The "win now" mentality needs to stop

[Whambino]

For the past 5+ years, the Penguins organization and fan base has been preoccupied with winning the cup each year. While winning the cup is certainly the goal for any team, a "win now" mentality can severely hinder the future growth of the team. The Pens have the core we need to compete every year (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury) but we continue to beat ourselves by taking drastic measures to make the team a Stanley Cup contender. Instead, I say we start moving the team in a different direction. How so? Well first, we need to be realistic about things.

Where it stands, this isn't a cup winning team. Unfortunately, trying to force this group to go all for the cup hinders our development. For example, are Scuds and Bortz NHL defenseman? Without a doubt, but we have players in the system (DP and Harrington) who have the ability to be better for our team in the FUTURE. Sure, giving them NHL playing time will probably hinder our cup chances, but they will gain experience that will allow them to become better players for our team. No amount of AHL play will prepare them for the NHL, and it's time we let them make mistakes and learn at the NHL level. Try to think about this team 5-10 years from now. What are our plans for then? There's no doubt in my mind that at age 35, Crosby will still be a top player in the league and have the ability to lead his team to the cup.

We keep living year-to-year, and to me, that is an inefficient way to run an organization. The Redwings have stayed competitive for around 20 years. Why? They don't try to throw all their eggs in one basket and try win every year. They continue to build from within. They draft well, they build well, and they win well. Until we allow ourselves to worry about the future of this franchise as well, we will continue to lose and will keep getting worse and worse.

Just my insight anyways, let me know what you guys think.

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[WayneSid9987]

It may have stopped with JR and company. We won't know til after Trade Deadline Day.

The future isn't terribly bleak here. Theres KK and Sundqvist coming in next year and still tons of D-prospects. Real good ones.

Still assets to land another young top end winger as well.

Also theres quite a big difference from 5 years from now and 10.
This team should be in good shape 5 years from now, if they load up on winger prospects thats literally all they need right now. 10 years from now, i'm not so sure about.

 

[Gurglesons]

For the past 5+ years, the Penguins organization and fan base has been preoccupied with winning the cup each year. While winning the cup is certainly the goal for any team, a "win now" mentality can severely hinder the future growth of the team. The Pens have the core we need to compete every year (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury) but we continue to beat ourselves by taking drastic measures to make the team a Stanley Cup contender. Instead, I say we start moving the team in a different direction. How so? Well first, we need to be realistic about things. Where it stands, this isn't a cup winning team. Unfortunately, trying to force this group to go all for the cup hinders our development. For example, are Scuds and Bortz NHL defenseman? Without a doubt, but we have players in the system (DP and Harrington) who have the ability to be better for our team in the FUTURE. Sure, giving them NHL playing time will probably hinder our cup chances, but they will gain experience that will allow them to become better players for our team. No amount of AHL play will prepare them for the NHL, and it's time we let them make mistakes and learn at the NHL level. Try to think about this team 5-10 years from now. What are our plans for then? There's no doubt in my mind that at age 35, Crosby will still be a top player in the league and have the ability to lead his team to the cup. We keep living year-to-year, and to me, that is an inefficient way to run an organization. The Redwings have stayed competitive for around 20 years. Why? They don't try to throw all their eggs in one basket and try win every year. They continue to build from within. They draft well, they build well, and they win well. Until we allow ourselves to worry about the future of this franchise as well, we will continue to lose and will keep getting worse and worse.
Just my insight anyways, let me know what you guys think.

You have a worthy argument. The simple fact is that our scouting staff sucks outside of defense.

If we want to take the Red Wings model we need to have the best scouting staff in the league and be willing to let players sit in the minors for at least three or four years which our fan base is obviously horrible at.

Not to mention the fact, Crosby and Malkin aren't getting any younger. JR has definitely done a good job with our top six.

 

[IcedCapp]

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[td_ice]

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Haha, exactly. I can't read that as is. I would suggest an edit with the aforementioned line breaks. Paragraphs are your friend.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

I'm all for the Perron type of deals. What's the chance of drafting a good top-6 that can fit Sid's game well and produce at this pace at 26 years old? Almost impossible.

I'm mad at our Morrow/Murray trades but I think I'm more mad about the fact that our organisation isn't able to cashout on their players (Niskanen, Orpik, Martin, maybe Erhroff etc..). That's where potential draft picks go for free.

