller made no sense. Playing Murray over Beaulieu (esp starting in the playoffs) made no sense. Do we credit him for Subban who he had zero training camp time with before his Norris? I don't think so. Can we blame him for holding him back now? I think we can.

I didn't say they were. It was an enumeration. I said shots, PP% and fancy stats. I used those because they're what you use to decry Therrien.

Its not fancy stats, it's across the board.

How would I know what ?

Rinne was hurt last season only, not the past 2 seasons.

But we aren't allowed to look at the underlying numbers according to you. Do we factor in that they have a worse roster? None of this is taken into account at all and it's why you're analysis makes no sense.

Well, the lockout shortened season was clearly a season where we were headed for 100 pts. But it's just semantics really. You can say we had two 100 pts season, and are producing at a 106 pts season pace again this year.

That's fine. But if you can't explain why because you've asked us to ignore all the underlying facts.

Only for last season. What about the rangers? Lundqvist is the best goalie in the league.

Why did they kick our ass in the playoffs when Price went down?

Again, I'm not sure what your point is here. You don't want us to look at anything other than the standings and a goalie...

You've got it backwards. I am not evaluating how Therrien is doing. I'm putting in question YOUR evaluation of how Therrien is doing.

Well then be specific in your questions. 'Cause what you're doing here doesn't make any sense at all.

The rest of us can see where he's gone wrong and have numbers to back it up.

I can't say how Therrien is doing. Hockey is a complex game, and hockey teams are complex environments. How can I stand here and attribute part of the glory to the coach ? I can't. In the same token I can't blame the coach for everything that's wrong with the team. We have only a parcel of the information required to have an informed opinion.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have a very humble view point of my knowledge and ability to judge Therrien.

NOBODY HAS BLAMED THE COACH FOR EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH THIS TEAM. THAT IS A STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.

WE HAVE ARGUED THAT HE'S NOT A GOOD COACH AND THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS FOR SAYING THIS. YOU MIGHT BE TOO HUMBLE TO SAY THIS BUT OTHERS AREN'T.

Let me ask you one question :

Why don't you try to give him the benefit of the doubt ?

Instead of automatically assuming he's dumb.

Thing is... Your only real beef is last season. But last season, MB saddled MT with tons of crappy old vets like Murray, Parros, Briere. Briere clearly wasn't MT's choice. He never gave him a chance.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Did so for a long time. Didn't agree with a lot of his decisions but he was at least getting results and I said he did well at the end of 2013. Last year he consistently and stubbornly continued to make the same mistakes and then went on to make the team worse. The evidence of him being a bad coach was overwhelming and I'm not going to say it wasn't.

Plekanec in a more offensive role couldn't have come sooner. We needed him to keep other top lines in check. Malhotra wasn't around for defensive zone faceoffs.

Galchenyuk was injured/not ready last year.

MB saddled MT with Murray, Parros, etc. He found zero solutions for Emelin's absence, and when Emelin did come back he was clearly rusty/out of sync after having missed the beginning of the season.

You are making excuses. There was no reason to make the moves he did last year (and continued to make this season.)

Last summer, MB made the right moves. And now MT has the right tools to get this team to another level. Changes might not happen at the pace you'd like them to, but I subscribe to the philosophy that rookies need to do more to displace veterans. And if you don't subscribe to that philosophy, then you should at least understand why any coach would think that way.

BS. No way DD should've been in the 1st line position no matter how you try to excuse it. No way Allen should've been in the lineup. No way Murray should've been ahead of Beaulieu in the playoffs or Sekac shoudl've sat for 7 games or Eller playing with scrubs.... these are just flat out bad moves. And again, if Price doesn't play well we're out of the playoffs this year just like we would've been out last year.

I was very positive as well at the beginning of the season. I didn't envision Galchenyuk taking over so fast and so effectively but that's the best news of all time.

I think MT is empowering the players to take over. Galchenyuk is looking at tapes to see opportunities where he could have set up Pacioretty but he didn't. That's all to AG's credit. But at the same time it's great that he feels motivated to do this. It means MT prepared him adequately. It means AG understands that this role comes with big responsibilities. If MT had been a bad influence on him... and had let him do whatever... as a young 18 year old millionaire in Montreal.. it might not have turned out this way. We've seen this in the past in Montreal with Higgins, Ribeiro, etc.

