The truth about this team

[Rapala]

Out of curiosity, does anyone think the biggest issue with this team isn't the coaching staff?

Yes go to either of the MT (un) appreciation threads.
I won't tattle but you can see them a mile a way...

 

[Bob b smith]

Please try and follow along if you are going to quote me. I think that we don't have a great lineup, and that our top player is a 58 point guy. I think MB needs to give MT more help up front. I think we lack talent and moving players around is not going to make us an elite team. I think that PAP is a frigging plug that couldn't make it work in Colorado or NY, two bottom feeder teams.

How many points does Max and AG put up playing together? Are they 50 point guys that just need to play together to be 70 point guys? Do we have a stud team that only needs to move AG to C and give him 45 more seconds on the PP to be elite?

If you are going to quote me let's hear how MT takes this lineup and makes it compete with teams like the Pens that have guys that on their top 6 that are better than any player I've ever seen play in red. You think that moving AG to C makes us significantly better? Who plays LW on Pleks line and tell me about that player and his history in the league.

OK you answer these simple questions:
1- Yes or no, should Galchenyuk play on the First Line?
2- Yes or no, should Desharnais be taken off the First Line?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I find some of the lineup choices and player management to be questionable, but we are not in the room to fully answer that question.

I do think that we tend to overrate this roster though. I do not think it is best in the east now, and I didn't believe that before the season either.

This roster is a lot better than it's shown. We know how good PK Subban can be. We know that we're underutilizing players like Eller and Pleks. We know that the PP should be lethal. We've got a goalie who can go toe to toe with any other netminder in the league...

Who's better? The only team I can think of is maybe Tampa.

I mean seriously, did PK Subban just forget how to play hockey or is he following a system that doesn't make sense? How do these guys go from having a lethal PP for years to not knowing how to score?

And now all of a sudden after a huge win streak the Islanders have a better roster than we do? I mean...

 

[japhi]

OK you answer these simple questions:
1- Yes or no, should Galchenyuk play on the First Line?
2- Yes or no, should Desharnais be taken off the First Line?

Sorry, I don't play the back and forth HF game where you move the goal posts each time. I've read enough posts where guys forget what they are arguing about.

My posts in this thread were about the overall talent level of this team, I believe we have some big holes and that no changes to assignments will make us an elite team. You quoted me so if you want to engage me you can answer the questions in my last post and make your case.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Please try and follow along if you are going to quote me. I think that we don't have a great lineup, and that our top player is a 58 point guy. I think MB needs to give MT more help up front. I think we lack talent and moving players around is not going to make us an elite team. I think that PAP is a frigging plug that couldn't make it work in Colorado or NY, two bottom feeder teams.

How many points does Max and AG put up playing together? Are they 50 point guys that just need to play together to be 70 point guys? Do we have a stud team that only needs to move AG to C and give him 45 more seconds on the PP to be elite?

If you are going to quote me let's hear how MT takes this lineup and makes it compete with teams like the Pens that have guys that on their top 6 that are better than any player I've ever seen play in red. You think that moving AG to C makes us significantly better? Who plays LW on Pleks line and tell me about that player and his history in the league.

Max was pacing at 67 points per 82 games last year. Injuries prevented him from getting close to 70 o begin with.

Why would it shock you to think that Max would be a 70 point guy? No reason for him not to be. He's putting up 40 goals with a ****** center in bad systems and getting almost no offense from the PP. Give him Galchenyuk, Eller or Pleks with a puck control system and he'll get 70 points easily. Fixing the PP alone would get him close to 80 actually. Give him a better center, fix the PP and he could be pushing a point per game. And we should be putting Galchenyuk with him to help his development.

 

[Justin11]

Sorry, I don't play the back and forth HF game where you move the goal posts each time. I've read enough posts where guys forget what they are arguing about.

My posts in this thread were about the overall talent level of this team, I believe we have some big holes and that no changes to assignments will make us an elite team. You quoted me so if you want to engage me you can answer the questions in my last post and make your case.

I wont disagree with you that there are some holes to fill.

Do you believe that if these holes are filled, Habs will win the cup with MT behind the bench?

 

[Svart]

Time to make a move for Yakupov before he breaks out and while the Oilers are in a super vulnerable situation.

