The ROR Beatification Station and Exclusion Zone (Discussion of ROR trade goes here!) Part 2

[sabrebuild]

Honest question:
Has there been a trade in recent years that has a comparable negative impact as the ROR trade had on the Sabres?
And as a follow up:
Did the GM retain his job for longer than 2 years after said trade?

The easy answer is Hall for Larson and Chia got fired quick. But Larson has been a solid contributor in a position of need and Hall was only great for one year. Ehh.

But in terms of trash for quality... Its been a minute.

 

[Jim Carr's Rug]

The easy answer is Hall for Larson and Chia got fired quick. But Larson has been a solid contributor in a position of need and Hall was only great for one year. Ehh.

But in terms of trash for quality... Its been a minute.

Right, but the Oilers still had/have some quality top 6 and Larson has been of value on the blueline.
The return value and negative impact are way worse on Buffalo's end. I can't think of another professional GM who has made such a negatively impactful move and retained his job.
Bad trades are one thing. Crippling trades are another.
Giving away a top flight center for almost nothing and leaving a gaping, unfillable hole is organizationally crippling.

 

[Icicle]

Right, but the Oilers still had/have some quality top 6 and Larson has been of value on the blueline.
The return value and negative impact are way worse on Buffalo's end. I can't think of another professional GM who has made such a negatively impactful move and retained his job.
Bad trades are one thing. Crippling trades are another.
Giving away a top flight center for almost nothing and leaving a gaping, unfillable hole is organizationally crippling.

It’s almost as-if the guy who would fire Botterill is the one who forced him to trade the player away............

 

[debaser66]

Did he really make a chart that required us to 1) buyout Okposo 2) Trade away Risto+McCabe for picks only and 3) Depend on the miracle trades of Jokiharju and the Dahlin lottery pick from happening (which wouldn't have been the case without trading away ROR) just to fit Skinner+ROR under the cap for a couple of years? And he's saying this disproves the fantasy? Oooweee, the bar of reality has been set lower than video game GM standards.

I don't know from which reality your post comes from trying to manufacture a truth that is beyond the facts very well documented to everyone.
Please don't spread lies.

 

[Paxon]

Oh right, Buffalo sucked bad enough to get Dahlin with ROR.... That franchise veteran presence he provided

Compounding your embarassing previous post with this irrational argument isn't really working

 

[Bendium]

As I recall it was Jack who was kind of instrumental in getting Murray/Bylsma canned, which opened the door for Botterill/Housley. Careful what you wish for, Jack.

He also didn't get along with ROR and I am sure that played into that issue as well. Sam being stuck on his line all year instead of helping out other lines feels like something he may have a hand in as well. As great as he has been, he is not blameless in where we are. He is still a very young captain learning to lead the room.

 

[Jim Bob]

He also didn't get along with ROR and I am sure that played into that issue as well. Sam being stuck on his line all year instead of helping out other lines feels like something he may have a hand in as well. As great as he has been, he is not blameless in where we are. He is still a very young captain learning to lead the room.

Fake news.

Eichel denies rumors of friction with O'Reilly

Sabres look for ways to improve their league-worst faceoff...

Eichel said he skated a couple times over the summer with O’Reilly and spoke with him and others a bit about finding ways to improve. O’Reilly set the NHL record for faceoffs taken during his final season in Buffalo. If you’re going to learn more tricks of the trade, O’Reilly was the right person to ask.

 

[Bendium]

Fake news.

Eichel denies rumors of friction with O'Reilly

Sabres look for ways to improve their league-worst faceoff...

Your correct in that my statement doesn't quite get to what I was trying to say. They didn't hate each other.....however, they both had the same chip on their shoulder and were competing against each other for who's team it was going to be.

https://thehockeywriters.com/buffalo-sabres-next-captain-eichel-or-oreilly/

Jack has always been trying to prove he was better than McDavid. Its ego. Its not a bad thing, it is a great motivator. McDavid had already been named captain, and Jack wanted to keep up. I am sure it was discussed as part of his contract negotiation.

ROR wanted out of Colorado because he wanted a bigger commitment from the team and a leadership role.
Ryan O'Reilly Finding the Home in Buffalo He Never Found in Colorado
He made it clear when he came here he was looking for a long term commitment as the leader of this team. The Sabres gave him the contractual commitment and ROR was expecting the team to be his after Gionta. The Sabres then did the same thing Colorado did and when the time came they hedged their bet and failed to commit, because they had their generational talent in Eichel who wanted the team to be his.

Jack was competing against ROR....not with him. The Sabres should have just given ROR the captaincy at the start of the 2017-2018 season and he would have killed himself trying to prove them right instead of losing his love for the game. Its not Jack's fault management let him hold them hostage, but he is not blameless.