Let's face it, Therrien has flaws but he's not preventing this team from achieving success. And there are no super top notch coaches available that would do so much better. The only one I have in mind is Babcock and he's never been available.

Meh, at this point I'm going to wait and see if he at least sticks with this lineup. If he does, I won't criticize him as much. If he goes back to his old ways I'll rip him.

Like I told you a long time ago, best that we can do is he pulls his head out of his ass. At least the lineup seems to be correct finally so I think we'll improve going forward. If he puts DD back in the number one spot or does something stupid though, he's going to get ripped. And deservedly so. Right now we finally have the 1st line we should and it's playing like a first line should. So I'm excited to see what they can do going forward.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Like I told you a long time ago, best that we can do is he pulls his head out of his ass. At least the lineup seems to be correct finally so I think we'll improve going forward. If he puts DD back in the number one spot or does something stupid though, he's going to get ripped. And deservedly so. Right now we finally have the 1st line we should and it's playing like a first line should. So I'm excited to see what they can do going forward.

Galchenyuk will remain first line center because he showed that he had the ability to do that. It's that simple. Young players have to displace veterans with superior performances. AG did that. And it isn't just points because he was pointless in his first 2 games as #1 center. So MT saw something different this time and stuck with it.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Your position of not letting players go for nothing wasn't sort of brilliant insight, we all said this. I said we couldn't afford to trade these guys and we would be better off losing them for nothing? prove it, or are you just blowing more smoke and creating another strawman?

It took a real genius to see that trading for Gomez was a mistake haha, once again, you've tried to attribute a position to me that I never once had, ie another strawman, how many in one post? WE have two players from top 5 picks, not 3, and we already had one of them long before your cry for multiple tank seasons.

My point is, you've been wrong on multiple occasions when you spoke as if your opinion was fact, you take yourself a bit too seriously. The idea that Lafleurs Guy has the absolute truth for everything wrong with the habs is ridiculous considering your terrible track record.

I was on LG's side back then. I felt we needed to tank. I wanted us to acquire that elite player up front that can only be drafted very high. Galchenyuk is that guy. And it seems obvious he's the guy that's taking us to another level at the moment. An elite first line center is what we've been missing for the longest time and those are insanely hard to acquire.

We really struck gold with Galchenyuk's injury in his draft season. But so did he. He's lucky to be a Montreal Canadiens. Go habs go !

 

[habsfanatics*]

I was on LG's side back then. I felt we needed to tank. I wanted us to acquire that elite player up front that can only be drafted very high. Galchenyuk is that guy. And it seems obvious he's the guy that's taking us to another level at the moment. An elite first line center is what we've been missing for the longest time and those are insanely hard to acquire.

We really struck gold with Galchenyuk's injury in his draft season. But so did he. He's lucky to be a Montreal Canadiens. Go habs go !

Everyone knows drafting higher increases the probability of getting better talent, LG wasn't just advocating doing this once, he was advocating becoming the Edmonton Oilers.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Everyone knows drafting higher increases the probability of getting better talent, LG wasn't just advocating doing this once, he was advocating becoming the Edmonton Oilers.

Nope. I argued that we should rebuild, not tank. And that's exactly what we should've more of.

Instead we let the very guys who folks said were essential walk for nothing. Made no sense to do this and when you look at the top players on our roster now it only reinforces that I was right.

Again though, no idea how this relates to MT or this thread.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Galchenyuk will remain first line center because he showed that he had the ability to do that. It's that simple. Young players have to displace veterans with superior performances. AG did that. And it isn't just points because he was pointless in his first 2 games as #1 center. So MT saw something different this time and stuck with it.

He was only given that chance a few games ago and that's silly. And again no reason to have DD over either Pleks or Eller.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Everyone knows drafting higher increases the probability of getting better talent, LG wasn't just advocating doing this once, he was advocating becoming the Edmonton Oilers.

Really?

Most of The key skaters on the Hawks and Kings are also their own draft picks. Edmonton are the exception in terms of wasting high pick after high pick.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

He was only given that chance a few games ago and that's silly. And again no reason to have DD over either Pleks or Eller.

We have a philosophical difference of opinion on this point. DD had different role than Plek and Eller. Plek and Eller had defensive duties because they were the only centers who could realistically do the job. It is not as simple as #1-2-3 centers. Malhotra changed the dynamics at center.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We have a philosophical difference of opinion on this point. DD had different role than Plek and Eller. Plek and Eller had defensive duties because they were the only centers who could realistically do the job. It is not as simple as #1-2-3 centers. Malhotra changed the dynamics at center.

