The Selke Thread

[Shockmaster]

he didn't win on reputation the year you referenced (2015), he won it by being far and away the best defensive forward in the game.

A lot of subjectivity in that post.

 

[burstnbloom]

A lot of subjectivity in that post.

That's not true. I already posted actual stats. He won 60% of his faceoffs, had one of the most difficult QOC in the league, was the best possession player that played over 50 games and started in the defensive zone 58% of the time. He was quantitatively the best defensive forward in the NHL that year. Your counterargument is "he was only +2." Checkers, chess, etc.

 

[Shockmaster]

That's not true. I already posted actual stats. He won 60% of his faceoffs, had one of the most difficult QOC in the league, was the best possession player that played over 50 games and started in the defensive zone 58% of the time. He was quantitatively the best defensive forward in the NHL that year. Your counterargument is "he was only +2." Checkers, chess, etc.

Ah the smug superiority complex of those who post percentage symbols and think they're an expert never ceases to amaze me.

My point about the award is less to do about +/- and more to do about the lack of consistency in how the "best defensive forward" is judged. Whatever stats are used, whether it be +/-, d-zone faceoffs, or whatever, are seemingly cherry-picked to back-up one's argument.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

A lot of subjectivity in that post.

And what about yours!

 

[MrThomas]

Barkov for sure

 

[Shockmaster]

And what about yours!

What about it?

 

[drewjenks]

Who is your front runner so far?

Personally I have Barkov as the front runner at the moment.

Bergeron might come grab it again if he has a stellar late season.

discuss!

My top 5 front runners used to be:

Tavares
Matthews
Kadri
Gauthier
Lindholm

But then Lindholm got traded ... so now it's:

Tavares
Matthews
Kadri
Gauthier
Petan

With Lindholm & Bergeron as honorable mentions.

 

[burstnbloom]

Ah the smug superiority complex of those who post percentage symbols and think they're an expert never ceases to amaze me.

My point about the award is less to do about +/- and more to do about the lack of consistency in how the "best defensive forward" is judged. Whatever stats are used, whether it be +/-, d-zone faceoffs, or whatever, are seemingly cherry-picked to back-up one's argument.

This is cute. This conversation started with you smugly posting an asinine point and laughing at another poster.

 

[Shockmaster]

This is cute. This conversation started with you smugly posting an asinine point and laughing at another poster.

I was hardly the first person in this threat calling the Selke a reputation award.

 

[Cygnusx1018]

Cizikas should get some consideration as a dark horse candidate

 

[AD1066]

Genuinely torn between Barkov and Bergeron.

 

[izzy]

hate to be a homer but i think ror should at least be nominated. hes been an absolute force in every aspect of the game all season, carrying the offense and the defense. never makes a wrong play, never loses a battle for the puck, constantly strips people ofnthe puck and gets the loose ones.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Crosby is only great defensively if you consider puck control and offense to be a good defense. I'd agree that it is, but that's not what this trophy is about.

This is exactly what it is, but it's a burgeoning problem in the advanced stats community regardless.

Almost every single fancy stat one can look up these days is a possession metric and the biggest driver of possession is being offensively potent, yet tons of people use these metrics as a boon to any particular player's defensive ability. It's silly.

 

[Shockmaster]

This is exactly what it is, but it's a burgeoning problem in the advanced stats community regardless.

Almost every single fancy stat one can look up these days is a possession metric and the biggest driver of possession is being offensively potent, yet tons of people use these metrics as a boon to any particular player's defensive ability. It's silly.

Holding onto the puck is the best defense.

 

[wetcoast]

hate to be a homer but i think ror should at least be nominated. hes been an absolute force in every aspect of the game all season, carrying the offense and the defense. never makes a wrong play, never loses a battle for the puck, constantly strips people ofnthe puck and gets the loose ones.

I agree he should possibly be a finalist but there are about 5 or 6 other guys in the mix as well.

I see Begeron being somewhere between 2-4 with the games missed like his 3rd place finish last year.

