The "win now" mentality needs to stop

[Ogrezilla]

this team can win a cup with some pretty reasonable moves. We shouldn't do anything crazy, but we should absolutely be in a win now mode.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Why should the win now mentality stop? If you're talking about trading prospects for the likes of Morrow and Murray, then yes, I agree. But if you're against moving a guy like Dumoulin--who I think is a very long shot for ever becoming an impact NHLer for this franchise--for a guy who can come in and fill a hole in our lineup, I disagree entirely.

Sid and Geno aren't gonna be around forever, and they're not gonna be this good forever. Add to that Fleury is having a career year, and Letang is as well. We need to take a shot if there's any hockey trades to be made. Ideally, I'd like to see trades that will benefit this team now as well as the future. That means no Jagr (as much as I would love to see him back, there's no place for him) and no Vermette. Try and grab a guy like Winnik to help secure the bottom six. Try and grab a guy like Methot to bolster the blueline. Those are two of my prime targets for the deadline. As for bigger moves, I'd love to see JR & Co. try and bring in another big fish for the top six. I've been saying Kunitz has to go for a long time, and it's only becoming more and more apparent as time goes on that the stink of Shero/Bylsma hockey isn't leaving him. Kill two birds with one stone by moving him: rip Sid's band-aid off quick and clean, and ideally package him with some other assets for a stud top six winger. I'd also like to move Sutter as well, pretty much at all costs. See if Colorado would be willing to do something around Kunitz + Sutter + pick/prospect for ROR. If you're gonna take a gamble on a guy like ROR, and I'm not sold that the gamble is of any significance when it comes to contract talks, move pieces you're willing to lose.

A few moves are needed, some bigger than others, but we're definitely in a win now mode. That's not even a question.

 

[IcedCapp]

Thread title is bad. This team should always be in "Win Now" mode. Your issue is, they should also be in "Win Next Year Mode" as well.

the reason they aren't is because Ray Shero made a lot of bad moves.

Now, the Pens have 3 choices:

1) Don't trade away or for any assets. Simply let the roster play out the season(s). You will have your first round pick, you will draft players that will help you in 2-3 years.

but Sidney Crosby is currently skating with Kunitz and Downie or Kunitz and Hornqvist and Malkin is skating with Spaling and Comeau or something.

And your bottom 6 is going to not only feature Craig Adams and Zach Sill, but also a few AHL players who probably aren't ready for full time NHL assignments.

2) Trade as few assets as possible to overcome Ray Shero's handiwork. That means getting a David Perron (long term asset (hopefully)), that means looking at a bottom 6 replacement.

3) Sell off. Admit that you need to restock the cupboard. Admit that you cannot get close enough to winning it all this year because of your current roster, your lack of assets, and the salary cap. Trade Sutter, trade Martin, trade Ehrhoff, trade Scuderi. Let youth take over on the back end, and collect as many futures as possible, and then restock the roster in the draft and with a few FA acquisitions (the top-6 seems fixed or close to it, so now all you need is a Comeau acquisition or two to really help the bottom-6).

You're punting this year, but you're putting your best foot forward for the next 5 or so (hopefully).


1 and 3 were never going to happen. I would have argued three til I was blue in the face, but no team would do it, especially not when this team started the year the way they did.

And regardless of what direction I wanted to take the team, I do the David Perron deal 7 days a week and thrice on Trade Deadline Day, so... No one can really fault JR for brining in a legit top line winger in his 20s for a 1st round pick.

 

[StaalForOne]

Thread title is bad. This team should always be in "Win Now" mode. Your issue is, they should also be in "Win Next Year Mode" as well.

the reason they aren't is because Ray Shero made a lot of bad moves.

Now, the Pens have 3 choices:

1) Don't trade away or for any assets. Simply let the roster play out the season(s). You will have your first round pick, you will draft players that will help you in 2-3 years.

but Sidney Crosby is currently skating with Kunitz and Downie or Kunitz and Hornqvist and Malkin is skating with Spaling and Comeau or something.

And your bottom 6 is going to not only feature Craig Adams and Zach Sill, but also a few AHL players who probably aren't ready for full time NHL assignments.

2) Trade as few assets as possible to overcome Ray Shero's handiwork. That means getting a David Perron (long term asset (hopefully)), that means looking at a bottom 6 replacement.

