The Rebuild Started...

[Horse McHindu]

But why Brayden Point.?.For every Brayden Point,theres 29 other guys(whe were taken in that 3rd round) who will never be NHL players.

Gagners salary is like $600K over league average,its not a big contract..We have $12.8M of capspace available..I'm sure something can be figured out.

It's called 'fear of loss' mentality. It's ever prevalent amongst the JD Burke crew on here. It's why the JD Burke crew on here goes up in arms whenever a 2nd or 3rd round pick is moved. In their eyes, you literally are giving away a Brayden Point with these types of moves. The "crew" unfortunately, fails to take into account probability. This has been explained hundreds of times to them, but "the crew" would rather ignore probability and keep pace with the narrative......the narrative being, "Benning sux."

While I don't condone trading picks unnecessarily, I'm also not going to lose my shit every time Benning trades a pick.

Given the success of Baertschi, Benning has actually beaten the odds statistically with his trading of picks. This is one thing that the JD Burke crew on here doesn't want you to know.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

It's called 'fear of loss' mentality. It's ever prevalent amongst the JD Burke crew on here. It's why the JD Burke crew on here goes up in arms whenever a 2nd or 3rd round pick is moved. In their eyes, you literally are giving away a Brayden Point with these types of moves. The "crew" unfortunately, fails to take into account probability. This has been explained hundreds of times to them, but "the crew" would rather ignore probability and keep pace with the narrative......the narrative being, "Benning sux."

While I don't condone trading picks unnecessarily, I'm also not going to lose my **** every time Benning trades a pick.

Given the success of Baertschi, Benning has actually beaten the odds statistically with his trading of picks. This is one thing that the JD Burke crew on here doesn't want you to know.

Isn't Benning supposed to be some sort of super genius drafter though? If that's really the case, then those draft picks should be way, way more valuable than historical probabilities suggest.

 

[MS]

In the huge list of problems with this incompetent, imbecile GM, the fact that he's given away a few extra draft picks is way down the list and hasn't hurt the team nearly as significantly as his other failings.

That said, the process by which we bled those picks away underlines perfectly just how stupid and incompetent this GM is.

 

[racerjoe]

It's called 'fear of loss' mentality. It's ever prevalent amongst the JD Burke crew on here. It's why the JD Burke crew on here goes up in arms whenever a 2nd or 3rd round pick is moved. In their eyes, you literally are giving away a Brayden Point with these types of moves. The "crew" unfortunately, fails to take into account probability. This has been explained hundreds of times to them, but "the crew" would rather ignore probability and keep pace with the narrative......the narrative being, "Benning sux."

While I don't condone trading picks unnecessarily, I'm also not going to lose my **** every time Benning trades a pick.

Given the success of Baertschi, Benning has actually beaten the odds statistically with his trading of picks. This is one thing that the JD Burke crew on here doesn't want you to know.

What a joke of a post... first you are basically name calling and grouping a large group of people and trying to insult them I might add by calling them the "JD Burke Crew". I don't know how many people here really even read him. I know a few have said they don't I know I don't, yet somehow we are lumped into this group.

Probability has been explained, yet it is you who does not understand this. The chance of Vey, or Poo or anyone else we have sent picks for turning out like Point, or really anything useful is lower, than said draft pick. Not only this, but for a team in our position it is bad from an asset management point of view as well, as most of these players like Granlund or Poo, can be simply picked up of waivers. So really we are throwing away the low shot, of getting a Point, away period.

People don't lose their shit over a single one... it is the shear number. It is why you often hear the term death by a thousand paper cuts.

It gets discussed so often because a few and I group you in this part don't understand either the asset management side of things, or the probability side. Then they argue for a player like Granlund being a win... or Poo doing well when he was measurably terrible.

Benning has not beaten the odds, look at the volume of picks he has thrown away for a Bearstchi. An easily replaceable player, a guy who has never hit 40 points. I like Bea, but you have to be kidding yourself if you think he was a good value. Could we get a second for him if we traded him now?

Having said all of this I don't know why I bother... you are just going to either ignore this post. Or going to make a statement that is false, with absolutely nothing factual to back it up with. Interesting to see if it is A) or B).

