The stock market thread.

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Fixed to Ruin

Come wit it now!
Feb 28, 2007
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1930-crash-chart.jpg


Or, more pointedly,

0423-dow-1929-1954.jpg


I'm not saying we're going down almost 90% off the high - I think 60% is well within the cards - but I am saying that buying massively back into the market when it's ~33% off the 3rd bubble-induced high in 20 years merely because "look at the long-term, stocks haven't been this cheap in years" is a great way to end up going nowhere for years to come.

Finally, every time I hear "the market has priced in everything, the worst is behind us" I'm reminded of the same comments from 2007-2008 and through most of the run-up the last few years. Bad news is seemingly always already factored into the market. Good news is never factored in, and it leads to "bad news? Buy! Wait, it's really good news? Really buy!" mentality that causes the market to rocket up to obscene valuations and people to exclaim this time is different, recessions are a thing of the past, you have to be in stocks, they'll never go down again!

To take the most recent example of this...

Bitcoin was at almost 20,000$ at the end of 2017. When it finally rolled over it crashed into 8,000$ to 10,000$ range in roughly 90 days. Bitcoin had a ~50% decline in early February of 2018. People piled in thinking they were getting the bargain of a lifetime and the price got pushed up ~30% to 12,000$ by the end of February of 2018. Then the next phase of the bust happened and the price fell continuously to the 3000$ range by December of 2018 (1 year later). The crash from the all time highs of ~19,300$ to the new lows of ~3100$ was a 84% decline. If you bought at the 8000$ mark in early February of 2018 thinking you were getting a steal of a deal because "Bitcoin was on sale" you watched your investment decline by another 60% by the end of the year. As of today (End of march 2020) bitcoin is trading at 6500$ still not at the first low of 8000$ from 2018. Therefore, you still haven't recouped your original investment. On top of that inflation eroded your purchasing power of the dollars you invested back in 2018. This isn't a knock on crytpos but more of an observation of market psychology. We are seeing the same play out in the stock markets now.

In my view what we are seeing now is the first bottom and we'll probably see a decent run up from here. However, the virus is creating untold damage to the economy. The whole world is staying at home and saving money like crazy because many aren't earning an income right now and are struggling to keep the lights on and food on the table. Publicly traded companies will soon cut their guidance and dividends as their sales and revenue collapse. Soon we will find out what companies are strong financially will be able to survive the downturn and what companies will fall into bankruptcy (e.g. Enron in 2001, Bear Stearns in 2008, or Bernie Madoff).
 

BahlDeep

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1. This jumps off one of the lower points the Dow was at in the 1978-1982 range, when it was already about 65% off the 1965 high and had dropped below the 1974 low. Of course it's going to look really good from there. Spoiler: we're not at the same point in time in 2020. Jump off March, 2000 and see how those gains look compared to having sat in Treasuries or even a money market account.

2. Even with today's massive rally, everyone who's "systematically put money to work continuously" (read: dollar-cost averaging) in the market is still flat for the last 5 1/2 years. Not "flat after accounting for inflation," I mean "your total return over that period is 0.00%." As of yesterday's close, you were flat for nearly 7 years. If (when) we hit 2100, you'll be flat for 8 years. 2000? 8 1/2 years. 1250 (about where I expect we'll land)? 23 years of buy-and-hold gains will be wiped out. 25 points below that? It'll wipe out everything back to 1995. Inflation-adjusted? It's even worse.

Short-term timing? I agree, 99.99% of people shouldn't do that. Long-term "set it and forget it" a la Ron Pompeil, though? That's just as dumb, IMO. Gains are paper only until you sell, and way too many people won't do that because they fear losing more gains. Buy-and-hold is great as long as stocks go up forever. When they don't, buy-and-hold quickly turns into losses because your cost basis has increased over time. Never be afraid to take gains, don't just put blind faith in "everything will always go back up" because like irrational behavior on the way up, the market can stay irrational longer on the way down than you want to believe is possible.

Ok the discussion is going sideways. You're cherry picking dates and numbers to make your argument and your assumption that the S&P will go to 1250, well good luck with that... anyways, I don't have time for this unfortunately, good luck investing.
 

BahlDeep

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To take the most recent example of this...

Bitcoin was at almost 20,000$ at the end of 2017. When it finally rolled over it crashed into 8,000$ to 10,000$ range in roughly 90 days. Bitcoin had a ~50% decline in early February of 2018. People piled in thinking they were getting the bargain of a lifetime and the price got pushed up ~30% to 12,000$ by the end of February of 2018. Then the next phase of the bust happened and the price fell continuously to the 3000$ range by December of 2018 (1 year later). The crash from the all time highs of ~19,300$ to the new lows of ~3100$ was a 84% decline. If you bought at the 8000$ mark in early February of 2018 thinking you were getting a steal of a deal because "Bitcoin was on sale" you watched your investment decline by another 60% by the end of the year. As of today (End of march 2020) bitcoin is trading at 6500$ still not at the first low of 8000$ from 2018. Therefore, you still haven't recouped your original investment. On top of that inflation eroded your purchasing power of the dollars you invested back in 2018. This isn't a knock on crytpos but more of an observation of market psychology. We are seeing the same play out in the stock markets now.

In my view what we are seeing now is the first bottom and we'll probably see a decent run up from here. However, the virus is creating untold damage to the economy. The whole world is staying at home and saving money like crazy because many aren't earning an income right now and are struggling to keep the lights on and food on the table. Publicly traded companies will soon cut their guidance and dividends as their sales and revenue collapse. Soon we will find out what companies are strong financially will be able to survive the downturn and what companies will fall into bankruptcy (e.g. Enron in 2001, Bear Stearns in 2008, or Bernie Madoff).