This season is a work in progress. We've got the right forwards in the right roles for now and I'll wait and see what happens going forward. What he did with DD is indefensible as far as I'm concerned and it showed up in the results. Nothing can be done about it now though and we've got the right lines so I'll wait and see.

 

[Kriss E]

Really?

Most of The key skaters on the Hawks and Kings are also their own draft picks. Edmonton are the exception in terms of wasting high pick after high pick.

I don't think the Oilers wasted their picks. RNH, Eberle, Hall, Yakupov, they're all good players. What they've done with Yak is pretty terrible, he should be much better.
You could argue that they should have drafted Murray instead of Yakupov, but really, Edmonton's picks weren't wasted.
It's actually the opposite. Their high picks is arguably the only thing they did right.
I don't understand how they didn't move one of these picks for a solid top Dman and their free agent signings have been terrible. I mean, Ference is their captain. The same guy that flicked the finger to fans at the bell center was identified was the leader of this team, that tells me a lot about how crappy the leadership must be in the room and how lost the people running the show there are.

 

[Kriss E]

We have a philosophical difference of opinion on this point. DD had different role than Plek and Eller. Plek and Eller had defensive duties because they were the only centers who could realistically do the job. It is not as simple as #1-2-3 centers. Malhotra changed the dynamics at center.

Even if you wanted to use these guys as the heavy duty D guys, there's really no excuse for Eller not getting PP time.

 

[habs03]

Even if you wanted to use these guys as the heavy duty D guys, there's really no excuse for Eller not getting PP time.

Eller has never really been productive on the pp.

Now under Martin and Cunneyworth he never got to play on the pp and went on mainly at the end of the pp so I didn't brought look at his number then, and same this year with MT.

But at the start of last year when he and the Gally's were the go to line, they were used as the 1st pp unit.

Eller managed 3 points in 85 mins of PP time, Bourque had more PP points in less minutes.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Eller has never really been productive on the pp.

Now under Martin and Cunneyworth he never got to play on the pp and went on mainly at the end of the pp so I didn't brought look at his number then, and same this year with MT.

But at the start of last year when he and the Gally's were the go to line, they were used as the 1st pp unit.

Eller managed 3 points in 85 mins of PP time, Bourque had more PP points in less minutes.

Actually DD has never been productive on the PP. Eller's never been given a chance. Eller is younger, bigger, better defensively and has produced better 5 on 5. No reason for him or Pleks not to be used. Ditto with Galchenyuk.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Really?

Most of The key skaters on the Hawks and Kings are also their own draft picks. Edmonton are the exception in terms of wasting high pick after high pick.

they are, but on the Hawks you have Keith as 2nd rounder, Seabrook a mid 1st rounder, Crawford 2nd round, Byfuglien 8th round, Bolland and Bickell 2nd round, Brower 7th round, Hjalmarsson 4th round, Kruger 5th round, Saad 2nd round, Shaw 5th round, Niemi undrafted, Hossa UFA, Oduya traded for, Leddy traded for, and over the years you had guys like Brunette, Richards, Sharp, Rozsival, etc who were signed as UFA or traded for...

over the years they had two top 5 picks in Kane and Toews (like us with Price/Galchenyuk), lots of their 2nd to 5th or 6th rounders were great picks...


and if you do the same exercise for the Kings, you'll have more or less the same results...


So yeah, most are their own picks, but dont kid yourself, they didnt with cup because of their multiple high picks... one or two top 5 picks, maybe 3, and that is all...

so yeah, in hindsigh the tanking idea was stupid, but it was stupid back then too with guys like Patches, Subban, Price being in their low 20's.

 

[Kriss E]

Eller has never really been productive on the pp.

Now under Martin and Cunneyworth he never got to play on the pp and went on mainly at the end of the pp so I didn't brought look at his number then, and same this year with MT.

But at the start of last year when he and the Gally's were the go to line, they were used as the 1st pp unit.

Eller managed 3 points in 85 mins of PP time, Bourque had more PP points in less minutes.

Eller got a tiny bit of PP at the early part last year, certainly not enough time to firmly say that he isn't a producer on the PP.
Over that stretch btw, we went 18/78 on the PP. That's about 24% efficiency. That's very good. So maybe the EGG line didn't produce themselves on the PP all that much but at least it was working.