 

[wnysupport]

Your correct in that my statement doesn't quite get to what I was trying to say. They didn't hate each other.....however, they both had the same chip on their shoulder and were competing against each other for who's team it was going to be.

https://thehockeywriters.com/buffalo-sabres-next-captain-eichel-or-oreilly/

Jack has always been trying to prove he was better than McDavid. Its ego. Its not a bad thing, it is a great motivator. McDavid had already been named captain, and Jack wanted to keep up. I am sure it was discussed as part of his contract negotiation.

ROR wanted out of Colorado because he wanted a bigger commitment from the team and a leadership role.
Ryan O'Reilly Finding the Home in Buffalo He Never Found in Colorado
He made it clear when he came here he was looking for a long term commitment as the leader of this team. The Sabres gave him the contractual commitment and ROR was expecting the team to be his after Gionta. The Sabres then did the same thing Colorado did and when the time came they hedged their bet and failed to commit, because they had their generational talent in Eichel who wanted the team to be his.

Jack was competing against ROR....not with him. The Sabres should have just given ROR the captaincy at the start of the 2017-2018 season and he would have killed himself trying to prove them right instead of losing his love for the game. Its not Jack's fault management let him hold them hostage, but he is not blameless.

This sounds like a whole lot of opinion, compared to the rebuttal which are facts from the players themselves....

 

[Jim Bob]

Your correct in that my statement doesn't quite get to what I was trying to say. They didn't hate each other.....however, they both had the same chip on their shoulder and were competing against each other for who's team it was going to be.

https://thehockeywriters.com/buffalo-sabres-next-captain-eichel-or-oreilly/

Jack has always been trying to prove he was better than McDavid. Its ego. Its not a bad thing, it is a great motivator. McDavid had already been named captain, and Jack wanted to keep up. I am sure it was discussed as part of his contract negotiation.

ROR wanted out of Colorado because he wanted a bigger commitment from the team and a leadership role.
Ryan O'Reilly Finding the Home in Buffalo He Never Found in Colorado
He made it clear when he came here he was looking for a long term commitment as the leader of this team. The Sabres gave him the contractual commitment and ROR was expecting the team to be his after Gionta. The Sabres then did the same thing Colorado did and when the time came they hedged their bet and failed to commit, because they had their generational talent in Eichel who wanted the team to be his.

Jack was competing against ROR....not with him. The Sabres should have just given ROR the captaincy at the start of the 2017-2018 season and he would have killed himself trying to prove them right instead of losing his love for the game. Its not Jack's fault management let him hold them hostage, but he is not blameless.

ROR pointed to a lack of a long term contract in Colorado as the big issue. Murray gave him that long contract here. And as such, ROR felt like he could be a bigger leader here.

Neither ROR nor Eichel has ever said there was friction over the captaincy. That has all been speculation. And from what the players have said, most, if not all, of that speculation was wrong.

We will probably never know the full story of why Botterill traded ROR and why he took the package from St Louis that he did.

So, in the absence of the real story, people will continue to speculate.

Just look at Kapanen getting scratched on Saturday. All sorts of people jumped to conclusions that he was getting traded because their was a lack of information.

And at the end of the day, he wasn't scratched because of a trade but because of the fact that he was late and it was a disciplinary healthy scratch.

 

[debaser66]

Your correct in that my statement doesn't quite get to what I was trying to say. They didn't hate each other.....however, they both had the same chip on their shoulder and were competing against each other for who's team it was going to be.

https://thehockeywriters.com/buffalo-sabres-next-captain-eichel-or-oreilly/

Jack has always been trying to prove he was better than McDavid. Its ego. Its not a bad thing, it is a great motivator. McDavid had already been named captain, and Jack wanted to keep up. I am sure it was discussed as part of his contract negotiation.

ROR wanted out of Colorado because he wanted a bigger commitment from the team and a leadership role.
Ryan O'Reilly Finding the Home in Buffalo He Never Found in Colorado
He made it clear when he came here he was looking for a long term commitment as the leader of this team. The Sabres gave him the contractual commitment and ROR was expecting the team to be his after Gionta. The Sabres then did the same thing Colorado did and when the time came they hedged their bet and failed to commit, because they had their generational talent in Eichel who wanted the team to be his.

Jack was competing against ROR....not with him. The Sabres should have just given ROR the captaincy at the start of the 2017-2018 season and he would have killed himself trying to prove them right instead of losing his love for the game. Its not Jack's fault management let him hold them hostage, but he is not blameless.

I heard he lost his love for the captaincy

 

[sabrebuild]

Your correct in that my statement doesn't quite get to what I was trying to say. They didn't hate each other.....however, they both had the same chip on their shoulder and were competing against each other for who's team it was going to be.

https://thehockeywriters.com/buffalo-sabres-next-captain-eichel-or-oreilly/

Jack has always been trying to prove he was better than McDavid. Its ego. Its not a bad thing, it is a great motivator. McDavid had already been named captain, and Jack wanted to keep up. I am sure it was discussed as part of his contract negotiation.

