The Rebuild/Tank Related GDT Thread #17, currently 6th. worst team.

[The Winter Soldier]

He might very well be lowering expectations. I can't say anything for his reasons to such, I'm sure a Hockey Mentalist such as yourself is more qualified for that.

What I do know is that we have every reason to lower expectations. This team as it is will never be anything but a bubble team at best. A quick fix rebuild could make this team a playoff team with significant flaws. For anything else, a longer rebuild is needed.

It needed to be brought up. Shanahan has everyone bought into losing the next couple of years, that someone like me needed to remind us Leafs fans of other teams turning it around in a very short time.

He is managing and lowering expectations, and he did it so easily with almost everyone here buying into it. Without even realizing he was playing Leafs fans for fools, that it is okay to expect to lose the next 3,4,5 years.

What other fanbase would be okay with losing?

 

[SprDaVE]

It needed to be brought up. Shanahan has everyone bought into losing the next couple of years, that someone like me needed to remind us Leafs fans of other teams turning it around in a very short time.

He is managing and lowering expectations, and he did it so easily with almost everyone here buying into it. Without even realizing he was playing Leafs fans for fools, that it is okay to expect to lose the next 3,4,5 years.

What other fanbase would be okay with losing?

It's not about being OK to lose. It's about rebuilding the core and building the team the right way.

It means stripping down the core of the team, it means actually using the draft as a means to build your core not just for a quick fix every year and then go from there. No more of this trading for a Bolland or Versteeg player to plug in holes. This means not signing a Clarkson player because you need 'truculence' and 'leadership'. No more trading 2nd round picks every single year.

You're were pushing for draft picks draft picks and draft picks just a couple weeks ago. You're the one that was saying to build with through draft. This is what it entails when you rebuild a team that's been poorly built with so many quick fixes. Burke and Nonis have unfortunately not been able to retool and use quick fixes to build a team anywhere near enough to stay out of the basement.

The reality of this means likely to be bad while the transition happens. It won't be on purpose, but it has to be done. This is about changing the culture of how the Leafs should be built, how they should play and finally having a perennial contender once the foundation is built up.

The Leafs will try to be competitive, just like any team in the NHL, but it's not going to be done with short cuts and idiotic UFA signings. It will be done the way it should have been done over 10 years ago. Through drafting, developing and building a core that then you can surround them with signing, trades and other means.

As if I needed to explain this to a "Hockey Mentalist". Jesus christ...

 

[The Winter Soldier]

It's not about being OK to lose. It's about rebuilding the core and building the team the right way.

It means stripping down the core of the team, it means actually using the draft as a means to build your core not just for a quick fix every year and then go from there. No more of this trading for a Bolland or Versteeg player to plug in holes. This means not signing a Clarkson player because you need 'truculence' and 'leadership'. No more trading 2nd round picks every single year.

You're were pushing for draft picks draft picks and draft picks just a couple weeks ago. You're the one that was saying to build with through draft. This is what it entails when you rebuild a team that's been poorly built with so many quick fixes. Burke and Nonis have unfortunately not been able to retool and use quick fixes to build a team anywhere near enough to stay out of the basement.

The reality of this means likely to be bad while the transition happens. It won't be on purpose, but it has to be done. This is about changing the culture of how the Leafs should be built, how they should play and finally having a perennial contender once the foundation is built up.

As if I needed to explain this to a "Hockey Mentalist". Jesus christ...

Stripping down the core, patient rebuild, build by draft, nice catch phrases. Shanahan has got you buying into years of losing quite easily. How did Montreal, Nashville, NY Isles, go from 27th and 28th to 1st in 2 short years?

 

[Fogelhund]

It's not about being OK to lose. It's about rebuilding the core and building the team the right way.

It means stripping down the core of the team, it means actually using the draft as a means to build your core not just for a quick fix every year and then go from there. No more of this trading for a Bolland or Versteeg player to plug in holes. This means not signing a Clarkson player because you need 'truculence' and 'leadership'. No more trading 2nd round picks every single year.