 

[Sword]

About Max Pac scoring +70pts a season, I doubt it. Unless, he stops floating. I know, he'll never be the power forward we wanted him to be, it's just so frustrating not to see him play like Sekac does. He did not look more involved physically when playing with the two Gallys last night. Remember when Gallagher and Desharnais were doing all the battles in the board for him? I'm not even sure DD was the real reason why our 1st line was struggling.

 

[japhi]

Why would it shock you to think that Max would be a 70 point guy? No reason for him not to be. He's putting up 40 goals with a ****** center in bad systems and getting almost no offense from the PP. Give him Galchenyuk, Eller or Pleks with a puck control system and he'll get 70 points easily.

WTF is with you guys? I don't expect you to follow other teams and the league, but surely you know that Max has never put up 40 goals. Ever. He has 119 in 343. In his best year point wise he had 15 in 44. 28 goal pace. He wasn't even a 40 goal guy in the USHL, or in College. On pace for 35 goals this year. 39 one year is not 40, just like a guy that scored 49 is not in the 50 goal club.

So if you want to portray him as a 40 goal guy that's crushing it that it follows that he is playing with the right guy.

If you want to make an argument that his is a 45-50 goal guy with a different centre I'm all ears. Please be specific.

 

[Habsawce]

I find some of the lineup choices and player management to be questionable, but we are not in the room to fully answer that question.

I do think that we tend to overrate this roster though. I do not think it is best in the east now, and I didn't believe that before the season either.

But is there a bigger issue than the coaching staff? Like, is there something in this roster that the coaching has no bearing on and is hurting the team.

For example, no amount of coaching is going to help the fact that Edmonton can't get a save. Or, if Therrien had no option but to play Allen & Weaver making it not his fault and Bergevins.

 

[Nicko999]

This roster is a lot better than it's shown. We know how good PK Subban can be. We know that we're underutilizing players like Eller and Pleks. We know that the PP should be lethal. We've got a goalie who can go toe to toe with any other netminder in the league...

Who's better? The only team I can think of is maybe Tampa.

I mean seriously, did PK Subban just forget how to play hockey or is he following a system that doesn't make sense? How do these guys go from having a lethal PP for years to not knowing how to score?

And now all of a sudden after a huge win streak the Islanders have a better roster than we do? I mean...

Underutilizing Pleks? I mean the Malhotra acquision happened so Plekanec can play less and be fresh for the playoffs. How much do you want him to play? 20+ minutes?

 

[japhi]

I wont disagree with you that there are some holes to fill.

Do you believe that if these holes are filled, Habs will win the cup with MT behind the bench?

Honestly I have no idea, but my overall opinion of coaches is pretty low. I think a great coach can inspire a weak team but that talent overrides everything. Looks at the list of guys that have coached Cup winning teams.

Talent wins cups and coaches are overrated. Look at the teams Bowman won with, insane talent. Torts won a cup with TB for christ sake and no one will put him behind a bench again. Carlyle won a cup, is he a great coach?

 

[Nicko999]

But is there a bigger issue than the coaching staff? Like, is there something in this roster that the coaching has no bearing on and is hurting the team.

For example, no amount of coaching is going to help the fact that Edmonton can't get a save. Or, if Therrien had no option but to play Allen & Weaver making it not his fault and Bergevins.

Yea, weak on the wings... I mean, I'm all for Galchenyuk to play center. But just imagine how AWFUL our depth on the wings would become then... Pacioretty, Gallagher, Parenteau, Sekac, Weise, Prust... That's literally one of the worst group of wingers in the NHL. Apart from Pacioretty, none of those guys will even reach 40 pts (Gallagher maybe but not much more).

 

[Habsawce]

Honestly I have no idea, but my overall opinion of coaches is pretty low. I think a great coach can inspire a weak team but that talent overrides everything. Looks at the list of guys that have coached Cup winning teams.

Talent wins cups and coaches are overrated. Look at the teams Bowman won with, insane talent. Torts won a cup with TB for christ sake and no one will put him behind a bench again.