 

[Sasso09]

Barkov for sure

No chance this year. His defensive game fell off significantly

 

[jbobell98]

Holding onto the puck is the best defense.

Honestly. If the other team doesnt have the puck they can't score. You put yourself in a position where you don't NEED to make defensive plays nearly as often. You're not making as many defensive plays because you're not giving your opponents opportunities where you would need to make those plays.

 

[Dan Montgomery]

Who is your front runner so far?

Personally I have Barkov as the front runner at the moment.

Bergeron might come grab it again if he has a stellar late season.

discuss!

I'm probably a little biased but I feel that Sean Couturier has set himself apart from the rest of the league. Since the turn of the calendar year he's top 5(I believe 4) in points,while also playing against the other teams top line. Since he's been healthy he is top 10 in pretty much every category on offense and defense.I honestly think he's now on par with Bergeron and Kopitar.

 

[Btown]

Ah the smug superiority complex of those who post percentage symbols and think they're an expert never ceases to amaze me.

My point about the award is less to do about +/- and more to do about the lack of consistency in how the "best defensive forward" is judged. Whatever stats are used, whether it be +/-, d-zone faceoffs, or whatever, are seemingly cherry-picked to back-up one's argument.

Or sometimes not used or viewed at all to “back-up” ones rebuttal with no quantifying evidence or proof of contrary.

 

[Dan Montgomery]

For me Bergeron wins again. Another great season from him, I think he deserves to finish in the top 10 in Hart voting as well.

O'Reilly, Crosby, Couturier probably finish top 5.

I can see that order happening,and live with it. I will say though that if Couturier was healthy all year he'd be the front runner.

 

[bme44]

The only question IMO when it comes to the Selke is has Bergeron played enough games? It is Bergeron's if he has played enough games. Barkov would be my second choice

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

I'm probably a little biased but I feel that Sean Couturier has set himself apart from the rest of the league. Since the turn of the calendar year he's top 5(I believe 4) in points,while also playing against the other teams top line. Since he's been healthy he is top 10 in pretty much every category on offense and defense.I honestly think he's now on par with Bergeron and Kopitar.

kopitar.... this year. I cancelled all what you explained before.

 

[mikeyfan]

If the Selke is for the Best Defensive Forward then I would say Barkov, RNH, and Larkin should not be considered and here is why:

Barkov - +/- = -12, he has 0 SH goals
RNH - +/- = -11, 1 SH goal
Larkin - +/- = -11, 2 SH goals

Those whose name I see most with positive stats would be:

Stone - +/- = +17, 1 SH goal
Bergeron - +/- = 19, 3 SH goals

And a name that won't be considered but in my mind should be

Sebastien Aho - +/- = +25, 4 SH goals, (and yes most of the season he has played against the other teams top lines especially at home when the Canes have the last change.

 

[JoVel]

If the Selke is for the Best Defensive Forward then I would say Barkov, RNH, and Larkin should not be considered and here is why:

Barkov - +/- = -12, he has 0 SH goals
RNH - +/- = -11, 1 SH goal
Larkin - +/- = -11, 2 SH goals

Those whose name I see most with positive stats would be:

Stone - +/- = +17, 1 SH goal
Bergeron - +/- = 19, 3 SH goals

And a name that won't be considered but in my mind should be

Sebastien Aho - +/- = +25, 4 SH goals, (and yes most of the season he has played against the other teams top lines especially at home when the Canes have the last change.

So the best defensive forwards are determined by +/- and shorthander goals? Ok then.

 

[mikeyfan]

So the best defensive forwards are determined by +/- and shorthander goals? Ok then.

If +/- is based on goals scored while you are on the ice, then how can someone who has a negative +/- be considered a shut down forward? You can find many forwards who play against another teams top line with a negative +/- does that mean they are all shut down forwards?

I threw out the SH goals because that means they are playing against the best teams forwards on the PK and they are not only shutting down the PP but they are creating scoring scoring against those forwards. So I would consider that shutting down a teams top forward.