 

[y2kcanucks]

It's called 'fear of loss' mentality. It's ever prevalent amongst the JD Burke crew on here. It's why the JD Burke crew on here goes up in arms whenever a 2nd or 3rd round pick is moved. In their eyes, you literally are giving away a Brayden Point with these types of moves. The "crew" unfortunately, fails to take into account probability. This has been explained hundreds of times to them, but "the crew" would rather ignore probability and keep pace with the narrative......the narrative being, "Benning sux."

While I don't condone trading picks unnecessarily, I'm also not going to lose my **** every time Benning trades a pick.

Given the success of Baertschi, Benning has actually beaten the odds statistically with his trading of picks. This is one thing that the JD Burke crew on here doesn't want you to know.

Were people upset when Benning traded away a 2nd for Baertschi? No. Not at all actually. Nice strawman though.

People get upset when Benning does something stupid like a 2nd round pick for Vey, or needlessly throwing in a 2nd round pick into the Sutter trade. And with the amount of picks Benning trades away, the fact that he hasn't acquired a draft pick for a player since July 2015 it does become a problem. This is one of the major reasons why the Canucks aren't in a rebuild.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Were people upset when Benning traded away a 2nd for Baertschi? No. Not at all actually. Nice strawman though.

People get upset when Benning does something stupid like a 2nd round pick for Vey, or needlessly throwing in a 2nd round pick into the Sutter trade. And with the amount of picks Benning trades away, the fact that he hasn't acquired a draft pick for a player since July 2015 it does become a problem. This is one of the major reasons why the Canucks aren't in a rebuild.

The problem with this "hasn't acquired a draft pick for a player" dribble, is that it fails to take into account trades like Dahlen and Leipsic. Yeah......neither guy is technically a draft pick, but both guys are extremely young and look like they have a very good chance of being long term roster players in Vancouver.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The problem with this "hasn't acquired a draft pick for a player" dribble, is that it fails to take into account trades like Dahlen and Leipsic. Yeah......neither guy is technically a draft pick, but both guys are extremely young and look like they have a very good chance of being long term roster players in Vancouver.

Brendan Leipsic is 24. He's not "extremely young" nor does he have a very good chance of being a long-term roster player. In fact, because of all the veterans Benning has brought in I'd say it's a good chance he's waived in October.

Dahlen is one prospect, and Benning was widely praised for that move. Can you name another?

 

[Horse McHindu]

Brendan Leipsic is 24. He's not "extremely young" nor does he have a very good chance of being a long-term roster player. In fact, because of all the veterans Benning has brought in I'd say it's a good chance he's waived in October.

Dahlen is one prospect, and Benning was widely praised for that move. Can you name another?

24 isn't extremely young, but it's still young. Poor choice of words on my part.

Leipsic will make the team in my opinion. Baertschi takes 1st line LW, while Leipsic takes the #2.

I think Goldobin will be the odd man out if he doesn't step up.

But again - if Goldobin does get shafted, is it because the "vets took his spots," or is it simply a case of a guy like Goldobin not being good enough?

As far as Dahlen goes, people might think that the 'vets' are holding a guy like him down, but what would you rather see?

1) Dahlen getting limited bottom 6 minutes in the NHL
2) Dahlen going down the Utica, getting huge minutes, and potentially being the 'alpha' of that team along with guys like Lind, etc.

I fail to see as to who's being "held back" exactly. One can make a case for Goldobin, but the guy hasn't exactly taken the bull by the horns.

 

[y2kcanucks]

24 isn't extremely young, but it's still young. Poor choice of words on my part.

Leipsic will make the team in my opinion. Baertschi takes 1st line LW, while Leipsic takes the #2.

I think Goldobin will be the odd man out if he doesn't step up.

But again - if Goldobin does get shafted, is it because the "vets took his spots," or is it simply a case of a guy like Goldobin not being good enough?

As far as Dahlen goes, people might think that the 'vets' are holding a guy like him down, but what would you rather see?

1) Dahlen getting limited bottom 6 minutes in the NHL
2) Dahlen going down the Utica, getting huge minutes, and potentially being the 'alpha' of that team along with guys like Lind, etc.