The coaching staff has very distinct responsibilities on a professional hockey team. It's not like minor hockey or juniors where he can go in there and peel paint and change things around. These guys are professionals. As far as I'm concerned these are the responsibilities of Therrien and his staff, correct me if I'm wrong or add something I'm missing:

1. Special teams
2. Creating and implementing a system
3. Managing the line up to put players in the best position to be successful
4. Ice time management
5. In game adjustments

There are other aspects coaches are involved with, like psychology but at the end of the day these are the aspects that are directly visible to everyone on the outside as to their effectiveness. We don't see the behind the scenes stuff that perhaps Therrien is the best in the world at, and frankly we'll never know. But I do know this, for me Therrien and his staff are vastly inferior to almost every other coaching staff in this league in the 5 aspects I named. It shows, and it leads to lack of effort and cohesiveness on the ice.

 

[OldCraig71]

Someone has finally discovered the truth.

 

[Capitaine Subban*]

So what?

Seriously man, we're not asking who has the best first line center it's who has the best roster. Who do the Islanders have behind Tavares at center? Who do they have who compares to Subban? Who do they have in net?

They have John Tavares so they have the better team? Okay man...

And btw, on this team John Tavares would STILL be used as our 2nd line center behind DD.

See my comments above.

You've summed up your own post really well here.
Yeah... right.

 

[Habsawce]

Yea, weak on the wings... I mean, I'm all for Galchenyuk to play center. But just imagine how AWFUL our depth on the wings would become then... Pacioretty, Gallagher, Parenteau, Sekac, Weise, Prust... That's literally one of the worst group of wingers in the NHL. Apart from Pacioretty, none of those guys will even reach 40 pts (Gallagher maybe but not much more).

Check out the wingers on Pittsburgh and the Islanders. Anaheim has Bourque on the top line at wing. It's all about centre depth and defense in which this team has some terrific players that just aren't being used properly.

I know I'm not the only one that feels this way, but you win Championships down the middle.

 

[japhi]

The coaching staff has very distinct responsibilities on a professional hockey team. It's not like minor hockey or juniors where he can go in there and peel paint and change things around. These guys are professionals. As far as I'm concerned these are the responsibilities of Therrien and his staff, correct me if I'm wrong or add something I'm missing:

1. Special teams
2. Creating and implementing a system
3. Managing the line up to put players in the best position to be successful
4. Ice time management
5. In game adjustments

There are other aspects coaches are involved with, like psychology but at the end of the day these are the aspects that are directly visible to everyone on the outside as to their effectiveness. We don't see the behind the scenes stuff that perhaps Therrien is the best in the world at, and frankly we'll never know. But I do know this, for me Therrien and his staff are vastly inferior to almost every other coaching staff in this league in the 5 aspects I named. It shows, and it leads to lack of effort and cohesiveness on the ice.

Thanks for the education, I think it's great that you are compiling data on those 5 aspects across all 32 teams to come to your conclusion. Care to share the raw data? Also, I'm very interested in how Jack Capuano is doing in NY, care to share your thoughts on how he is "Managing the line up to put players in the best position to be successful"?

Also interested in your thoughts on how Bill Peters in doing on #5, "In game adjustments". He's obviously a better coach than Therrien and I'd like to know what advice you would give to MT on this aspect.

 

[deandebean]

This team lacks scoring. It's pretty much a given. We do not have top-end offensive talents like Tampa and Pittsburgh. Tampa has a very, very good team. Surprised me a ton. I didn't expect them to repeat, but they're even better than I thought. Although they lost against Columbus. We are in the mix for a mid-pack or top 5 in the conference, but that's about it. Pittsburgh may have holes in their lineup, like we do. But they have world beaters. We don't. Those two guys alone make them better than practically everybody in the East.

Boston has dropped, the Rags are playing pretty badly half the time, Detroit is very beatable, and the Islanders has young talent, but unknown quality. They're on a roll, though, and they play in a market where they are pretty much anonymous. So that helps them.

Montreal is thus in the top 5, but surely not a top 2. Not close. Our goalie might make us a pretender. But that's about it. Having a 35-goal winger and a premier defenceman is not enough.

Although I hate this coach with a passion, hate his line set-up and hate his system, and hate the way he treats kids and hate the fact that he thinks he's a master in development while he's plain putrid, this team is still far from being a contender.

 

[Habsawce]

Thanks for the education, I think it's great that you are compiling data on those 5 aspects across all 32 teams to come to your conclusion. Care to share the raw data? Also, I'm very interested in how Jack Capuano is doing in NY, care to share your thoughts on how he is "Managing the line up to put players in the best position to be successful"?

Also interested in your thoughts on how Bill Peters in doing on #5, "In game adjustments". He's obviously a better coach than Therrien and I'd like to know what advice you would give to MT on this aspect.

