The Vincent Lecavalier Thread-Part III: Philly loves dumb contracts (22.5/5, NMC)

[The n00b King]

Taxes in Canada are based on residence, specifically on Dec 31. There are many people who live in one tax jurisdiction and work in another. The FP article, the fine print even states, "Each scenario assumes the taxpayer will be subject to social taxes in the home jurisdiction".

Especially when it comes to NHL players, who have enough money to travel as they need, have summers off (well, self-directed training) and spend a lot of time on the road.

A player could have his family and main house wherever he wants, have his mail delivered there, etc. This could be because it's a great situation for his family, or because it's in a low-tax jurisdiction. In the city where his team is, he could rent a small bachelor apt near the rink, or a room from a teammate, and travel back and forth as required.

This is quoted for truth.

revenue qc only cares about where ur residence was as of Dec 31 of that year. Vinny could have easily signed a one or two year contract and elected to remain a resident of Florida. Sure, he could have left his family there and commuted. It would have shown his desire to play for the Habs. To me it was clear that Vinny was always good for Montreal but Montreal was never good for him. Vinny clearly lacks character, always has. And this is huge for mb. Pretty sure he only made the offer to pay for lip service.

 

[Danko]

Viinny i hate you seriously. You've betrayed your own kind.

wow.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You're off on this one LG. Cole was 32 and got 4.5/4yrs. Gonchar was like 38 and got 10/2yrs. Kovalev ditto. Ray Whitney too.

Rafalski signed for 6/5yrs at the same age as Lecavalier is today.

Free market price man, and ours was 10mil less than Philly's.

Like I said, 4.5 for two years each I'd have had no problem. 9 for 3 would be fine if he wants term.

Cole was a dumb signing, Gonchar was a dumb signing, Kovalev was dumb...

Maybe MB is just smart enough to realize this.

Our cap still has 13mil of other team's rejects in Gionta and Gomez on the books.

The whole idea of free agency is to accent your team with something you cannot deliver through your own assets. A 6'4" 50-60pt centre for the next ~3years is certainly something that every team in the league would be interested in. So structure a 5 year deal and tell him to retire whenever he wants and be done with it.

Paul Gaustad got 13m over 4 years.
Handzus got 16 over 4.

Lecavalier's worth 4.25 over 5.

The idea of free agency is to improve your team. And how many times have we seen the opposite happen where teams get stuck with players they don't want and hurt themselves on the cap?

The amnesty buyouts in recent years have mitigated the damage but that won't be an option now.

I understand what you're saying LG. But the offer was way below market value. It's not what I would call a "serious" offer. If Bergevin seriously wanted Vinny, he would have offered more IMO. Also I mentioned in a follow up post that I was okay with offering 3 years, it's the 3 mil per that I think was low.

I will agree with you that I wouldn't have offered him the contract that Philly did, especially with the NMC involved.

If "market value" is what the dumbest team out there is willing to pay, I agree with you. There's always going to be an Ed Snyder willing to make stupid contracts. So from that perspective you're right.

I completely disagree about it not being a "serious offer" though. MB offered what he thought the guy was worth and it was right in line with what I suggested we should offer. I think MB was dead on right with this and I think in a few years people here will be thanking him for it. Certainly I could end up being wrong but that's how I feel right now. I think Vinny will have a good year, taper off next season and by year three he'll suck and the Flyers will be looking for a way to dump him (and God help us then because the same people asking for him now will be begging for him then.)

I realize that folks are starving for a French Canadian star but this guy's best days are behind him. We shouldn't want anything to do with him at the dollars (and ridiculous NMC) that he just got.

 

[dreamingofdrouin*]

L.A. Lariviere ‏@L_A_theRiver 12h

Lecavalier's agent : Habs were finalists, BUT "It was complicated with MTL. Marc and I tried different proposals to make it work." #NHL

2/2 "If we had more time to make a decision, it would have been easier. Not a matter of contract, but factors that concern Canadian teams"

what exactly do you suppose this means?

 

[Legion of Gloom]

If what's being reported is true. Although I'm pissed we didnt get him, if we offered 3 years at around the same salary, I'm very happy with Bergevin not succumbing to pressure to sign Lecavalier at any cost. Anything over 3 years was dangerous with his age and frequent injuries. So not mad at Bergevin at all.