You're were pushing for draft picks draft picks and draft picks just a couple weeks ago. You're the one that was saying to build with through draft. This is what it entails when you rebuild a team that's been poorly built with so many quick fixes. Burke and Nonis have unfortunately not been able to retool and use quick fixes to build a team anywhere near enough to stay out of the basement.

The reality of this means likely to be bad while the transition happens. It won't be on purpose, but it has to be done. This is about changing the culture of how the Leafs should be built, how they should play and finally having a perennial contender once the foundation is built up.

The Leafs will try to be competitive, just like any team in the NHL, but it's not going to be done with short cuts and idiotic UFA signings. It will be done the way it should have been done over 10 years ago. Through drafting, developing and building a core that then you can surround them with signing, trades and other means.

As if I needed to explain this to a "Hockey Mentalist". Jesus christ...

Agree 100%... we need patience, time and some luck.. actually, a lot of luck.

Hope we can get lucky in a lottery, or that later picks outperform draft expectations, and that somewhere in the late first, or second round, we can find a gem of a #1 D man, where is seems so many of the current great D men are found. The more late 1st and 2nd round picks we can get, and just keep picking guys, the more picks you have, the odds are greater of getting lucky.

 

[SprDaVE]

Stripping down the core, patient rebuild, build by draft, nice catch phrases. Shanahan has got you buying into years of losing quite easily. How did Montreal, Nashville go from 27th and 28th to 1st in 2 short years?

I don't really care about Montreal and Nashville, but their teams were built the right way and they were lucky enough not to have 2 management teams in a row that were completely useless and idiotic. Also, both of those teams have Vezina trophy goaltenders and Norris trophy defenders on their team... we have a top 10 offensive player... and that's about it. Do you want to know how Montreal and Nashville acquired their Vezina and Norris trophy players?

It isn't about catch phrases here. It's about a new era. This core right now has been useless for 5 years, no matter how many pieces around them moved around. It's time for change. That means scrapping the previous mentality and going with another direction.

I'm not sure what you want from this management team. It looks like you wouldn't be happy with anything they would have said. If they said they won't rebuild and would aim for the playoffs next year, you'd be crying about shortcuts and that they weren't built the right way. You're just whining and complaining without providing anything they should be doing instead.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Oh my. I don't know if certain discussions in this thread are humorous or just really, really sad.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I don't really care about Montreal and Nashville, but their teams were built the right way and they were lucky enough not to have 2 management 2 teams in a row that were completely useless and idiotic.

It isn't about catch phrases here. It's about a new era. This core right now has been useless for 5 years, no matter how many pieces around them moved around. It's time for change.

I'm not sure what you want from this management team. It looks like you wouldn't be happy with anything they would have said. If they said they won't rebuild and would aim for the playoffs next year, you'd be crying about shortcuts and that they weren't built the right way.

What I'm reading here is that al ot of people are looking for anything to cry about.

Yeah, what Shanahan is saying is that we no longer will trade picks to add a player like Bolland if the team needs a bottom six player with leadership but rather make sure we have enough of that kind of players in the system so we can promote from within. We will not start the next couple of seasons trying to fill every roster spot with a player close to, or in his prime to try and make the playoffs.

 

[Mess]

It needed to be brought up. Shanahan has everyone bought into losing the next couple of years, that someone like me needed to remind us Leafs fans of other teams turning it around in a very short time.

He is managing and lowering expectations, and he did it so easily with almost everyone here buying into it. Without even realizing he was playing Leafs fans for fools, that it is okay to expect to lose the next 3,4,5 years.

What other fanbase would be okay with losing?

I think Shanny is saying this mess he inherited has been created over years of mistakes and that its going to take time both to undo this and tear it down and then building it back up the right way.

Ideally we could turn the clock back to the "clearing the slate" team going back 7 years and redo this last failed rebuild and start again from that point. But we can't and as such we have to take two steps back before we can start moving forward again.