ROR wanted out of Colorado because he wanted a bigger commitment from the team and a leadership role.
Ryan O'Reilly Finding the Home in Buffalo He Never Found in Colorado
He made it clear when he came here he was looking for a long term commitment as the leader of this team. The Sabres gave him the contractual commitment and ROR was expecting the team to be his after Gionta. The Sabres then did the same thing Colorado did and when the time came they hedged their bet and failed to commit, because they had their generational talent in Eichel who wanted the team to be his.

Jack was competing against ROR....not with him. The Sabres should have just given ROR the captaincy at the start of the 2017-2018 season and he would have killed himself trying to prove them right instead of losing his love for the game. Its not Jack's fault management let him hold them hostage, but he is not blameless.

Competing for what? Ice time? Nope. Role? Nope.

Captaincy? Please. That was always going to Eichel.

I guarantee that it wasn't discussed as a part of his contract.

There's just no smoke or fire to there being significant issues between Eichel and O'Reilly.

These expansive stories are all about coming up with a reason that stupid trade occurred.

 

[sabrebuild]

I heard he lost his love for the captaincy

Love is all that matters.

 

[debaser66]

Competing for what? Ice time? Nope. Role? Nope.

Captaincy? Please. That was always going to Eichel.

I guarantee that it wasn't discussed as a part of his contract.

There's just no smoke or fire to there being significant issues between Eichel and O'Reilly.

These expansive stories are all about coming up with a reason that stupid trade occurred.

Some have been circulating before
Like fist gate
Weren't there allready trade rumors before the TDL '18?

 

[Chainshot]

 

[debaser66]

Love is all that matters.

Love is the key(player)

 

[SabresFan26]

It’s almost as-if the guy who would fire Botterill is the one who forced him to trade the player away............

That comment, I’ll see what the Pegulas want to do at the deadline is not encouraging

 

[sabrebuild]

F U chain. Nothing is fair.

 

[sabrebuild]

Some have been circulating before
Like fist gate
Weren't there allready trade rumors before the TDL '18?

Yes and yes.

Same way several, but the last die hards, took about 15 descending paths from win/win caused by a cancer to finally holy crap Botts might not know what he is doing.

 

[OkimLom]

Some have been circulating before
Like fist gate
Weren't there allready trade rumors before the TDL '18?

ah yes, Fist Gate. Something created by fans and perpetuated by the media afterwards. The same media that carried the water for the Buffalo Sabres to soften the blow of the trade of ROR.

 

[debaser66]

I guess JB was irritated what name he should put on the back of the Jersey
Robert Thomas, Thomas Robert
No clear surname
Not good enough

 

[The Red Helmet]

This hurts.

 

[joshjull]

Honest question:
Has there been a trade in recent years that has a comparable negative impact as the ROR trade had on the Sabres?
And as a follow up:
Did the GM retain his job for longer than 2 years after said trade?

Define negative impact? Are we talking taking a dip (more accurately for us delay the playoffs) after losing a talent like that? Or are we talking the more melodramatic assertion of 5+ years in the abyss?

The Avs also traded ROR and were made worse by it. Nor were any of the players involved going to replace him (Zadorov, Grigorenko, Compher, 2015 st/31st overall (AJ Greer). This was the 2nd offseason in a row the Avs lost/moved on from a key player. Stastny left the year before in free agency.

Avs missed the playoffs the two seasons after trading ROR as we are now. Then made the playoffs in the 3rd season after the trade. Even moved out Duchene at the start of that playoff season. Which shows moving on from talent like Stastny, ROR and Duchene in trades (good or bad) or free agency for nothing isn’t what dooms a team. Its what else they do or don’t do to keep shaping their team after.


The trade isn’t what will doom us. Its the moves Botterill has made, or more accurately hasn’t made, that will.

 

[Jim Carr's Rug]

Define negative impact? Are we talking taking a dip (more accurately for us delay the playoffs) after losing a talent like that? Or are we talking the more melodramatic assertion of 5+ years in the abyss?

The Avs also traded ROR and were made worse by it. Nor were any of the players involved going to replace him (Zadorov, Grigorenko, Compher, 2015 st/31st overall (AJ Greer). This was the 2nd offseason in a row the Avs lost/moved on from a key player. Stastny left the year before in free agency.

Avs missed the playoffs the two seasons after trading ROR as we are now. Then made the playoffs in the 3rd season after the trade. Even moved out Duchene at the start of that playoff season. Which shows moving on from talent like Stastny, ROR and Duchene in trades (good or bad) or free agency for nothing isn’t what dooms a team. Its what else they do or don’t do to keep shaping their team after.