Instead of resorting to insults and backhanded comments you could tell me what you think of Therrien and his staff in relation to these coaching aspects. I believe I formulated a respectful post on my thoughts and you replied like this?

 

[japhi]

Check out the wingers on Pittsburgh and the Islanders. Anaheim has Bourque on the top line at wing. It's all about centre depth and defense in which this team has some terrific players that just aren't being used properly.

I know I'm not the only one that feels this way, but you win Championships down the middle.

We have depth at C? We have DD who everyone hates, a 10 point guy on the fourth line (well 0.0 this year), and Eller who put up 26 points last year. Pleks is a real talent but he's the only guy that's produced in the NHL.

Even if you add AG, we have a 20 YO guy that hasn't played C since junior and Pleks. If that's depth, what does San Jose or Anaheim have?

 

[deandebean]

We have depth at C? We have DD who everyone hates, a 10 point guy on the fourth line (well 0.0 this year), and Eller who put up 26 points last year. Pleks is a real talent but he's the only guy that's produced in the NHL.

Even if you add AG, we have a 20 YO guy that hasn't played C since junior and Pleks. If that's depth, what does San Jose or Anaheim have?

I agree 100%. The only 'known' quality we have at center is Plekanec. And even him has dropped a notch or three since October.

I've never seen a Habs team being a real contender with one huge asset in net, a premier defenceman and just one sniper. Even our 86 and 93 cup years, our offence was much better and we had talent everywhere, although some would say very young. But talent still.

 

[japhi]

Instead of resorting to insults and backhanded comments you could tell me what you think of Therrien and his staff in relation to these coaching aspects. I believe I formulated a respectful post on my thoughts and you replied like this?

LOL.

First off, you replied to one of my posts. You engaged me and you claimed that Therrien is one of the worst coaches in the league based on 5 arbitrary metrics. I called you out on that. There were no insults in my post.

It's okay if you mostly or only watch the Habs, I have no idea what the other coaches in the league are good at. You claimed knowledge and if you have it please share.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

WTF is with you guys? I don't expect you to follow other teams and the league, but surely you know that Max has never put up 40 goals. Ever. He has 119 in 343. In his best year point wise he had 15 in 44. 28 goal pace. He wasn't even a 40 goal guy in the USHL, or in College. On pace for 35 goals this year. 39 one year is not 40, just like a guy that scored 49 is not in the 50 goal club.

Way to put on a clinic for cherrypicking stats.

Let's set you straight on a few things. If you're going to use pace, use it for the player he is now. Don't go back to his rookie season to try to manipulate the data. Max was on pace for 67 points and 44 goals last year. I have zero problem with anyone calling him a 40 goal man, esp when he was well on pace for it and ended with 39.

Secondly, he's on pace for 35 goals and 58 points with almost no PP productions and an anvil for a center. Getting to 70 points would be a walk in the park with any of our other guys and fixing the PP to go along with it puts him somewhere around 80.

No reason this guy can't be a 75 point player at least.

So if you want to portray him as a 40 goal guy that's crushing it that it follows that he is playing with the right guy.

Why? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever esp when his center is struggling to do anything at all this year.

If you want to make an argument that his is a 45-50 goal guy with a different centre I'm all ears. Please be specific.

How specific do you want us to be?

67 point pace last year with a garbage center and bad PP minutes. All he'd need is 3 more points and he's a 70 point guy. What kind of pie chart do you need drawn for you here? How is it that you would like to be spoonfed?

 

[Habsawce]

LOL.

First off, you replied to one of my posts. You engaged me and you claimed that Therrien is one of the worst coaches in the league based on 5 arbitrary metrics. I called you out on that. There were no insults in my post.

It's okay if you mostly or only watch the Habs, I have no idea what the other coaches in the league are good at. You claimed knowledge and if you have it please share.

I watch other teams, not as much as I used to but I do. However, you don't need to watch every game to see Therrien get out coached by every guy that comes to town. This isn't a new phenomenon or breaking news to anyone.

I will say he was good in the playoffs last year, and about half of the lock out season. But other than that, he's been very poor in every coaching aspect of the game that we can visibly see. If you disagree, I'd be curious to hear why.

Think about it this way. If a player had 2 good stretches over 3 seasons, what would we be saying about him? What would the GM do?