That task is daunting and will take time and patience as there are no shortcuts and no false expectation that this isn't going to be painful as far as positive results are concerned in the standings.

 

[Durrr]

Oh my. I don't know if certain discussions in this thread are humorous or just really, really sad.

I think everyone knows the answer except the people actually involved in them.

 

[SprDaVE]

Yeah, what Shanahan is saying is that we no longer will trade picks to add a player like Bolland if the team needs a bottom six player with leadership but rather make sure we have enough of that kind of players in the system so we can promote from within. We will not start the next couple of seasons trying to fill every roster spot with a player close to, or in his prime to try and make the playoffs.

Not sure what to expect but it's pretty clear the emphasis will be building a core through the draft first and foremost.

We have the largest amateur scouting groups in the NHL and we rarely ever had more then one or two top 90 picks in most drafts. That's pathetic, especially as a team that's been unable to even clinch the playoffs.

Trading picks for a player like Holland or even Bernier is at least respectable and makes sort of sense, even if you're a rebuilding team... but using them on Bolland? *sigh*

 

[ryno23]

This rebuild doesn't have to be 5-9 years long. They already have a few pieces in place and really it is about drafting better and not giving up the 2nd round picks for guys like Bolland and move your UFA's to recoup picks. Drafting better in all 7 rounds and hitting on a few late picks.

Right now you have

Reilly
Nylander
Kadri
Gauthier
Connor Brown
1st pick in 2015 (ours plus NASH)
Bernier (not sold 100%)
Gardiner (not sold 100 %)

Then you have the kids on the Marlies where you will have to hit on a few of them to provide low cost depth. If any of these players can play top 6 or top 4 D then you have found a diamond in the rough and helps the rebuild quite a lot.

Leivo
Grandberg
Percy
Leipsic
Valiev
Andreas Johnson
Bibeau


So now with the Lupul, Bozak, Kessel, Phaneuf deals if you can bring in at least 2 blue chippers and a couple of high picks then you are really moving it along

Hopefully we can take advantage of the cap staying the same to take on some bad contracts in return for some very good assets.

So just because it is a rebuild you want to win every game and create a winning culture with the young kids....let them play and see how they do. If they fight for a playoff spot great it is valuable experience. So we end up drafting 10-15 next year we scout well and hit on a player in that range.

Edm tanked for a few years and now you can see they can't get themselves out of the losing culture. Teach winning from day 1 and the goal is still playoffs but if the talent is lacking that will take care of itself in the standings.

Just stop the trading for bandaid solutions which I think this management group understands.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Oh my. I don't know if certain discussions in this thread are humorous or just really, really sad.

oh, trust me Nith. it is totally both. I can't even go get breakfast, because it's like watching a soap opera develop before my very eyes. holy moses.

 

[Reddaye]

Not sure what to expect but it's pretty clear the emphasis will be building a core through the draft first and foremost.

We have the largest amateur scouting groups in the NHL and we rarely ever had more then one or two top 90 picks in most drafts. That's pathetic, especially as a team that's been unable to even clinch the playoffs.

Trading picks for a player like Holland or even Bernier is at least respectable and makes sort of sense, even if you're a rebuilding team... but using them on Bolland? *sigh*

People need to remember Bolland was traded for in the off season after our play off run and the game 7 collapse. When many felt the team was finally beginning to trend upwards. What we lacked was leadership and winning experience.

Dave Bolland was brought in to help supplement what we had, and theoretically improve it. The Leafs looked to be moving out of the "rebuilding phase" and towards the winning phase.

Of course now in hindsight it didn't work out at pretty much any level, but at the time the Bolland trade made more sense.

 

[Fogelhund]

This rebuild doesn't have to be 5-9 years long. They already have a few pieces in place and really it is about drafting better and not giving up the 2nd round picks for guys like Bolland and move your UFA's to recoup picks. Drafting better in all 7 rounds and hitting on a few late picks.