First of all, please do not compare Bitcoin to Equities... there's nothing driving the value of Bitcoin other then Demand.

Second, everyone expects most public companies to cut their guidance and have weaker sales and revenues. Cutting dividends, it depends which companies - Why do you think the market is down 30%?

People act like there will be no Fiscal Policies to help Corporations through this crisis. Banks are way stronger then they were in 2008, they will also help us go through this.
 
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valet

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Everyone and their mother knows we haven't reached peak virus yet here. Everyone knows it is coming eventually. Market just needs to see progress, which they are seeing in other countries...even in Italy.

I think POTUS is going to get the ball rolling, that's why I'm very bullish on the US
Go tell that to all the companies going through a massive liquidity crisis now, all the people that are going to lose their jobs, and the 20% of Americans that have already been laid off due to social distancing. This is a classic bull trap. We've still got some ways to go before we reach bottom...
 
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Fixed to Ruin

Come wit it now!
Feb 28, 2007
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First of all, please do not compare Bitcoin to Equities... there's nothing driving the value of Bitcoin other then Demand.

Second, Everyone expects most public companies to cut their guidance and have weaker sales and revenues. Cutting dividends, it depends which companies. Why do you think the market is down 30%?

My comment was on market psychology. I took bitcoin as it was the most recent example but I could have picked almost anything. Real Estate pre 2008. Gold and Silver from 2001 to 2013. Oil for the last 20 years. Nasdaq during the tech bubble.
 

Thucydides

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Dec 24, 2009
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Dead cat bounce.

Throwing 2 trillion dollars at the problem isn’t going to help much, but it’ll cause a rally that might last a few days , long enough for Trump to get on Twitter proclaiming “Best market rally in the history of the world!” and then 2 days later free fall when USA makes Italy look like Micronesia in comparison to COVID cases. Trump will then blame the Obama administrations fiscal policies and distance himself from the horror that is happening in the USA.

We are not close to the bottom unless USA takes Chinese government measures and locks everything down airtight but that is not going to happen. The bottom could be months away yet.

We are seeing non essential businesses closed but over the weekend beaches in California were packed.

I’m guessing another rally tomorrow when this package gets passed here in the next couple hours.

The accelerating rate of COVID cases in the USA is more than a little concerning .
 
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BahlDeep

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I think there's a huge disconnect here in what is the goal of the stimulus package. The stimulus package isn't just an attempt at throwing money at the problem lol.

The stimulus package is here to bridge the economy from the crisis to eventually having it running at higher capacity.

The accelerating rate of COVID cases coincides with the accelerating rate of tests. THIS HAS BEEN THE SAME TREND FOR EVERY COUNTRY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
 

Fixed to Ruin

Come wit it now!
Feb 28, 2007
23,895
26,166
Grande Prairie, AB
Dead cat bounce.

Throwing 2 trillion dollars at the problem isn’t going to help much, but it’ll cause a rally that might last a few days , long enough for Trump to get on Twitter decrying “Best market rally in the history of the world!” and then 2 days later free fall when USA makes Italy look like Micronesia in comparison to COVID cases. .

I'm begining to come to the opinion that Trump tweets are very solid economic indicators. His 401k tweet was pretty much at the top of the market.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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The accelerating rate of COVID cases coincides with the accelerating rate of tests. THIS HAS BEEN THE SAME TREND FOR EVERY COUNTRY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
True, but it's the rate of acceleration that's concerning. And what we still have no grasp on is the true incidence rate in areas, which means we can't direct resources to the areas that truly need it the most. All we have to go by is "tests actually run" which rely on "think I have symptoms" and "actually got tested" and "test was actually run." Right now, actions are merely reactionary, not proactive.

What's being reported is still lagging what's really going on, perhaps by as much as 5-7 days. If you're in an area that's got a cluster of people infected and half of them don't realize it, 5-7 days is a long time to be running around potentially spreading this virus, meaning that area is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off.
 
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The Crypto Guy

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
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Dead cat bounce.

Throwing 2 trillion dollars at the problem isn’t going to help much, but it’ll cause a rally that might last a few days , long enough for Trump to get on Twitter proclaiming “Best market rally in the history of the world!” and then 2 days later free fall when USA makes Italy look like Micronesia in comparison to COVID cases. Trump will then blame the Obama administrations fiscal policies and distance himself from the horror that is happening in the USA.

We are not close to the bottom unless USA takes Chinese government measures and locks everything down airtight but that is not going to happen. The bottom could be months away yet.

We are seeing non essential businesses closed but over the weekend beaches in California were packed.

I’m guessing another rally tomorrow when this package gets passed here in the next couple hours.

The accelerating rate of COVID cases in the USA is more than a little concerning .
Good post if you had just left out all the trump garbage.
 

Thucydides

Registered User
Dec 24, 2009
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Unemployment numbers in USA 3.3 million. Shattering the record set in 1982 of 695,000.
In 2008 it was 665,000.
 

Thucydides

Registered User
Dec 24, 2009
8,153
845
Unemployment numbers in USA 3.3 million. Shattering the record set in 1982 of 695,000.
In 2008 it was 665,000.
 

Thucydides

Registered User
Dec 24, 2009
8,153
845
Unemployment numbers in USA 3.3 million. Shattering the record set in 1982 of 695,000.
In 2008 it was 665,000.
 
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