3) Sell off. Admit that you need to restock the cupboard. Admit that you cannot get close enough to winning it all this year because of your current roster, your lack of assets, and the salary cap. Trade Sutter, trade Martin, trade Ehrhoff, trade Scuderi. Let youth take over on the back end, and collect as many futures as possible, and then restock the roster in the draft and with a few FA acquisitions (the top-6 seems fixed or close to it, so now all you need is a Comeau acquisition or two to really help the bottom-6).

You're punting this year, but you're putting your best foot forward for the next 5 or so (hopefully).


1 and 3 were never going to happen. I would have argued three til I was blue in the face, but no team would do it, especially not when this team started the year the way they did.

And regardless of what direction I wanted to take the team, I do the David Perron deal 7 days a week and thrice on Trade Deadline Day, so... No one can really fault JR for brining in a legit top line winger in his 20s for a 1st round pick.

Yep, I would agree big time with number 3 as well, but it appears the Pens are looking to do the opposite, and buy D rather than sell. They did a good job with number 2, as others have said the Perron deal was a HR, and that first round pick is not wasted if Perron resigns.

The only thing that could go better is if they somehow work a deal which moves out redundant, or overpaid D (Martin, Scuderi, Erhoff), and brings in a young/youngish type of defense men the team currently lacks. Someone physical, RH shot, and big, but also able to skate and move the puck.

3C needs to be upgraded as well, if not this year then by the start of next season. if the team thinks Sundqvist can fill that role next season then move Sutter at the draft for a pick or two to help restock on prospects.

 

[joeyjake5]

If we had the traded the Despres and Bennett picks for rentals, would that have giving the pens another cup, Probably not. You have to be patient with draft picks. Look at 2 #2s Harrington and Dumulin. They may be in the NHL next year. Sure picks are a crap shoot, but with rentals you have nothing. What did Iggy, Morrow, Murray,, Stem and Goc bring, nothing more than a depleted prospect pool.

 

[lettuceAA]

If we had the traded the Despres and Bennett picks for rentals, would that have giving the pens another cup, Probably not. You have to be patient with draft picks. Look at 2 #2s Harrington and Dumulin. They may be in the NHL next year. Sure picks are a crap shoot, but with rentals you have nothing. What did Iggy, Morrow, Murray,, Stem and Goc bring, nothing more than a depleted prospect pool.

Hindsight is always 20/20. It's extremely rare for a team to have arguably the top 2 centers in the game. You need to take advantage of that every year and try to win.

 

[SEALBound]

It's the "we are family" mentality that is slowly killing the organization. We keep players we shouldn't. We signed players we shouldn't have. The organization was more focused on having the family/good times atmosphere rather than having a management team that is cold and rash.

Dupuis should have been offered $2mil, 2yrs with a ceiling of the 3rd line. Kunitz should have been offered $3mil, 2 yrs with a performance based position. Meaning, you perform you can hang with Sid, if not, say hello to the bottom 6. Adams should not have been extended...in any way shape or form. Scuderi, at the time was understandable, should not have gotten the money or term he did...but he was the prodigal son...returning to right the wrongs (and to me...there is only ONE player...that the Penguins and that player can do the "right the wrongs" with).

Hopefully JR helps nix the remnants of the old ways. Bye Adams, no job afterwards either. Trade Kunitz. If you're not happy, we don't want you here. Scuds...hard to say. Would love to trade him for the cap space but its unlikely. New coach that says "you will play where I want you to play". Would love Babcock in, MJ and RT as assistants.

Then go out and get the supporting cast we need instead of hanging on to family member leeches.

 

[gordie]

This team I seriously doubt can even win one playoff round this year. Not physical enough. Offense comes and goes and they can't stop anyone from scoring on them. PP is slipping. Crosby & Malkin aren't exactly setting the league on fire. This season looks like it is going to end abruptly in the first round, no matter who they play.

 

[cassius]

I'll just say this - I'm thrilled that we spent our 1st rounder early this year. Perron was the perfect acquisition for this team and should be a long-term asset, something we could only hope to get down the line in the bottom fourth of the first round.

Otherwise I'd tend to agree.