Now about Lecavalier. He better stop wearing number 4 in honor of Beliveau, he doesn't honor it well. And with all the money he made with his buyout he easily could have accepted around 15 mil / 3years and made some more money on a next contract after that. I'm tired of these scared players (WE NEED MORE SUBBANS IN THIS WOLRD!!!). He wouldnt have had as much pressure as 4 years ago. We wouldnt have traded anyone for him, he wouldnt be making 7.8 on the cap, and we have a good young core surrounding him. Chicken-****. He should and will get booed.

Well he can not wear number 4 in Philly, it is retired.

 

[ECWHSWI]

L.A. Lariviere ‏@L_A_theRiver 12h

Lecavalier's agent : Habs were finalists, BUT "It was complicated with MTL. Marc and I tried different proposals to make it work." #NHL

2/2 "If we had more time to make a decision, it would have been easier. Not a matter of contract, but factors that concern Canadian teams"

what exactly do you suppose this means?

taxes probably.

 

[ClasslessGuy]

if we had more time? wth they had plenty of time

 

[Burke the Legend]

Lecavalier didn't handle this well.

Should have just manned up and said he didn't want to play in Montreal because of taxes/media or whatever the reason was. He has hundreds of thousands of admirers here, give them a straight answer on day 1, something they can live with. Don't string them along with mealy mouthed weasel statements, using them for contract leverage and building up expectations when he never intended to play here (clearly he has spent a lot of time thinking about this, it was not a last minute decision).

People in Quebec, especially French-Canadians who is a champion to are right to be mad at him. He jerked them around with ambiguous half truths when he knew his decision all along, and did it just to make more $$$ in his contract. It may be within his right, but is a dishonourable, low thing to do to people who really adore the guy. In the end it's all about him, he's no patriot, certainly no Jean Beliveau or Maurice Richard.

 

[Jee]

if we had more time? wth they had plenty of time

Seriously, they have all summer to negociate. He's full of ****.

 

[Lshap]

Viinny i hate you seriously. You've betrayed your own kind.

And there she is -- the ex-girlfriend who calls 12 times a day, parks outside your apartment wanting to analyze what went wrong, threatens to kill herself if you don't come back, hacks into your email to see who you're dating, sends daily texts saying how much she loves you and then leaves voice messages screeching about what a cold ******* you are.

There is a portion of our fan base in serious need of a restraining order...

 

[Habs 4 Life]

L.A. Lariviere ‏@L_A_theRiver 12h

Lecavalier's agent : Habs were finalists, BUT "It was complicated with MTL. Marc and I tried different proposals to make it work." #NHL

2/2 "If we had more time to make a decision, it would have been easier. Not a matter of contract, but factors that concern Canadian teams"

what exactly do you suppose this means?

In good old Quebecois, Vincent mange la marde!

 

[Coldplay]

wow.

A Flyers fan coming on over to add some constructive commentary. Sweet.

 

[Monctonscout]

Honestly I'm not losing sleep over it. Very weird signing for Phillie though. You'd think they'd try and use some of that money on defense or goaltending, but Holmgren goes to the beat of his own drum. It will be struggle to make the playoffs in that division.

For the Habs, sort of glad we're not tied to him for 5 years, he'll be worth it the first 2 but he already has high mileage and constantly missing games, not sure I want that on my cap at 36-37-38.

 

[Habsawce]

I'm a little confused as to why he would pick Philly tbh. It just doesn't make much sense to me, that team is a mess with an owner and GM who only care about bottom line.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

L.A. Lariviere ‏@L_A_theRiver 12h

Lecavalier's agent : Habs were finalists, BUT "It was complicated with MTL. Marc and I tried different proposals to make it work." #NHL

2/2 "If we had more time to make a decision, it would have been easier. Not a matter of contract, but factors that concern Canadian teams"

what exactly do you suppose this means?

taxes?

 

[dmanfish90]

And you guys wonder why no one signs here. Ive been lurking this board for quite some time now, and its astonishing that you guys are surprised. RDS had him in a Habs jersey on their website hours after he was bought out, you guys put him as your avatar, saying that if he didnt produce there would be tons of pressure, discussing school situations for his kids and what his wife and mom would like, drawing up possible line combos!!!! Seriously, STOP!!!!