I fail to see as to who's being "held back" exactly. One can make a case for Goldobin, but the guy hasn't exactly taken the bull by the horns.

Poor choice of words? Or you just didn't know how old he was and assumed he was "extremely" young?

24 isn't that young in the hockey world. That's right in the middle of a forward's prime.

When Leipsic and Goldobin don't make the team it'll be because Benning overloaded the team with veterans. Out of this lineup:

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser
Granlund-Sutter-Eriksson
Roussel-Gagner-Pettersson
Schaller-Beagle-Virtanen

who comes out for Goldobin and Leipsic?

If this were a rebuild there would be a spot for Leipsic in the bottom 6, and there would be a spot for Goldobin and Dahlen to at least earn one spot, if not two. But like I've said all along, it's not a rebuild. Hence the veteran lineup we have.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Poor choice of words? Or you just didn't know how old he was and assumed he was "extremely" young?

24 isn't that young in the hockey world. That's right in the middle of a forward's prime.

When Leipsic and Goldobin don't make the team it'll be because Benning overloaded the team with veterans. Out of this lineup:

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser
Granlund-Sutter-Eriksson
Roussel-Gagner-Pettersson
Schaller-Beagle-Virtanen

who comes out for Goldobin and Leipsic?

If this were a rebuild there would be a spot for Leipsic in the bottom 6, and there would be a spot for Goldobin and Dahlen to at least earn one spot, if not two. But like I've said all along, it's not a rebuild. Hence the veteran lineup we have.

I thought Leipsic was 23. My bad.

Granlund won't play ahead of Leipsic or Goldobin.

This is how I see it playing out:

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser
Leipsic-Pettersson-Eriksson (or Virtanen)
Roussel-Sutter-Virtanen (or Eriksson)
Schaller-Beagle-Gagner

Granlund or Goldobin will be the 13th forward.

Honestly though - do guys like Leipsic, Goldobin, etc., have any use in a bottom 6 role? I'm not so sure.......especially with the centers that we have (Sutter, Beagle). Guys like Leipsic, Goldobin, Baertschi, and Granlund pretty much have to be top 6 guys otherwise they are useless.

 

[carrotshirt]

Can you name any rebuild teams that got a draft pick from another team and that pick turned Into a main core player. Not Hawks Pitsburg Jets or Lighting.

Well, we’re not rebuilding but are you familiar with how we obtained Horvat?

 

[y2kcanucks]

I thought Leipsic was 23. My bad.

Granlund won't play ahead of Leipsic or Goldobin.

This is how I see it playing out:

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser
Leipsic-Pettersson-Eriksson (or Virtanen)
Roussel-Sutter-Virtanen (or Eriksson)
Schaller-Beagle-Gagner

Granlund or Goldobin will be the 13th forward.

Honestly though - do guys like Leipsic, Goldobin, etc., have any use in a bottom 6 role? I'm not so sure.......especially with the centers that we have (Sutter, Beagle). Guys like Leipsic, Goldobin, Baertschi, and Granlund pretty much have to be top 6 guys otherwise they are useless.

Pettersson is starting on the wing. Also, I think Leipsic is ideal for an energy line role. He's not just a pure offensive forward. I don't think you know much about this player.

So your lineup has no Goldobin, and Granlund out of it. I don't care about Granlund, though I'd be surprised if he weren't given a spot. No Goldobin, no Dahlen, no rebuild. Again, that's a very veteran lineup you have there.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It's called 'fear of loss' mentality. It's ever prevalent amongst the JD Burke crew on here. It's why the JD Burke crew on here goes up in arms whenever a 2nd or 3rd round pick is moved. In their eyes, you literally are giving away a Brayden Point with these types of moves. The "crew" unfortunately, fails to take into account probability. This has been explained hundreds of times to them, but "the crew" would rather ignore probability and keep pace with the narrative......the narrative being, "Benning sux."

While I don't condone trading picks unnecessarily, I'm also not going to lose my **** every time Benning trades a pick.