Just gotta watch there... remember the Hossa deal

Don't get me wrong. The deal feels great now (much like the Hossa deal did), but if Perron bolts to the highest bidder in UFA (ala Hossa)... then folks are going to feel a LOT differently about the deal

 

[StaalForOne]

Just gotta watch there... remember the Hossa deal

Don't get me wrong. The deal feels great now (much like the Hossa deal did), but if Perron bolts to the highest bidder in UFA (ala Hossa)... then folks are going to feel a LOT differently about the deal

That was a different situation. Hossa did not go to the highest bidder, he went to Detroit because he felt he had a better chance to win. IIRC he took either the same exact salary, or maybe .2/.4 mil more. It was not a money issue. Lets not forget that Hossa also jerked Shero around in the process, hinting that he wanted to stay. I think had he been more clear of his intentions the team may have pursued Malone more. All hindsight, and they one a cup anyway so its kind of irrelevant, but I just wanted to point that out.

I do agree that the effectiveness of the deal depends on whether he resigns or not. If he does resign the deal goes from good to great. Even the Hossa deal was still good, the prospects they gave up went no where, and the team went to the cup final. Not exactly a terrible outcome.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Perron also has a year left on his deal, he's not an impending UFA.

 

[cassius]

Perron also has a year left on his deal, he's not an impending UFA.

He's already on pace to get $5M/year minimum.. possibly $6M or more.

Let's hope he takes a hometown deal, but I could see a Ryan Malone situation happening with him where someone just throws insane $ at him.

I hope that doesn't happen. But I've been a Pens fan long enough to know that Sid/Geno have a way of inflating average player stats, which results in a lot of good players leaving PIT and getting paid well above their market value.

 

[joeyjake5]

This team I seriously doubt can even win one playoff round this year. Not physical enough. Offense comes and goes and they can't stop anyone from scoring on them. PP is slipping. Crosby & Malkin aren't exactly setting the league on fire. This season looks like it is going to end abruptly in the first round, no matter who they play.

Totally agree.
If JR makes a trade, hopefully he doesn't give away any futures or any of Sunquist, KK, Rust, Wilson, Dumo, Harry or DP unless it is for a substantial upgrade.

 

[joeyjake5]

Unless Sid and Geno are saving themselves for the playoffs, I would wonder if their decline has started now based on their recent play.

 

[Sam Spade]

Crosby, Malkin, MAF, Letang, their legacies are secure, they have their Cup. I kind of agree with the premise the OP suggests.

Go for it but not at the cost of developing your players, it is why I could not understand the signing of Ehrhoff. One year deal or not it was at the expense of one of the 'young' D prospects, who by the way aren't so young anymore.

Unless Sid and Geno are saving themselves for the playoffs, I would wonder if their decline has started now based on their recent play.

Crosby and Malkin still have 5 or 6 more top years ahead of them. What kills Malkin is he consistently misses 10 plus games EVERY year. Crosby having a 'down' year will probably still win the Ross.

 

[Sutter16]

Scouting will play a big part in whether the Pens win another Cup with this core. Sid, Geno, Perron, Hornqvist, Bennett, Kapanen is the top 6 long term. If the bottom 6 is filled with size and possession players then that can definitely win a Cup. With Maatta, Letang, DP and Despres as a top 4? Fix the bottom 6 with the right players, 2-4 years from now and this team can still deliver. Scouts need to find good young wingers early and late in upcoming drafts.

 

[Shwag33]

He's already on pace to get $5M/year minimum.. possibly $6M or more.

Let's hope he takes a hometown deal, but I could see a Ryan Malone situation happening with him where someone just throws insane $ at him.

I hope that doesn't happen. But I've been a Pens fan long enough to know that Sid/Geno have a way of inflating average player stats, which results in a lot of good players leaving PIT and getting paid well above their market value.

Obviously I dont know what's in perrons head... but i bet he re-signs this off season. He was in a ****** situation in Edmonton, called out the org (kinda). If the pens offer him anything near a fair deal he'll take it because he knows how much it sucks to be on the other side.

 

[Freeptop]

IMO you don't say you're in a win now mode and then go hire a rookie head coach. But it worked with Bylsma so of course lightning will strike twice! Let's face it, this ownership isn't as smart as it thinks it is.

Given that Laviolette was off the market while the Pens were still in the playoffs, and Trotz was hired before the Pens had a new GM, just which non-rookie head coach should they have hired? Tortorella? Keenan? Wilson? Yikes.

There really weren't a whole lot of good options available.

For the record:
Laviolette hired by Predators: May 6th.
Penguins last playoff game: May 13th
Shero fired: May 16th
Trotz hired by Capitals: May 26th
Rutherford hired: June 6th

 

[Bennett Brauer]

Given that Laviolette was off the market while the Pens were still in the playoffs, and Trotz was hired before the Pens had a new GM, just which non-rookie head coach should they have hired? Tortorella? Keenan? Wilson? Yikes.