 

[JTG]

Having a "win now" mentality doesn't necessary mean that you aren't developing for the future. We traded a 1st round pick for Perron. We hope to the hockey lords that who ever we draft in the 1st round this year turns out to be as good as him. He'll also be here for a long time, so that 1st rounder was turned into a legitimate, developed top 6'er who will be producing for us for years.

The deals that need to stop are the Morrow for Morrow deals, and really only do those types if we are one identifiable piece away from being complete.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

+1 to suggesting better formatting

Also, there's win now which I think given Sid and Geno's ages is the right thing to do. But, whether its win now or not a first for Perron is good, but Morrow for Morrow and 2 2nds for Dog Murray is not.

 

[SherogoesHAM]

You have a worthy argument. The simple fact is that our scouting staff sucks outside of defense.

If we want to take the Red Wings model we need to have the best scouting staff in the league and be willing to let players sit in the minors for at least three or four years which our fan base is obviously horrible at.

Not to mention the fact, Crosby and Malkin aren't getting any younger. JR has definitely done a good job with our top six.

This is such BS. We have actually drafted extremely well with the number of picks that we had. Compared to Chicago though we have only had 31 picks in the last 5 years while they had 46. That is a HUGE difference of 3 more per year or 48% more opportunity. They can have 15 total busts before even getting to our draft number.

 

[TNT87]

One thing to factor in is that JR won't be here long and I think he'll do everything he can to go for the Cup now while he is here. I don't think he is really worried about the future since he won't be a part of it.

 

[Ugene Magic]

There's no guarantees in the present and certainly not in the future.

I'm not willing to put all my hopes into the future that is long off. You only get windows and they can open and shut yearly.

Just so ya know, the Pens brass didn't expect to challenge for the cup as soon as they did in 2007/08.

You take what's given and you run with it. Detroit didn't always draft so well, they got a lot of mileage out of some guys, and added star power via trade like anyone else. That model died with the retirement of, Lidstrom. They are nowhere near what they once were. Even with their drafting.

 

[plaidchuck]

IMO you don't say you're in a win now mode and then go hire a rookie head coach. But it worked with Bylsma so of course lightning will strike twice! Let's face it, this ownership isn't as smart as it thinks it is.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Crosby and Malkin are getting older. The window to win with them is declining every year.

We shouldn't be doing an all-in every year like Shero did but it's lunacy to not think that our window is closing. We don't have the organizational depth of Chicago/LA to support an aging Crosby/Malkin. If this team is to win it all at this point, they need to put the team on their backs and that's just rare for players to do through 4 rounds in the playoffs.

 

[madinsomniac]

We are not as far off of being a frontrunner for the cup this season. this is malkin and Crosby's primes... first round picks are sort of worthless to us for the time being... honestly for the right players they should annually be dealt now.

there are a few points here... The first is we are in a win now era. Its nice to want to build from the draft, but in the NHL you really don't need to. Talent is readily available if you scout well, both late in a draft and with UFAs with NHL experience.

For the most part from drafting a player till he contributes to the team can often take 4 or 5 years. There are exceptions, but then again you can also find guys more talented than 1st rounders in the later rounds. Worrying about four or five years from now is almost moot when you have 2 superstars in their primes.

While we do need to get the young guys playing time in the NHL during the regular season, its really a good idea to have some vets ready in case they cannot handle the playoffs. We aren't going to rebuild this year, we are just retooling the team. If a trade that makes sense comes along, you make it. its just important that we simply don't overpay like shero was doing near the end there. a first rounder for Perron... great. trading potential like a Bennett or KK for a highly talented NHL ready winger right now, great...

I just think too many people think we are totally unable to win a cup this year, when its more realistic to say we are able, but not favorites to do so. the moves we need to make are maybe not minor, but not excessive either. We cant give up and go full rebuilding mode just because the team has struggled a bit this season... They already have played Pouliot a ton when its pretty noticeable that he needs some work on the D side, and Harrington was probably a year from a full time NHL spot here. The only one you might say is not getting the ice time he deserved was maybe Doumulin. Id like scuds moved too, but its not the worse thing in the world having him on the bottom pairing in the playoffs...

 

[Captain Hook]

I don't have a problem with having a win now approach. You can't just piss away years of Sid and Geno's prime. You have to give them as good a chance to win as you can every year. If that means sacrificing a little bit of your future, that's fine. It just can't be over the top short sighted and stupid like Morrow for Morrow.

 

[Bennett Brauer]

Instead of quoting every post, I agree that certain deals involving futures are good and some are not.

The 1st for Perron is good because Perron is still young with a year remaining.