He hadn't even signed here yet and he felt the pressure. Just relax, let him make a decision. Another example is this Cristian Thomas kid. No one has probably ever seen him play and you are already putting pressure on him...

I love the Habs, but I would never never EVER want to play here. Would hate to put up with all this on a dialy basis.....Actually, I would love to get you guys to hate me because I know how much it pisses you all off....

Guy's got a point.

 

[LesHabs66]

Not exactly brokenhearted over Vincent Lecavalier signing a bloated NMC deal with The Flyers. The same goes for Pascal Dupuis resigning with the Penquins. The habs avoided two 30+ year old guys that have injury issues and will not be in cap limbo for severe overpayment. They still need some FA help but not at these prices for guys looking for a retirement package.

At least the signing in Philly will at last put the annual "sign Vinny at all costs" pleas to rest for 5 more seasons.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

There's no such thing as 'loyalty' anymore, especially from players who tasted big cash. Lecavalier is no exception, he was loyal to his team for a while, then asked for the moon, something they gave him, he didn't live up to it then goes after another smaller moon. As long as he gets paid, he doesn't care, and Holmgren loves to give big contracts to players on decline, I just wonder if Snyder will get tired of paying for an underachieving team because of Holmgren...

As for Vinny, I get the impression he didn't want the pressure of his own 'kind', well, have fun in Philly.

 

[ClasslessGuy]

I'm pretty sure the guy never wanted to come to MTL. BS on the MTL was a finalist statement etc etc.

Lecavalier don't want to play here and he don't own anybody anything.

 

[PunkinDrublic*]

I'm a little confused as to why he would pick Philly tbh. It just doesn't make much sense to me, that team is a mess with an owner and GM who only care about bottom line.

US air offers direct flights to Tampa at lower rates ?

 

[NeverGoingToWin]

Many of you act like Montreal has the right to all French born players. The fact that you are all trashing a player you do not even know personally is why no one wants to play for your team.

 

[Burke the Legend]

Many of you act like Montreal has the right to all French born players. The fact that you are all trashing a player you do not even know personally is why no one wants to play for your team.

Know him personally? Are you that righteous? He is a public figure and it is fair game to judge him by his public actions.

Lecavalier plays up his connection to Montreal and invokes the spirit of French-Canadian hockey by using Beliveau's number and playing him in the Rocket film and has many admirers here. People will get mad at him when he jerks them around about playing here but is just using them for contract negotiating leverage.

If you are that ignorant of how this has gone down and the historical/cultural aspects, please gtfo and go back to your own forum.

 

[29dryden29]

And there she is -- the ex-girlfriend who calls 12 times a day, parks outside your apartment wanting to analyze what went wrong, threatens to kill herself if you don't come back, hacks into your email to see who you're dating, sends daily texts saying how much she loves you and then leaves voice messages screeching about what a cold ******* you are.

There is a portion of our fan base in serious need of a restraining order...

Very well said and at the end of the day he is just another NHL player not sure why some of our fans take guys not signing here so personally

 

[Agnostic]

Simple reason Vinny Lecav didn't sign in MTL is money. With MTL's much higher tax rate (48.22%) and NJ's (Flyers are technically HQ'ed and practice in New Jersey, so they are taxed there) much lower tax rate (43.5%), the difference adds up in a hurry. If we just look at guaranteed dollars (assuming he stays in MTL) it's almost a $9m difference after taxes. If we just look at the first three years of the Flyers deal versus the first three years of the Habs offer, it's still a $5.3m difference.

Where you pay taxes is based on where your "tax home" is, and where you work. In short what you pay amounts to a blending of tax rates of the jurisdictions you play. Vinny would have filed taxes in the US, and paid foreign taxes in Canada through his career with credit going against declared American income. A move to Montreal might make it difficult to establish a tax home in the US, and require him to file as a resident of Canada, however it's never as simple as comparing tax rates and doing simple math.

In my opinion the tax law is why the Canadiens draft and trade for so many Americans, as an American citizen is entitled by birth right to file their taxes in the USA if they can establish their "tax home".

It's complicated, I am not an accountant, but I do know whether you are Canadian or American you can't just compare nominal or marginal tax rates and determine the cost of coming to Montreal.

 

[GoHabsGo76]

Guy's got a point.

Ridiculous. Yeah, I'm sure a free agent looking for a place to play checks a team's HFBoards section first to see what the fans are talking about him like...