There really weren't a whole lot of good options available.

For the record:
Laviolette hired by Predators: May 6th.
Penguins last playoff game: May 13th
Shero fired: May 16th
Trotz hired by Capitals: May 26th
Rutherford hired: June 6th

Johnston was one of the best options and arguably the best fit for this team also. It's not like we hired some nobody, he's coached and had success at all levels, he also has NHL experience, just not as a head coach. Mike Johnston is a very intelligent hockey guy, he puts so much time and effort into the sport.

After we lost Game 7 to the Rangers, I fully expected it to be Bylsma's last game behind the bench, I remember wanting Shero to hire Trotz because he's solid and with his Nashville connection. Little did I know that Shero would be fired 3 days later. Trotz seemed like he was going to Washington anyways from what I heard, and I agree. I wouldn't want any of the veteran coaches you named, though I will admit I was intrigued by the idea of Mike Keenan

Johnston is a fine coach, people just don't like him because he doesn't do things their way. "OMG he plays Sill and Adams, fire him" There is only so much a coach can do before his players actually have to play the game, if the Pens don't score on the power play, it's not on Johnston or Tocchet, it's on the players. I've seen the Penguins play pretty good hockey this season, sure we had some bad games but EVERY TEAM HAS THEM, there is also no such thing as the perfect team, every team in the league has their whipping boys and their Sill's or Adams'. Just because the way this team is built doesn't meet certain people's unrealistically high standards, doesn't mean this team can't win the Cup.

 

[gordie]

Laviolette is like Therrien or Vigneault in that all have a limited shelf life wherever they are coaching. They might win for a short period of time and then they usually lose the players they are coaching at some point.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

For the past 5+ years, the Penguins organization and fan base has been preoccupied with winning the cup each year. While winning the cup is certainly the goal for any team, a "win now" mentality can severely hinder the future growth of the team. The Pens have the core we need to compete every year (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury) but we continue to beat ourselves by taking drastic measures to make the team a Stanley Cup contender. Instead, I say we start moving the team in a different direction. How so? Well first, we need to be realistic about things.

Where it stands, this isn't a cup winning team. Unfortunately, trying to force this group to go all for the cup hinders our development. For example, are Scuds and Bortz NHL defenseman? Without a doubt, but we have players in the system (DP and Harrington) who have the ability to be better for our team in the FUTURE. Sure, giving them NHL playing time will probably hinder our cup chances, but they will gain experience that will allow them to become better players for our team. No amount of AHL play will prepare them for the NHL, and it's time we let them make mistakes and learn at the NHL level. Try to think about this team 5-10 years from now. What are our plans for then? There's no doubt in my mind that at age 35, Crosby will still be a top player in the league and have the ability to lead his team to the cup.

We keep living year-to-year, and to me, that is an inefficient way to run an organization. The Redwings have stayed competitive for around 20 years. Why? They don't try to throw all their eggs in one basket and try win every year. They continue to build from within. They draft well, they build well, and they win well. Until we allow ourselves to worry about the future of this franchise as well, we will continue to lose and will keep getting worse and worse.

Just my insight anyways, let me know what you guys think.

Excellent post. I wholeheartedly agree. And I was also expecting most of the posts to be against your main premise, because ever since we made the playoffs the first time in 2006-07 with Malkin and Staal as rookies, this board has wanted the team to 'go for it' every year since. And it's largely been that way.

We have never really taken a 'step back' and assessed what we have and what we're missing since that first playoff year of this era. And in my opinion it has hurt.

But teams listen to their fan bases, and they don't want to suddenly start suffering at the gate. And judging from this board, Pens fans would be irate if we suddenly became 'sellers'. And this hurts the team, imo, but it's an understandable position.

This is such BS. We have actually drafted extremely well with the number of picks that we had. Compared to Chicago though we have only had 31 picks in the last 5 years while they had 46. That is a HUGE difference of 3 more per year or 48% more opportunity. They can have 15 total busts before even getting to our draft number.

This is a HUGE factor, and a great post. Kudos for pointing this out. It's all about strength in numbers. The more picks you have, the more chances you have NOT to fail with an individual pick.

One thing to factor in is that JR won't be here long and I think he'll do everything he can to go for the Cup now while he is here. I don't think he is really worried about the future since he won't be a part of it.

