The Tank Megathread | VI --- All Tank Talk & Standings Talk [Mod Warning Post 535]

[Zaddy91]

How the hell does this team go 9-3-2. We seem to be getting all the luck a team like Edmonton (this season) isn't getting. Who know's maybe we'll get their lottery luck

Because we're not crappy, and actually have good prospects now?

I know mind boggling

 

[The Drop]

Because we're not crappy, and actually have good prospects now?

I know mind boggling

Wrong. The Canucks ARE crap. They're just getting great goaltending and all the luck in the world.

And the prospects haven't looked good lately either.

Virtanen had a good game today though

 

[Agent007]

In all seriousness the thing that frustrates me the most is that we seem to have these B and maybe even B+ level assets. Sure these guys could surprise and end up as those A level guys you build teams around but odds are that most likely won't happen.

The thing that stings me the most here is that if we did end up with a top 5 pick this year and maybe even next year we could potentially end up with two legit bluechip prospects to add to the guys we currently have.

That gives us the chance to give this one last strong push with twins to win the cup while also passing the torch on to the next generation.

Just to illustrate my point here imagine a lineup that looked something like this 1-2 years from now (imagine for a second tanking and winning the Matthews lottery while then trading a package involving McCann or Virtanen for say Vatanen to upgrade the blueline):

Sedin-Sedin-Hansen?
Shink-Matthews-Virtanen
Bae-Horvat-Gaunce
Etem-Sutter-Dorsett

Edler-Tanev
Hutton-Vatanen
Sbisa-Biega

Markstrom
Miller/Find some goalie as a backup or 1B

I'm pretty sure that lineup would also have a decent amount of cap space so you could upgrade the bottom pair and a top 6 forward to put this team in position to really compete while bringing in the young kids which includes a stud prospect in Matthews.

 

[Agent007]

Because we're not crappy, and actually have good prospects now?

I know mind boggling

6 of those 9 wins came in OT or shootout. How many good teams win 67% of their games in OT or shootout?

 

[Zaddy91]

6 of those 9 wins came in OT or shootout. How many good teams win 67% of their games in OT or shootout?

And how many teams win with a centre core of a combined 500 NHL games?

Henrik and Sutter are out, come, on

I disagree with rating our prospects B and B+

Horvat has higher PPG than Ryan Johansen his first two NHL season

Baertschi was a 13th overall

Virtanen is gonna take a hell of a long time, but it''ll be worth it

Markstrom
Hutton
McCann

Are you telling me these are all B+ celiing players.

I think Canucks nation has just been without real prospects in far too long, and don't get me started on thee free agent who will not be named

 

[Bougieman]

If you had told anyone at the beginning of the season that by game 48 the Canucks would not only be in a playoff spot, but ahead of Montreal and Nashville in the standings, they would have told you that you need to stop smoking the wacky tobaccy, and 'lets be reality'.

 

[bossram]

Because we're not crappy, and actually have good prospects now?

I know mind boggling

We're getting results, but we're not good. Luck certainly has been on our side + Miller/Markstrom have been putting in tremendous performances.

It's nice to see the kids get some points and perform well. But bottom-line this team is still getting consistently outplayed and that certainly isn't a long-run plan to success.

Any pretense we can be competitive is delusional. In terms of talent, we're still much closer to a lottery pick than a playoff spot. We're dead last in the league in terms of scoring-chance differential. That can't be good.

 

[thepoeticgoblin]

My bad. Maybe I need to make some anti-tank avatars to bring balance back to the force.

Yeah, way to scapegoat huh?

If you ever do make a new batch of avatars - may I suggest a youth movement one? As long as your jinx powers aren't too great obviously...

 

[ChilliBilly]

A note of interest.

going by games over/under .500

We are in a 4 way tie for for 7t in the West with Arz Nash and Col (at +3). and Ana is one game back.

Right now there are 15 teams above us in the standings, 8 tied at +3, Car and Ana right behind us.

Our draft position is literally a couple of points from being anywhere from 15th to 5th. Simply put, we had better have a great finish, or dive for the last 34 games.

The team is going to get a lot of rest when they come home, 1 game in 10 days over the all star break, and for the most part we play teams in the middle of the pack until mid march.

 

[CanaFan]

And how many teams win with a centre core of a combined 500 NHL games?

Henrik and Sutter are out, come, on

I disagree with rating our prospects B and B+

Horvat has higher PPG than Ryan Johansen his first two NHL season

Baertschi was a 13th overall

Virtanen is gonna take a hell of a long time, but it''ll be worth it

Markstrom
Hutton
McCann

Are you telling me these are all B+ celiing players.