Right now you have

Reilly
Nylander
Kadri
Gauthier
Connor Brown
1st pick in 2015 (ours plus NASH)
Bernier (not sold 100%)
Gardiner (not sold 100 %)

Then you have the kids on the Marlies where you will have to hit on a few of them to provide low cost depth. If any of these players can play top 6 or top 4 D then you have found a diamond in the rough and helps the rebuild quite a lot.

Leivo
Grandberg
Percy
Leipsic
Valiev
Andreas Johnson
Bibeau


So now with the Lupul, Bozak, Kessel, Phaneuf deals if you can bring in at least 2 blue chippers and a couple of high picks then you are really moving it along

Hopefully we can take advantage of the cap staying the same to take on some bad contracts in return for some very good assets.

So just because it is a rebuild you want to win every game and create a winning culture with the young kids....let them play and see how they do. If they fight for a playoff spot great it is valuable experience. So we end up drafting 10-15 next year we scout well and hit on a player in that range.

Edm tanked for a few years and now you can see they can't get themselves out of the losing culture. Teach winning from day 1 and the goal is still playoffs but if the talent is lacking that will take care of itself in the standings.

Just stop the trading for bandaid solutions which I think this management group understands.

I would add in Loov and Holland... maybe a few others can turn into bottom six forwards too...

 

[Daisy Jane]

I defer to Jamie Noodles McClellan. he is saying that the fan base should expect a 2 ELC cycle rebuild at the bare minimum. you don't know who develops when/where/why/how, you don't know if something happens, and you have to trade, someone might get sick (like we've had that one before, twice, if I remember).

I will also point out that the gold standard of teams (LA and Chicago) had a 3 ELC cycle rebuild.

 

[Faltorvo]

Will it really ? Anyone who is still here after the start of the Burke era until now has already been through plenty. I really don't think an actual rebuild is going to break them. You have to have a heck of a lot more patience to endure what we just went through.

now thats a fact

selling false hope to the kids and ignorant , fooling them into thinking this was a bubble playoff team, where anything can happen once in

6 years of that BS hell, compared to the straight up unvarnished truth of it.

dealing with a "rebuild, via the draft" will be a utter cake walk.

 

[Durrr]

Stripping down the core, patient rebuild, build by draft, nice catch phrases. Shanahan has got you buying into years of losing quite easily. How did Montreal, Nashville, NY Isles, go from 27th and 28th to 1st in 2 short years?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe it has something to do with drafting and developing elite talent, and then surrounding that talent with depth?

Tavares, Strome, Subban, Price, Weber, Forsberg just to name a few. Many of these players were drafted years before their teams were able to make the jump from basement dweller to competitor, so saying "two short years" really doesn't cut it for even one of those teams.

Also, Nashville finished that low because Rinne was out for an entire season almost. They were able to draft Jones and restock the team with high end talent in a short time because they already had depth developing and players in key positions.

 

[selltrade]

This rebuild doesn't have to be 5-9 years long. They already have a few pieces in place and really it is about drafting better and not giving up the 2nd round picks for guys like Bolland and move your UFA's to recoup picks. Drafting better in all 7 rounds and hitting on a few late picks.

Right now you have

Reilly
Nylander
Kadri
Gauthier
Connor Brown
1st pick in 2015 (ours plus NASH)
Bernier (not sold 100%)
Gardiner (not sold 100 %)

Then you have the kids on the Marlies where you will have to hit on a few of them to provide low cost depth. If any of these players can play top 6 or top 4 D then you have found a diamond in the rough and helps the rebuild quite a lot.

Leivo
Grandberg
Percy
Leipsic
Valiev
Andreas Johnson
Bibeau


So now with the Lupul, Bozak, Kessel, Phaneuf deals if you can bring in at least 2 blue chippers and a couple of high picks then you are really moving it along

Hopefully we can take advantage of the cap staying the same to take on some bad contracts in return for some very good assets.