Given the success of Baertschi, Benning has actually beaten the odds statistically with his trading of picks. This is one thing that the JD Burke crew on here doesn't want you to know.

You are just making this up. You cant know what we think because you dont bother to find out. You are probably afraid we would change your mind if you did actually try to understand.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Hindustan Smyl what are you rambling on about? Benning and co. have set the Canucks back by constantly trying to be competitive instead of tearing it up, hence consistently throwing away draft picks. Leipsic will be the 13th forward as Granlund has been given a one year show me contract with the opportunity to play on the top 9 (radio interview). Gaunce, Leipsic, Goldobin, Motte, Dahlen, Gaudette are all out thanks to veterans like Gagner, Erickkson, Beagle, Roussel, Sutter etc. plugging up roster spots. What about the defence? If Juolevi and Hughes impress at camp how is Dim going to make room with Edler, Del Zotto, Hutton, Pouliot occupying roster spots? It baffles me that some individuals still back the Benning regime blindly.

 

[racerjoe]

I guess it was A).

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

It's called 'fear of loss' mentality. It's ever prevalent amongst the JD Burke crew on here. It's why the JD Burke crew on here goes up in arms whenever a 2nd or 3rd round pick is moved. In their eyes, you literally are giving away a Brayden Point with these types of moves. The "crew" unfortunately, fails to take into account probability. This has been explained hundreds of times to them, but "the crew" would rather ignore probability and keep pace with the narrative......the narrative being, "Benning sux."

While I don't condone trading picks unnecessarily, I'm also not going to lose my **** every time Benning trades a pick.

Given the success of Baertschi, Benning has actually beaten the odds statistically with his trading of picks. This is one thing that the JD Burke crew on here doesn't want you to know.

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-value-1.786131

Benning has traded away picks with the overalls of 33, 50, 53, 84, 85, 94, 99, 124, 126, 157, 204. The chance of not getting a top 6/ top 4 d out of those picks is 49.6%. The chance of not getting an nhl player is 0.6%. Getting Baertschi should not be considered beating the odds when with those picks there is a good chance of getting a player better than Baertschi.

 

[pgj98m3]

I thought Leipsic was 23. My bad.

Granlund won't play ahead of Leipsic or Goldobin.

This is how I see it playing out:

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser
Leipsic-Pettersson-Eriksson (or Virtanen)
Roussel-Sutter-Virtanen (or Eriksson)
Schaller-Beagle-Gagner

Granlund or Goldobin will be the 13th forward.

Honestly though - do guys like Leipsic, Goldobin, etc., have any use in a bottom 6 role? I'm not so sure.......especially with the centers that we have (Sutter, Beagle). Guys like Leipsic, Goldobin, Baertschi, and Granlund pretty much have to be top 6 guys otherwise they are useless.

So basically you are agreeing that the signing of useless(long term) veterans blocks younger potentially bettter players.....

 

[Canucks1096]

Pettersson is starting on the wing. Also, I think Leipsic is ideal for an energy line role. He's not just a pure offensive forward. I don't think you know much about this player.

So your lineup has no Goldobin, and Granlund out of it. I don't care about Granlund, though I'd be surprised if he weren't given a spot. No Goldobin, no Dahlen, no rebuild. Again, that's a very veteran lineup you have there.

You are not making any sense in your argument again. Before you were saying getting players like Goldobin and Liepsic are not rebuilding moves. You said only good move Benning made was Dahlen. You said Liepsic is not a long term player and you said something similiar about Goldobin as well.

Why are you making such a big fuss about Vets blocking young players? If the young player is not in the future plans. What's the big deal? You are indirectly saying rebuilding is about playing young players that have no future and those players that have no player should be playing?

It's like me telling an employee. Well you are not in the future plans of the company but I want to get rid the seniors so you have spot in the lineup. Does that make any sense? Honestly you should pick one lane and stick with it. Don't keep changing lanes. I Don't think you even know what your main point is.

As of right now not even one person can think of a young player that was part of the future plans and was ready and was blocked by a Vet. Well I guess the exception is Stecher for 10% of the season. You say MDZ was blocking Hutton is ridiculous. So you are telling Hutton was second in minutes until Dec. Then all of sudden Green change his mind and decided to have a Vet blocking Hutton from playing?