I think Canucks nation has just been without real prospects in far too long, and don't get me started on thee free agent who will not be named

C'mon man, Henrik has been out for 2 1/2 games, not the entire stretch. And we played equally bad in the Carolina game with Henrik (outshot 40-22) as we did in the NYI and NYR games without Henrik. Everyone loves this narrative that we are playing "so well" without Henrik but the reality is we are playing exactly the same, namely getting massively outplayed but getting great goaltending or lucky bounces to pick up points. Last nights game in Boston has been the only exception so far.

And what exactly are we missing in Sutter? He's a passable 3C who has been passed by Horvat in the last 20 games. When he comes back he will either bump Vey down a line, which is probably a minor upgrade, or bump Horvat back down to the third which would be a massive downgrade.

So in the end missing 2 1/2 games of Hank and 30ish games of a mediocre player in Sutter doesn't make this streak some sort of triumph of human will, it just shows that hot goaltending and luck can combine to produce some very unlikely results.

 

[Proto]

Having goaltending carry a team with bottom-five peripheral results is literally the worst thing that can happen for a franchise. On the other hand, a Matthews or Laine would probably mean we were stuck with Benning for a decade (he'd be our George McPhee), so I'm sort of rooting for the playoffs now. The sooner these guys are gone, the better.

 

[CanaFan]

Having goaltending carry a team with bottom-five peripheral results is literally the worst thing that can happen for a franchise. On the other hand, a Matthews or Laine would probably mean we were stuck with Benning for a decade (he'd be our George McPhee), so I'm sort of rooting for the playoffs now. The sooner these guys are gone, the better.

That's quite the dilemma. Matthews and stuck with Benning or Playoffs and stuck with Benning.

I'll take Matthews because he's at least sure to outlast Benning much like the Sedins outlasted Burke and Nonis to still be here for the 2011 run.

Besides finishing that low in the standings is likely to piss Aquillini off more than making playoffs.

 

[opendoor]

Looks like Vancouver has now surpassed 2012-2013 BUF and is closing in on 2013-2014 TOR in terms of worst scoring chance ratio in the last decade. Probably not going to catch 2014-2015 BUF for last place, but I'm sure they'll try.

Actually 2013-2014 TOR is probably a good comparable for this team so far. They were abysmal in every area except for goaltending and ended up finishing 23rd and drafting 8th overall. The Canucks currently sit 22nd in points %.

As for the tank, we'll see how the Canucks handle playing the Western Conference again. Even crappy Western Conference teams tend to do well against the East, as EDM, CGY, and WPG all have winning records. And with 27 games against them so far, the Canucks have actually played more games against that conference than 9 of the 18 Eastern Conference teams have. 29 of their final 34 games are against the Western Conference, against whom they have 8 wins in 21 games and are 2-8-0 in their last 10, so we'll see how they hold up.

 

[Proto]

That's quite the dilemma. Matthews and stuck with Benning or Playoffs and stuck with Benning.

I'll take Matthews because he's at least sure to outlast Benning much like the Sedins outlasted Burke and Nonis to still be here for the 2011 run.

Besides finishing that low in the standings is likely to piss Aquillini off more than making playoffs.

I agree if it's a Top 3 pick, but it would still probably leave us in a tough spot. Getting a #1 pick with questionable management doesn't usually end well. Best-case scenario there is we end up like the Capitals and we're competitive but do a bunch of dumb peripheral stuff for 10 years before firing our GM and getting back on track.

 

[CanaFan]

Looks like Vancouver has now surpassed 2012-2013 BUF and is closing in on 2013-2014 TOR in terms of worst scoring chance ratio in the last decade. Probably not going to catch 2014-2015 BUF for last place, but I'm sure they'll try.

Actually 2013-2014 TOR is probably a good comparable for this team so far. They were abysmal in every area except for goaltending and ended up finishing 23rd and drafting 8th overall. The Canucks currently sit 22nd in points %.

As for the tank, we'll see how the Canucks handle playing the Western Conference again. Even crappy Western Conference teams tend to do well against the East, as EDM, CGY, and WPG all have winning records. And with 27 games against them so far, the Canucks have actually played more games against that conference than 9 of the 18 Eastern Conference teams have. 29 of their final 34 games are against the Western Conference, against whom they have 8 wins in 21 games and are 2-8-0 in their last 10, so we'll see how they hold up.

Perfect post to start my day! Thanks for pulling that together.

 

[Seattle Totems]

And how many teams win with a centre core of a combined 500 NHL games?