So just because it is a rebuild you want to win every game and create a winning culture with the young kids....let them play and see how they do. If they fight for a playoff spot great it is valuable experience. So we end up drafting 10-15 next year we scout well and hit on a player in that range.

Edm tanked for a few years and now you can see they can't get themselves out of the losing culture. Teach winning from day 1 and the goal is still playoffs but if the talent is lacking that will take care of itself in the standings.

Just stop the trading for bandaid solutions which I think this management group understands.

JVR says hello, and add Loov and Nilsson to your kids list.

 

[Faltorvo]

I think Shanny is saying this mess he inherited has been created over years of mistakes and that its going to take time both to undo this and tear it down and then building it back up the right way.

Ideally we could turn the clock back to the "clearing the slate" team going back 7 years and redo this last failed rebuild and start again from that point. But we can't and as such we have to take two steps back before we can start moving forward again.

That task is daunting and will take time and patience as there are no shortcuts and no false expectation that this isn't going to be painful as far as positive results are concerned in the standings.

the part that the mental one is glossing over is

"who are we losing with"?

will it be the same cap maxed team lead by neon,fat fill,bozo, lupus? That would be utterly and totally unacceptable and he would be right, we got bait and switched, sold out, conned.


or are we losing with kids, short term TD flippable UFAs and the returns from shipping out the failed 4 , that is acceptable losing in my books and my hopes of what shanny is trying to sell us.

 

[Cor]

Add in Ryan Rupert to the kids list as well.

I've been saying since we drafted him, he's going to be an NHL'er for us. Plays a great, complete game.

Look at how well he has done as a rookie in the AHL. His game translates very well at every level.

 

[613Leafer]

This rebuild doesn't have to be 5-9 years long. They already have a few pieces in place and really it is about drafting better and not giving up the 2nd round picks for guys like Bolland and move your UFA's to recoup picks. Drafting better in all 7 rounds and hitting on a few late picks.

Right now you have

Reilly
Nylander
Kadri
Gauthier
Connor Brown
1st pick in 2015 (ours plus NASH)
Bernier (not sold 100%)
Gardiner (not sold 100 %)

Then you have the kids on the Marlies where you will have to hit on a few of them to provide low cost depth. If any of these players can play top 6 or top 4 D then you have found a diamond in the rough and helps the rebuild quite a lot.

Leivo
Grandberg
Percy
Leipsic
Valiev
Andreas Johnson
Bibeau

Every team in the league has Brown, Gauthier, Johnson, Bibeau, Kadri, Gardiner, etc. calibre prospects / young NHLers.

I don't disagree with your premise, that we don't need a ~5+ year rebuild. But I think it's primarily driven by Rielly, Nylander, our 2015 1st rounder, and hopefully one high quality piece in a Kessel trade return. Our actual depth in the farm isn't really much better than your average team right now (though within a year or so it should be really solid if we keep adding picks/prospects).

Ideally by summer 2016, we'll have 4-5 prospects/young NHLers of Rielly/Nylander quality, + a whole whack load of depth behind them in the farm system through selling off our pending UFAs this past deadline, + upcoming trades of Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, etc.

I see it as us essentially being at the point where Florida was going into the 2013-2014 season. They had Huberdeau, Barkov, and Gudbranson at that point, whereas we have Rielly, Nylander, + our highish 2015 1st.

 

[Mattavarner]

Over/Under 1.5, how many goals does Stamkos get tonight? Should be a fairly easy loss tonight

 

[Gary Nylund]

Stamkos is coming home.

Actually I think Wiggins coming home is more likely to happen. Haha

The chances of Stamoks coming here are near zero IMO. Now Wiggins, that's an entirely different story. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see that happen.

Agree 100%... we need patience, time and some luck.. actually, a lot of luck.

Hope we can get lucky in a lottery, or that later picks outperform draft expectations, and that somewhere in the late first, or second round, we can find a gem of a #1 D man, where is seems so many of the current great D men are found. The more late 1st and 2nd round picks we can get, and just keep picking guys, the more picks you have, the odds are greater of getting lucky.