You can't have both ways. It's either you think some of Liepsic Goldobin and Granlund were good rebuilding moves or you don't think the Vets are blocking any potential future core player.

 

[pgj98m3]

You are not making any sense in your argument again. Before you were saying getting players like Goldobin and Liepsic are not rebuilding moves. You said only good move Benning made was Dahlen. You said Liepsic is not a long term player and you said something similiar about Goldobin as well.

Why are you making such a big fuss about Vets blocking young players? If the young player is not in the future plans. What's the big deal? You are indirectly saying rebuilding is about playing young players that have no future and those players that have no player should be playing?

It's like me telling an employee. Well you are not in the future plans of the company but I want to get rid the seniors so you have spot in the lineup. Does that make any sense? Honestly you should pick one lane and stick with it. Don't keep changing lanes. I Don't think you even know what your main point is.

As of right now not even one person can think of a young player that was part of the future plans and was ready and was blocked by a Vet. Well I guess the exception is Stecher for 10% of the season. You say MDZ was blocking Hutton is ridiculous. So you are telling Hutton was second in minutes until Dec. Then all of sudden Green change his mind and decided to have a Vet blocking Hutton from playing?

You can't have both ways. It's either you think some of Liepsic Goldobin and Granlund were good rebuilding moves or you don't think the Vets are blocking any potential future core player.

We just want to see the young guys play.....some will find their way the rest will fall by the wayside...but young, unproven equals cheap. As opposed to the Benning Plan(and I use the term plan very loosely) which seems to be over pay, give long term, and LNTCs which has led to consecutive bottom finishes while spending to the cap. The “hockey” has been painful to watch as an added bonus.

 

[y2kcanucks]

You are not making any sense in your argument again. Before you were saying getting players like Goldobin and Liepsic are not rebuilding moves. You said only good move Benning made was Dahlen. You said Liepsic is not a long term player and you said something similiar about Goldobin as well.

Why are you making such a big fuss about Vets blocking young players? If the young player is not in the future plans. What's the big deal? You are indirectly saying rebuilding is about playing young players that have no future and those players that have no player should be playing?

It's like me telling an employee. Well you are not in the future plans of the company but I want to get rid the seniors so you have spot in the lineup. Does that make any sense? Honestly you should pick one lane and stick with it. Don't keep changing lanes. I Don't think you even know what your main point is.

As of right now not even one person can think of a young player that was part of the future plans and was ready and was blocked by a Vet. Well I guess the exception is Stecher for 10% of the season. You say MDZ was blocking Hutton is ridiculous. So you are telling Hutton was second in minutes until Dec. Then all of sudden Green change his mind and decided to have a Vet blocking Hutton from playing?

You can't have both ways. It's either you think some of Liepsic Goldobin and Granlund were good rebuilding moves or you don't think the Vets are blocking any potential future core player.

Doesn't surprise me you're lost considering you think that acquiring draft picks is bad.

While I see acquiring older prospects like Goldobin as Leipsic as more of a re-tool type of move (and not a pure rebuilding move) I still loathe the fact that Benning is filling up the team with veterans and not giving any of these young players a chance.

But hey, you can keep thinking that bringing in Jay Beagle and Antoine Roussel = we're rebuilding. It's laughable and you're wrong, but you don't seem to care about reality.

 

[Canucks1096]

I fail to see as to who's being "held back" exactly. One can make a case for Goldobin, but the guy hasn't exactly taken the bull by the horns.

You don't see it because there are no legit prospects that's ready and is being held back. People are just generalizing. One user said Archibald is being held back. A 28 year old that still having issues getting on a 1 way contract is being held back for some reason. That's just silly. Another answer was Hutton. In rookie season when he playing a high level. He was playing ahead of Weber. People did say Stecher. First month they have legit argument but by November in Stecher rookie year. He was in lineup regardless of injury.

If Canucks think a certain young player is the future core. Do people really think Benning is going put him on waivers just lose that player. Of course not. If people think that. That's very naive.