Henrik and Sutter are out, come, on

I disagree with rating our prospects B and B+

Horvat has higher PPG than Ryan Johansen his first two NHL season

Baertschi was a 13th overall

Virtanen is gonna take a hell of a long time, but it''ll be worth it

Markstrom
Hutton
McCann

Are you telling me these are all B+ celiing players.

I think Canucks nation has just been without real prospects in far too long, and don't get me started on thee free agent who will not be named

Johansen did not dream about playing for the Canucks so stop incessantly bringing up this deluded fantasy that he will sign here. Stick to the facts.

 

[Proto]

Looks like Vancouver has now surpassed 2012-2013 BUF and is closing in on 2013-2014 TOR in terms of worst scoring chance ratio in the last decade. Probably not going to catch 2014-2015 BUF for last place, but I'm sure they'll try.

Actually 2013-2014 TOR is probably a good comparable for this team so far. They were abysmal in every area except for goaltending and ended up finishing 23rd and drafting 8th overall. The Canucks currently sit 22nd in points %.

As for the tank, we'll see how the Canucks handle playing the Western Conference again. Even crappy Western Conference teams tend to do well against the East, as EDM, CGY, and WPG all have winning records. And with 27 games against them so far, the Canucks have actually played more games against that conference than 9 of the 18 Eastern Conference teams have. 29 of their final 34 games are against the Western Conference, against whom they have 8 wins in 21 games and are 2-8-0 in their last 10, so we'll see how they hold up.

They could easily end up like the 12/13 Leafs when Nonis took over and everyone heralded his genius. He followed up that season with his Clarkson signing...

Your move, Jimbo.

 

[Shareefruck]

I feel like the people in this thread who are anti-tank seem to be arguing based on emotion rather than reason (which seems to only be getting used as a tool justify the emotion). That's fine, and expect some internal conflict from the tank crowd for the same reason, but realize that it makes it impossible to argue against. The argument hasn't been very compelling so far.

I mean, I get that it feels better to be passionate about hockey and prioritize principle and entertainment above all else-- It can even feel liberating to be emotional and stubborn about that.

But how can anyone honestly be optimistic about where this team's headed if it keeps treading water in the middle of the standings like this? You need a high concentration of top-end young players to make a dent in the future. We have a handful who can get there if they're lucky, but it's an outrageous amount to ask to try to squeeze that much out of that little potential. Although there's no guarantee either way, right now, there's no plan in place at all-- we're just crossing our fingers and praying for something highly unlikely to happen.

 

[GailWilliams]

I can understand the appeal of tanking and getting that shiny new pick, but is now the best time to do it? I think ideally you want to be a contender as soon as you acquire your franchise player and you need a good supporting cast already in place. Chicago had already drafted Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Crawford, Bolland etc. several years before acquiring Toews and Kane. I think we need to address our defense before really bottoming out and acquiring a Matthews type prospect. A slow descent to the bottom might actually be preferable, if it leads to Benning getting canned at the very end. If Benning drafts Matthews now, we will likely be stuck with him for a long time. Let him draft to his hearts content for the next 1-2 years and hope he doesnt make any horrible trades. Let's face it, the bad trades that get blasted on this board will not kill the franchise, and some of them (Baertschi, Pedan, Etem, getting a 2nd for Bieksa) will likely go down as being a win for us.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

I feel like the people in this thread who are anti-tank seem to be arguing based on emotion rather than reason (which seems to only be getting used as a tool justify the emotion). That's fine, and expect some internal conflict from the tank crowd for the same reason, but realize that it makes it impossible to argue against. The argument hasn't been very compelling so far.

I mean, I get that it feels better to be passionate about hockey and prioritize principle and entertainment above all else-- It can even feel liberating to be emotional and stubborn about that.

But how can anyone honestly be optimistic about where this team's headed if it keeps treading water in the middle of the standings like this? You need a high concentration of top-end young players to make a dent in the future. We have a handful who can get there if they're lucky, but it's an outrageous amount to ask to try to squeeze that much out of that little potential. Although there's no guarantee either way, right now, there's no plan in place at all-- we're just crossing our fingers and praying for something highly unlikely to happen.

Perfectly put

 

[CanaFan]

I can understand the appeal of tanking and getting that shiny new pick, but is now the best time to do it? I think ideally you want to be a contender as soon as you acquire your franchise player and you need a good supporting cast already in place. Chicago had already drafted Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Crawford, Bolland etc. several years before acquiring Toews and Kane. I think we need to address our defense before really bottoming out and acquiring a Matthews type prospect. A slow descent to the bottom might actually be preferable, if it leads to Benning getting canned at the very end. If Benning drafts Matthews now, we will likely be stuck with him for a long time. Let him draft to his hearts content for the next 1-2 years and hope he doesnt make any horrible trades. Let's face it, the bad trades that get blasted on this board will not kill the franchise, and some of them (Baertschi, Pedan, Etem, getting a 2nd for Bieksa) will likely go down as being a win for us.