The trade isn’t what will doom us. Its the moves Botterill has made, or more accurately hasn’t made, that will.

Here's how i'll define the negative impact spread across 4 larger facets:

1. Created a Hole at 2C
A Top-6 center, under contract in his prime, is one of the most valuable assets in the NHL and such a driver for on-ice production. Removing a Top-6 center without being able to immediately and adequately fill the roster spot has been such a large contributing factor to the losing the past two seasons.

2. Impact on Remaining Players
Created a giant hole in the lineup that pushed several players out of their ideal roles and playing above their heads. Largest cumulative impact was the disturbed development of Casey Mittelstadt & Tage Thompson. We can also assume that not having a solid second line had negative impact on the trade value of all Buffalo defenseman, which we can assume are being shopped to try and fill that Top-6 Center hole.

3. Misuse of Cap Space
By taking on Sobotka (and lesser extent Berglund), JB was not able to capitalize on cleared cap space from moving O'Reilly. Cap space is an asset and allows for transnational flexibility. He basically made a bad move in terms of value-in vs value-out AND handcuffed himself. I thought not paying ROR was one of the big reasons for moving him? But paying Sobotka and Berglund was a good idea?? wtf.

4. Extended the Losing
As you stated, trading out one of their best players made the team worse in terms of wins and losses. Tag that onto prior years of losing, the trade has likely compounded the losing mentality and fragility in the lockerrom and fanbase (that's gotta be some kind of a thing, right?).

I hear you that the Avs survived trading ROR, but our extenuating circumstances and return were much worse.
And I'm not arguing that this trade, on it's face, can't be overcome. I just can't think of a worse move for any organization than the ROR to St Louis deal. A competent GM, along with his professional scouting staff, should have seen this coming and pushed back on any orders from higher up (if they did get marching orders from Pegulla).

 

[sabrebuild]

Here's how i'll define the negative impact spread across 4 larger facets:

1. Created a Hole at 2C
A Top-6 center, under contract in his prime, is one of the most valuable assets in the NHL and such a driver for on-ice production. Removing a Top-6 center without being able to immediately and adequately fill the roster spot has been such a large contributing factor to the losing the past two seasons.

2. Impact on Remaining Players
Created a giant hole in the lineup that pushed several players out of their ideal roles and playing above their heads. Largest cumulative impact was the disturbed development of Casey Mittelstadt & Tage Thompson. We can also assume that not having a solid second line had negative impact on the trade value of all Buffalo defenseman, which we can assume are being shopped to try and fill that Top-6 Center hole.

3. Misuse of Cap Space
By taking on Sobotka (and lesser extent Berglund), JB was not able to capitalize on cleared cap space from moving O'Reilly. Cap space is an asset and allows for transnational flexibility. He basically made a bad move in terms of value-in vs value-out AND handcuffed himself. I thought not paying ROR was one of the big reasons for moving him? But paying Sobotka and Berglund was a good idea?? wtf.

4. Extended the Losing
As you stated, trading out one of their best players made the team worse in terms of wins and losses. Tag that onto prior years of losing, the trade has likely compounded the losing mentality and fragility in the lockerrom and fanbase (that's gotta be some kind of a thing, right?).

I hear you that the Avs survived trading ROR, but our extenuating circumstances and return were much worse.
And I'm not arguing that this trade, on it's face, can't be overcome. I just can't think of a worse move for any organization than the ROR to St Louis deal. A competent GM, along with his professional scouting staff, should have seen this coming and pushed back on any orders from higher up (if they did get marching orders from Pegulla).

Very well said.

The distinction between the Colorado situation and Buffalo is very obvious for anyone reasonably looking at and understanding how league.

Beyond the timing and personalities of why moves were being made, when Colorado made moves like O'Reilly and Duchene, they accomplished two legitimate things. They actually dumped salary and took back almost no contracts with term or any serious cap hits, and they received a boatload of picks and prospects, not dime a dozen veteran bums. Because they were not trading for trash they had cap space available for a somewhat viable replacement in Soderberg.

And even then, with those two wise trades, that were about as good as it gets for a team that has minimal leverage to trade star players, they still sucked. An 82 poont season, which got Murray canned, a 48 point season, worse than the tank years. And then finally in year three after trading O'Reilly, they get a 40 point jump by Mackinnon, over ppg by rookie Rantanen and lots of youths, from good trades, that all performed out their butts, to become a power house, 90ish point team. Thats two years of damage, and then some incredible luck, just to get back to being a wild card or middle of the pack team. This year, 5th season since moving O'Reilly, the Avalanche appear to be a top 4 team in the West.

This idea that Jj keeps pushing that losing a great player for nothing but cap hits and unlikely nhlers is not damaging is flabbergasting.

Great job breaking it down.