I fear this as well. No, JR hasn't really mortgaged our future but he hasn't really done anything long term either. Yes Perron was a nice acquisition for us, but a follow-up deal moving out a Kunitz or something like him for a high '15 pick is kinda needed right now to balance things out.

Also, we haven't maximized Paul Martin and will lose him for nothing. OR, we'll re-sign someone we don't need at all. Ditto Ehrhoff. And this was a huge problem with the previous regime, who also stupidly gave up a third rounder for Goc. Leaving JR with only one top-3 pick in the best draft class in a dozen years. And that's a problem.

JR should have more emphasis right now on adding picks in '15, than in rental defensemen. So yes, I agree with whoever said we'll probably know more about JR after this deadline...but it's pretty hard to believe he's NOT going to move more futures for rentals when every single rumor out there involving the Pens has us adding rentals for futures.

Prove us wrong, JR.

Hindsight is always 20/20. It's extremely rare for a team to have arguably the top 2 centers in the game. You need to take advantage of that every year and try to win.

At what cost? The top 2 centers are locked in, long term. As soon as Shero was able to lock both of these guys up, THAT was the perfect time to start a bit of an organizational refresh. That was the time to evaluate everybody else and weed out the bad contracts, the marginal talents and the replaceables. Instead, we went 'all-in'. And we've been paying the price ever since.

At some point, someone needs to stop the bleeding. The bleeding of picks, prospects and future assets in general. I get a sense that JR isn't interested in this...he's interested in chasing another Cup before retirement.

He's already on pace to get $5M/year minimum.. possibly $6M or more.

Let's hope he takes a hometown deal, but I could see a Ryan Malone situation happening with him where someone just throws insane $ at him.

I hope that doesn't happen. But I've been a Pens fan long enough to know that Sid/Geno have a way of inflating average player stats, which results in a lot of good players leaving PIT and getting paid well above their market value.

And this is the problem, really. We never seem to have enough players in the lineup on minimal salary. Shero was picking up the scrappiest of the scrapheap to fit under the cap, but the players were largely talentless bums. Both the previous regime and the current one haven't done nearly enough to insert our young talent on ELC's, and so that turns into a problem when we need to re-sign someone we don't want to lose like David Perron.

So yeah, the Perron trade was very good for us. But when coupled with the stupid Goc for a third deal, it's not as good as it should be. Then consider how great this draft is supposed to be, and you start to wonder if we couldn't get Perron another way. Oh sure, hindsight and all that, but I think everybody agrees JR started dealing way too late...especially not dealing Martin and not doing a badly-needed hockey trade when he got Perron for our pick.

 

[Human]

IMO you don't say you're in a win now mode and then go hire a rookie head coach. But it worked with Bylsma so of course lightning will strike twice! Let's face it, this ownership isn't as smart as it thinks it is.

good post. I agree with this.

 

[Penguinator]

While the new head coach may be a rookie in the NHL he certainly deserves the benefice of the doubt because of his past C.V. and better adaptability than Bylsma.

 

[Gurglesons]

I wouldn't want any of the veteran coaches you named, though I will admit I was intrigued by the idea of Mike Keenan

Keenan played Malkin on the PK whenever he was coaching him. He also wouldn't stand for Crosby doing his patented back behind his ass play. Kunitz would be benched, etc.

Many people thought Darryl Sutter was a moron before he took control of an LA Kings roster.

I like Johnston, but I really wish we would've signed a veteran coach like Keenan to a one year deal just because he's been there and knows how to whip players into shape. He wouldn't have been a long term solution, but is JR either?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Keenan played Malkin on the PK whenever he was coaching him. He also wouldn't stand for Crosby doing his patented back behind his ass play. Kunitz would be benched, etc.

Many people thought Darryl Sutter was a moron before he took control of an LA Kings roster.

I like Johnston, but I really wish we would've signed a veteran coach like Keenan to a one year deal just because he's been there and knows how to whip players into shape. He wouldn't have been a long term solution, but is JR either?

I've always been intrigued by Keenan for this team, especially now that he's had a successful stint in Europe in the KHL.

His M.O. would help this team if he's still that coach...in particular his theory of playing your best players a lot, and in all game situations. I think a Keenan-coached team would also never stand for a Johnny Oduya cross-checking Sidney Crosby repeatedly without serious retribution.

Personally, I'd love to see it if we're going to continue to be thinking mostly of the here and now...until JR retires.