 

[pgj98m3]

You don't see it because there are no legit prospects that's ready and is being held back. People are just generalizing. One user said Archibald is being held back. A 28 year old that still having issues getting on a 1 way contract is being held back for some reason. That's just silly. Another answer was Hutton. In rookie season when he playing a high level. He was playing ahead of Weber. People did say Stecher. First month they have legit argument but by November in Stecher rookie year. He was in lineup regardless of injury.

If Canucks think a certain young player is the future core. Do people really think Benning is going put him on waivers just lose that player. Of course not. If people think that. That's very naive.

Cause Benning has been soooooooo good at retaining and developing talent. He has driven this team to the bottom of the league and yet you still defend him....

 

[Horse McHindu]

Pettersson is starting on the wing. Also, I think Leipsic is ideal for an energy line role. He's not just a pure offensive forward. I don't think you know much about this player.

So your lineup has no Goldobin, and Granlund out of it. I don't care about Granlund, though I'd be surprised if he weren't given a spot. No Goldobin, no Dahlen, no rebuild. Again, that's a very veteran lineup you have there.

Few things:

1) Leipsic was used in an “energy” role in Vegas and was uselesss. When he come here however, he showed pretty good promise. Guys like Granlund and Goldobin have also been useless on the bottom 6.

2) And yes - my lineup has no Goldobin or Granlund. Granlund isn’t good enough, plain and simple. Goldobin makes my line-up IF he has a terrific camp. As of this writing right now however, Goldobin has proven that he’s not worthy. His defensive game has massive holes in it. That’s the difference between Benning and the “JD Burke crew.” “The crew” wants roster spots to be gifted to youngsters, while Benning wants kids to earn their roster spots.........and to place kids in roles that are best suited to their development, be that it Vancouver, juniors, or Utica.

Guys like Horvat, Boeser, Baertschi, and Markstrom all flat out earned their spots. After a rough start to his career, Virtanen started to earn his stripes.

3) what do you think would be better for Dahlen? Getting top 6 minutes in Utica where he’d get tons of ice-time and be placed in an environment where he’d be conditioned to being “the go to guy,” or playing in the NHL in some useless “energy” role with limited minutes, playing alongside Sutter or Beagle?

Also - I would have Quinn Hughes in my line-up this year along with Pettersson (assuming Hughes has a good camp).

Under my system, all of Juolevi, Lind, Dahlen, Gadjovich, etc, would go to Utica, get tons of ice time, play important roles, and help Utica go deep into the playoffs. Get experience ‘going deep’ at the AHL level. But hey - if that equates to “the kids being held back,” then perhaps you and “the JD Burke crew” simply don’t understand what a rebuild entails. There is something to be said about letting kids cook and ripen in the farm.

 

[Horse McHindu]

You don't see it because there are no legit prospects that's ready and is being held back. People are just generalizing. One user said Archibald is being held back. A 28 year old that still having issues getting on a 1 way contract is being held back for some reason. That's just silly. Another answer was Hutton. In rookie season when he playing a high level. He was playing ahead of Weber. People did say Stecher. First month they have legit argument but by November in Stecher rookie year. He was in lineup regardless of injury.

If Canucks think a certain young player is the future core. Do people really think Benning is going put him on waivers just lose that player. Of course not. If people think that. That's very naive.

Great post and you are 100% correct. I’m sure that deep down, the JD Burke crew on here knows this. I mean how can they not? The evidence is overwhelming and is right there for them to see. Amazing how some people would rather ‘stick with the narrative’ (no matter how misguided it is), rather than use facts, logic, and intuition in their so called arguments.

 

[nowhereman]

Did all of the Chicken Littles out there, complaining about a lack of youth, actually think that the organization was going to roll with a roster that boasted Boeser, Pettersson, Dahlen, Gaudette, Leipsic, Goldobin, Juolevi, and Hughes? This is an NHL roster, not a daycare.

Whether you agree or disagree with the quality of the contracts the Canucks signed this past summer, it’s clear Benning and Co. are trying to insulate this team’s youth. They may not be quality veterans but they help bridge the gap until that youth is ready. You all throw shade at Hindustan about asset management but you may want to brush up on development yourselves.