Very well put. There is no guarantee, no sure fire way of building a winner. We can put ourselves in the best possible position we can to get lucky, but anyone who thinks we can do it without a bit of luck is kidding themselves.

Not sure what to expect but it's pretty clear the emphasis will be building a core through the draft first and foremost.

We have the largest amateur scouting groups in the NHL and we rarely ever had more then one or two top 90 picks in most drafts. That's pathetic, especially as a team that's been unable to even clinch the playoffs.

Trading picks for a player like Holland or even Bernier is at least respectable and makes sort of sense, even if you're a rebuilding team... but using them on Bolland? *sigh*

I totally agree. I liked the Bernier trade and was OK with the Holland trade but the Bolland trade was pukeworthy.

oh, trust me Nith. it is totally both. I can't even go get breakfast, because it's like watching a soap opera develop before my very eyes. holy moses.

People need to remember Bolland was traded for in the off season after our play off run and the game 7 collapse. When many felt the team was finally beginning to trend upwards. What we lacked was leadership and winning experience.

Dave Bolland was brought in to help supplement what we had, and theoretically improve it. The Leafs looked to be moving out of the "rebuilding phase" and towards the winning phase.

Of course now in hindsight it didn't work out at pretty much any level, but at the time the Bolland trade made more sense.

It never made any sense to me. It was the type of move contenders make in an effort to the win the cup right away. We were nowhere near that close. Just an awful awful move, even worse than the Clarkson signing IMO.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe it has something to do with drafting and developing elite talent, and then surrounding that talent with depth?

Tavares, Strome, Subban, Price, Weber, Forsberg just to name a few. Many of these players were drafted years before their teams were able to make the jump from basement dweller to competitor, so saying "two short years" really doesn't cut it for even one of those teams.

Also, Nashville finished that low because Rinne was out for an entire season almost. They were able to draft Jones and restock the team with high end talent in a short time because they already had depth developing and players in key positions.

Nashville is rated 14th in Team Rankings of Hockey's Future. Leafs are 19th. After this draft, that ranking will go up. I don't buy this excuse when you look at the talent that is already on the parent club. How did Nashville turn it around? Did they need a Shanahan long and painful rebuild plan, the one he is selling? That he has fans and media already accepting losing for years to come.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe it has something to do with drafting and developing elite talent, and then surrounding that talent with depth?

Tavares, Strome, Subban, Price, Weber, Forsberg just to name a few. Many of these players were drafted years before their teams were able to make the jump from basement dweller to competitor, so saying "two short years" really doesn't cut it for even one of those teams.

Also, Nashville finished that low because Rinne was out for an entire season almost. They were able to draft Jones and restock the team with high end talent in a short time because they already had depth developing and players in key positions.

i pointed this out (but didn't know Rinne was out).
In a full 82 season

Nashville since 2008 has missed the playoffs twice. (once drafting 4th overall)
Montreal since 2008 has missed the playoffs once (drafting 3rd overall)
Colorado (previously used) has only made the playoffs 4 times

now he's citing the Islanders because they actually "work" but yet they don't, because from 2007-2008 to now, the Islanders and the Leafs have basically been on the same path. and made the same mistake - trade draft picks and they ended up being higher than what they expected, but they still drafted very well, are supplementing a lot of their own drafted players, have consistent goaltending. and got some really key trades (Leddy and Boychuck) to supplement their core.

the Leafs, in the mean time, if rumours prove true, are going to be actively shipping out Phaneuf, Bozak, Lupul and Kessel (25 million dollars per year between the 4), and hopefully succeed with 2 of them. perchance, steal a good young player or two because of the cap strap teams and we have Horton's contract to allow us to go over the cap (if needed).

even if everyone "buys in" and we do a Colorado (high pdo/bad defense) or an Islanders (worse to really good). it doesn't change the fact that we still have to draft. well. and develop. well.

but yah. let's beat the "we're sheep" drum.