Trading Morrow for Morrow was a bad trade (though we did get a 3rd which was used on Jake Guentzel so we'll see).

I disagree about the 2 second rounders for Murray being a bad trade, draft picks are the pieces that bring rental upgrades to a team. You're not certain of who will be available at your unknown pick. What you do know is there is a player with a certain price tag that you think your team needs to get you over the top. Besides, Shero corrected it in a way by trading Kennedy to the Sharks for an earlier 2nd round pick, then used that pick along with our late 3rd round pick to move up in the 2nd round to draft Tristan Jarry. Having the early 3rd from Dallas in the Morrow/Morrow deal allowed us to make that deal, remember that.

Every team in the league trades draft picks for rentals. Especially the Pens under Ray Shero. 2nd for Gill, 3rd for Guerin, 2nd for Leopold, a 3rd for SOMEONE'S UFA RIGHTS, a 1st + prospects for Iginla, two 2nds for Murray, a 3rd and a 5th for Goc, a 3rd for Stempniak, he's not the only GM that does that either. Keep in mind he kept the majority of his picks from 2009 to 2012.

I also call BS on scouting outside of defense sucks. Bennett, Kapanen, Sundqvist, Murray and Jarry are legit. Bennett is a solid young player in the NHL and the rest are really good prospects. We might have more that we don't know much about, Blueger, Guentzel, Rust, Archibald, Wilson, etc. most of them could pan out as well.

 

[Tender Rip]

Don't understand the timing of this thread.
I cannot see that JR has been doing anything so far that is not both conscious of building long term and giving chances to our youngsters. Whether Johnson plays them accordingly is something else, and in his first season here he has a mandate to do things how he feels.
The Perron trade was a home run.... and on general principle, of course we are "win now" considering Sid, Geno and Letang.

The important thing is to still think asset management, so as to avoid valuable yet somewhat redundant assets leaving as UFA's while spending futures assets on topping up the team, only to see those acquired leave after a few months in free agency. Maatta's injury ****ed JR on that score this season, and beyond that he has been navigating Shero's mess. And navigating it well so far.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

I have no issue at all dealing the 1st for Perron.

If we are drafting 22 or later every year, we could only hope for a player to develop in 3-4 years into what Perron is now. And the key word is "hope." We're still hoping Beauner develops into a solid player.

I'll make that trade everyday.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I have no issue at all dealing the 1st for Perron.

If we are drafting 22 or later every year, we could only hope for a player to develop in 3-4 years into what Perron is now. And the key word is "hope." We're still hoping Beauner develops into a solid player.

I'll make that trade everyday.

I agree I do this ever day
A top 6 winger that can play now instead of 4 years from now.

 

[LucSZ]

I feel like this argument is based on the premise that there will be a "perfect team" at some point in the future to activate the "win-now" mode. There will never be a perfect team. If you wait until Pouliot or Harrington matures, Sid and Geno may be declining, and you'll be lacking power up front. You take the team you have, improve what you can, within reason, and make that push for the Cup every year. That's the Pens "win now" mode I believe, and I'm all for that.

 

[Bennett Brauer]

I agree I do this ever day
A top 6 winger that can play now instead of 4 years from now.

A top 6 winger that can play now AND 4 years from now seems more like it with Perron as long as we can re-sign him (I think we can).

Perron is just a perfect fit.

 

[roquay]

As long as we aren't trading valuable futures for rentals. Perron type deals you do everyday.

Even if JR wanted to pull an all in move it would be very complicated this year because of the cap.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I'll just say this - I'm thrilled that we spent our 1st rounder early this year. Perron was the perfect acquisition for this team and should be a long-term asset, something we could only hope to get down the line in the bottom fourth of the first round.

Otherwise I'd tend to agree.

 

[Shwag33]

I'll just say this - I'm thrilled that we spent our 1st rounder early this year. Perron was the perfect acquisition for this team and should be a long-term asset, something we could only hope to get down the line in the bottom fourth of the first round.

Otherwise I'd tend to agree.

Yep. I think we should stand pat now with the team as is. Reading this forum people want trades just because.

If anything we need help on defense and people still want to trade young d-men for jagr.

 

[mikethelegacy]

When Crosby and Malkin are older and not capable of playing at their current level, we aren't going to be a locked-in-for-sure perennial contender anymore. We need to take advantage of now while doing as much for the future as possible. There has to be a balance, but we also need to do everything we can to win with the two best players in the world.