The "Tanking" And/Or Other Roster Moves Discussion Thread

[Double-Shift Lasse]

No. Because in that situation, that type of player (Joey/Zherdev etc) is the worst case result.

I hope you’re right. My gut tells me folks would expect the strategy to result in better. (Although an oft-discussed player, Marner, was 4OA.)

Anyway, I would expect a lot of folks to gravitate toward the ‘but it’s still the worst case’ POV.

 

[Cowumbus]

...I don't have the patience to deal with this nonsense right now. Suffice to say that this is as much a reach and rationalization as the "advanced stats say we deserved to win tonight" stuff, if not even moreso.

You can’t seem to accept that it’s in the best interest of our franchise to draft a player (early first round) to turn our crappy team around. You’ll figure it out eventually.

http://statsportsconsulting.com/main/wp-content/uploads/Schuckers_NHL_Draftchart.pdf
Not all picks are created equal.

Nonsense is not any and everything you disagree with, hon.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

You can’t seem to accept that it’s in the best interest of our franchise to draft a player (early first round) to turn our crappy team around. You’ll figure it out eventually.

Nonsense is not any and everything you disagree with, hon.

Murray, PLD. Neither ‘turned the franchise around. Johansson didn’t either. What they did was contribute to the overall improvement of the roster, eventually. Remember, worst case scenario.

 

[Cowumbus]

Murray, PLD. Neither ‘turned the franchise around. Johansson didn’t either. What they did was contribute to the overall improvement of the roster, eventually. Remember, worst case scenario.

Johansen was used to acquire Jones. He absolutely turned it around by helping get a 1D. Dubois also helped turn the franchise around. We now have one center to build around. I would argue that if Murray would actually stay healthy we would look different.. might even allow us to trade someone like ZW for Elite C help.

http://statsportsconsulting.com/main/wp-content/uploads/Schuckers_NHL_Draftchart.pdf

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Johansen was used to acquire Jones. He absolutely turned it around by helping get a 1D. Dubois also helped turn the franchise around. We now have one center to build around. I would argue that if Murray would actually stay healthy we would look different.. might even allow us to trade someone like ZW for Elite C help.

http://statsportsconsulting.com/main/wp-content/uploads/Schuckers_NHL_Draftchart.pdf

So the team will draft a player whose contribution to the team will to be traded in a few seasons? That’s complaint city right there and not what I’d think would make people happy after a tank.

Look, I understand where you’re headed I think. Higher draft pick means a better player. But I stand by the notions that 1) people would complain if the team got a pick outside the top 2 maybe 3 after a dedicated tank and 2) that 4/5OA players are really good but that none of them have ‘turned the franchise around.’

Anyway, good convo. Good night.

 

[Monstershockey]

Johansen was used to acquire Jones. He absolutely turned it around by helping get a 1D. Dubois also helped turn the franchise around. We now have one center to build around. I would argue that if Murray would actually stay healthy we would look different.. might even allow us to trade someone like ZW for Elite C help.

http://statsportsconsulting.com/main/wp-content/uploads/Schuckers_NHL_Draftchart.pdf

Some people say Johanson was run out of town by Torts, not used to improve the team.

 

[EspenK]

Some people say Johanson was run out of town by Torts, not used to improve the team.

And they would be wrong,

 

[Monstershockey]

And they would be wrong,

I totally agree.

 

[Madifer]

Torts looked lost and exhausted during the post game interview yesterday. He also looked as if he's ready to retire..

Maybe its time to part with him.

 

[DarkandStormy]

 

[EspenK]

Jackets now 8 out of last wild card spot...with lots of teams between them and that coveted spot.

My take is that without beginning a re-tooling (hate to say rebuild cause) the Jackets are destined to be at best a tweener team. Not good enough to make the playoffs consistently and not bad enough to be a bottom 3 team to guarantee a good draft spot.

I really hope Jarmo deals for some picks at the TDL to replenish our depleted draft picks. Our "strength" are our D-men. This is where I'd look to trade. With the addition of Gavrikov and the apparent emergence of Peeke, I think we could give up any D men except Jones, Zach & Murray. Trade one of Nuti, Kukan, Savard, Harrington, I don't care which one.

I'd also consider moving Nyqvist, Cam (assuming his modified NTC has kicked in), Foligno if he'd waive and Nash.

Now, this strategy won't produce a strong contender next year or two and most likely won't even produce a playoff team but if changes aren't made there is little that will be different.

Oh, and trade Wennie if anyone would want him.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Now, this strategy won't produce a strong contender next year or two and most likely won't even produce a playoff team but if changes aren't made there is little that will be different.

In this very same sentence you suggest that if nothing is done, little will be different and if something is done, little will be different.

 

[EspenK]

In this very same sentence you suggest that if nothing is done, little will be different and if something is done, little will be different.

Not really. If taken literally I guess you could come to that conclusion but I know you are smarter than that and probably realize that my point was that if nothing is done then the team will continue to perform as they have this year while my proposed changes at least give some hope that the team will improve over time with the addition of additional prospects.

Are you sure you weren't an editor? I believe you would be a good one, loved by the readers and hated by your writers.

And how 'bout that run on sentence.

 

[JacketsDavid]

In this very same sentence you suggest that if nothing is done, little will be different and if something is done, little will be different.

I think in my mind we will be stuck in this circle of at best maybe a wild card team and more than likely just outside looking in until we can add an elite offensive player (maybe even two).
Only 2 ways for us to get that person - draft him and wait or trade for him. Let's be honest it's not coming via free agency.
In either case you need draft picks. Draft picks to either draft with or to trade to add players (also could trade prospects).