Sorry, any argument that starts with getting Auston Matthews isn't good for this franchise loses me.

Why is starting the rebuild in earnest in 2-3 years better than starting it now? Do you really want to watch 2-3 more years of this boring, slopping hockey than you have to? I know the rebuild is going to be painful, but the sooner it starts the sooner it can potentially lead to something good to watch on the ice. And if you are satisfied with watching Horvat, Baertschi, McCann, Virtanen, Hutton play well and start to form a bigger part of this team's core (which is the only part that i do enjoy these days), well imagine how much you would enjoy watching Matthews or Laine or Nylander be part of that group as well.

I do appreciate the thought you've put into your post and it is 100x better than most of the half-assed attempts to shove a "losing is for losers" narrative down our throats, but I don't think there is any strong rational for not rebuilding today. In my view, teams should either be competing for a cup or building towards competing for a cup. Since this team is clearly not actually competing for anything except a first round punting, I view anything that isn't contributing to a rebuild as just procrastinating and wasting time.

 

[Jarko2004]

The best thing for the Canucks is for the rest of the division to continue to get stronger. Better competition is obviously better for development, and there is no point in making the playoffs by default. It should be a brutal, hard fought struggle.

Having possibly the best goaltending in the division unfortunately hides a lot of problems, but with WD better Miller will mean more Miller which will become injured or bad Miller. Markstrom will finish off the season strong the way Lack did but I don't think the Canucks will have enough points in the bank by that time.

It is kind of depressing that the Canucks are exactly the team Linden/Benning said they would be when they took the job. A team that makes the playoffs. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[racerjoe]

That's quite the dilemma. Matthews and stuck with Benning or Playoffs and stuck with Benning.

I'll take Matthews because he's at least sure to outlast Benning much like the Sedins outlasted Burke and Nonis to still be here for the 2011 run.

Besides finishing that low in the standings is likely to piss Aquillini off more than making playoffs.

I am rooting for a miss of the playoffs and in the 7-11 range draft spot. There are some good dmen to pick there, yet no one that would save Benning. Then one more season of losing until he is gone.

 

[CanaFan]

I feel like the people in this thread who are anti-tank seem to be arguing based on emotion rather than reason (which seems to only be getting used as a tool justify the emotion). That's fine, and expect some internal conflict from the tank crowd for the same reason, but realize that it makes it impossible to argue against. The argument hasn't been very compelling so far.

I mean, I get that it feels better to be passionate about hockey and prioritize principle and entertainment above all else-- It can even feel liberating to be emotional and stubborn about that.

But how can anyone honestly be optimistic about where this team's headed if it keeps treading water in the middle of the standings like this? You need a high concentration of top-end young players to make a dent in the future. We have a handful who can get there if they're lucky, but it's an outrageous amount to ask to try to squeeze that much out of that little potential. Although there's no guarantee either way, right now, there's no plan in place at all-- we're just crossing our fingers and praying for something highly unlikely to happen.

Great post. For me it comes down to two competing views. One seems to prioritize the immediate fun and excitement of winning a game today. The team won, a player who's jersey you own scored a goal, you get to trash talk some Bruins fans on the main boards, etc etc. I get it, there is something to be said for just enjoying the moment and not thinking about the bigger picture.

The other viewpoint prioritizes building a team that can potentially (and finally) bring a Stanley Cup to this city and that winning game 48 of 82 does nothing substantial to further that goal. Drafting an Auston Matthews would further that goal. Drafting a Patrik Laine would further that goal. And those longer term goals outweigh the immediate thrill (if it is even all that thrilling tbh) of winning a few extra games in the regular season.

 

[CanaFan]

I am rooting for a miss of the playoffs and in the 7-11 range draft spot. There are some good dmen to pick there, yet no one that would save Benning. Then one more season of losing until he is gone.

Picking in that range would be golden. Even though I don't prioritize D over forwards (I'm a strict BPA advocate) there are several quality D in that range that would likely be BPA anyway. Juolevi and Sergachyov at the top of that range and Bean and Fabbro towards the end of it would all be brilliant D prospects to have in the cupboard going forward. And with Tanev and Hutton being young, we could potentially have 3/4 of a very good top 4 already in the system, with guys like Pedan, Tryamkin, and Subban to potentially round out the top 6 eventually.