I'm not sure if there is any value in trading guys like Nash (really what does that get you a 6th round pick or low level prospect)? But it does free up playing time, that's probably the value in trading him.

I think the CBJ have to determine what the plan is. In my mind you have to think about Seth Jones. He will be with us a couple more years but do we really think he will sign here long-term? You have to make tough calls on things like that. If he gets going (he's not playing well right now) he would have a ton of value and could kick start the rebuild.
Obviously if we think he does love Columbus and the front office thinks they can keep him then makes no sense to trade him.

 

[Viqsi]

my point was that if nothing is done then the team will continue to perform as they have this year

I'm not convinced that's a given. It might not be enough to pull this team into the playoffs this year, but at this point I'm not sure if that's a realistic goal in any case.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Not really. If taken literally I guess you could come to that conclusion but I know you are smarter than that and probably realize that my point was that if nothing is done then the team will continue to perform as they have this year while my proposed changes at least give some hope that the team will improve over time with the addition of additional prospects.

Are you sure you weren't an editor? I believe you would be a good one, loved by the readers and hated by your writers.

And how 'bout that run on sentence.

One could argue the Jackets just re-tooled, letting overpriced (or priced-out) veteran players leave and starting a mini-rebuild with young players.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think the CBJ have to determine what the plan is.

What if this is the plan? No, not to suck, but to continue to grow and replenish with young players? I mean, there are probably a handful of ways to get there but I think just because the team is not getting the results that we'd all prefer doesn't mean there's no plan, both that got us here and moving forward.

Again, not to say that some of the individual players you reference won't require a decision, but only that maybe it's been made in a macro sense.

 

[EDM]

Here is the simple case against tanking: DOES ANYONE REALLY WANT JARMO IN CHARGE OF A REBUILD ??? SERIOUSLY JARMO THE PATRON FATHER OF THE WORST PLAYER ON OUR TEAM (POOH)? YOU WANT HIM DIRECTING A REBUILD ???
Heck, firing him would be a critical part of any successful rebuild and I see no indication anywhere within the organization that terminating Jarmo is being actively considered.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Here is the simple case against tanking: DOES ANYONE REALLY WANT JARMO IN CHARGE OF A REBUILD ??? SERIOUSLY JARMO THE PATRON FATHER OF THE WORST PLAYER ON OUR TEAM (POOH)? YOU WANT HIM DIRECTING A REBUILD ???
Heck, firing him would be a critical part of any successful rebuild and I see no indication anywhere within the organization that terminating Jarmo is being actively considered.

Right but there are a lot of things we see no indication of happening but it doesn't mean they're not happening.

I tend to agree that he's not going to be fired but I'm pretty pragmatic about it.

 

[JacketsDavid]

What if this is the plan? No, not to suck, but to continue to grow and replenish with young players? I mean, there are probably a handful of ways to get there but I think just because the team is not getting the results that we'd all prefer doesn't mean there's no plan, both that got us here and moving forward.

Again, not to say that some of the individual players you reference won't require a decision, but only that maybe it's been made in a macro sense.

Could be.
That's what happened before Panarin is we kept cycling players, and got to a point that we could compete (some combo of adding Bob, trading for Jones and having some other guys step up). Then added Panarin and was more competitive and finally won a series. So you could be right.

 

[EspenK]

One could argue the Jackets just re-tooled, letting overpriced (or priced-out) veteran players leave and starting a mini-rebuild with young players.

That was pretty much a forced re-tooling. I'd like to see evidence of a voluntary re-tooling. Of course the problem is who wants much of what we should trade. I'd say Savard or one of the other D not named Jones or Werenski or Cam would bring the best return but Cam could regain his scoring touch and become William Karlsson Part Deux. Also if Jarmo wants players in return he isn't going to get that from buyers at the TDL. He needs to either wait till the off season or pull something together soon.

 

[Finner]

Name one better GM in CBJ history than Jarmo? Have to remember he comes as "rookie" for his point. Why wouldnt someone want to see Jarmo leading the rebuild?

 

[ViD]

Panarin trade and PLD pick over a Finnish Pool Party were a few top notch moves

 

[domi28]

Name one better GM in CBJ history than Jarmo? Have to remember he comes as "rookie" for his point. Why wouldnt someone want to see Jarmo leading the rebuild?

In six plus years Jarmo has taken a fringe playoff team and turned them into a ... non-playoff team. That's not a guy to lead a rebuild in my book.

We can talk all we want about Jarmo being the best GM in CBJ history but at some point he needs to be compared to his NHL peers. While the rest of the league GMs have been moving towards highly skilled offensive teams Jarmo has been building from the net out like it's the mid 90s. This shouldn't be a surprise but the bottom seven teams in goals for occupy seven of the bottom eight spots in the standings. Offense is king in the NHL right now and Jarmo has built the exact opposite of that.

 

[Madifer]

I'm not convinced that's a given. It might not be enough to pull this team into the playoffs this year, but at this point I'm not sure if that's a realistic goal in any case.

Come on, did you really expect to make the PO this year? It was written in the stars that they wouldnt get there.

This season is all about finding the bottom and glimpses of hope about the future. That this wont be the start of a multiyear downtrend a la Detroit. As mentioned earlier: I think the team is still bottoming or has entered a slow uptrend.

If the youngsters can show signs of growth and if Cams and Seths wake the fk up, then the next season could be more interesting.

The fun of this season is all about speculating and not about the playoffs.

This franchise is very special and tragically unique. Like a flawed diamond by creation that can still sparkle sometimes, in a way that nobody can predict or expect. Just not this year.