OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: RIP L.C. Greenwood

[SteelFish87*]

There are literally 3 OT's in the top 10 of the draft.

literally? who? Jake Matthews and the dude from Michigan?

My point was it sucks that the Steelers are finally going to be drafting top 5-7 and there aren't any franchise LT's like there usually are. The couple scouting sites I use support this but I would love to know where you get your information that is literally correct

 

[Jules Winnfield]

While the offense certainly shares a load of the blame, the defense has been getting a pass for too long. For the third straight season they can't force turnovers and they have trouble getting pressure on the opposing QB. Lack of talent is part of the issue, but so is coaching. LeBeau's scheme has just gone stale. I believe he'll go down as one of the greatest defensive minds in the NFL, if not the greatest. However, right now I think he's washed up. You can't just sit back with 10 yard cushions and "hope" the other team eventually makes a mistake. You need to be aggressive and take some risks, but LeBeau is scared to death of that because it might give up "a big play". They're giving up big plays anyways.

My fear if Keith Butler gets promoted to DC is that he'll just run the same stale scheme in tribute to LeBeau and bring nothing new to the table. That's why I'd like to see the entire coaching staff canned at the end of the season. Bring in different people with a fresh perspective and different philosophies.

Part of the problem for this is they just don't have the players anymore to carry a 3-4 defense.

In a 3-4, you need your down lineman to clog the running lanes and often times take on double teams to free up a blitzing linebacker or person from the secondary. 3-4 defenses rely heavily on a NT taking out a C/G and having two great pass rushing LBers with two solid cover LBers. Throw in someone from the secondary that can rush/be flexible and you have the ingredients for a phenomenal defense that causes matchup problems on every down. When you don't have those ingredients, just like food, the recipe can turn to ****.

90's Steelers under the 3-4.

Steed at NT
Green and Lloyd at outside LBer rushing
Kirkland at inside LBer
Woodson in the secondary

2000's Steelers under the 3-4

Hampton at NT
Harrison and Woodley at outside LBer
Timmons at inside LBer
Ike and Troy in the secondary

2000's Ravens under the 3-4

Ngata at NT
Lewis and Suggs at LBer
adequate LB partners
Reed in the secondary

The current version of the Steelers just don't have the talent (personnel, age, etc) to support a top 3-4 defense at this time. Our LB corps are the worst they've been in a long time. Woodley is a shadow of himself after the last SB run. He's definitely fatter/slower than he used to be and lost his explosiveness to beat RT's. (Plus he doesn't have awesome Aaron Smith to take out RT's anymore). Timmons is better suited as an OLB imo and was originally drafted for that according to Tomlin's quotes but was converted to ILB because of Harrison being a monster. Our secondary is old and fragile. On defense Cam Heyward has shown he has the talent to possibly be a potential playmaker but Woods not so much.

It would be nice to see primetime DS in the backfield but I don't think there are any such players coming up in the draft anytime soon

 

[Captain Hook]

I have no idea how good Mathews or Lewan will be in the NFL but even if they're just good NFL LT's they'd be a huge upgrade over anything the Steelers have had over there since Marvel Smith's pro bowl season in 2004.

 

[sniugneP]

The scheme is a problem when you try to pressure the QB yet play your coverage 10 yards off the ball. You know the QB will have to get rid of it quickly so sit on those routes and intercept passes. Yet here we are with zero turnovers and our defense getting dinked and dunked to death. They also can't stop the run anymore, but that's more personnel.

The reason their coverage 10 yards of the ball is they can't put pressure on QB anymore. If they can pass rushing consistently, secondary can afford to play aggressive. It's really more personnel issue than scheme.

 

[sniugneP]

I have no idea how good Mathews or Lewan will be in the NFL but even if they're just good NFL LT's they'd be a huge upgrade over anything the Steelers have had over there since Marvel Smith's pro bowl season in 2004.

Jake Matthews is well rounded. He can pass or run blocking equally. He has great instincts and intelligence. He's playing against elite competition in SEC. Plus he got NFL bloodlines, his father was HOF center and his cousin is playing LB for GB.

 

[JTG]

i dont think this is a good draft for franchise LTs

guess we better hope they get Clowney

I don't think it's a poor one. I'm not sure how well Lewan will do in the NFL. I'm not a huge fan of his, but he's a ton like Fisher last year.

I like Matthews the best. I'm not sure if he's going to have the physical measurables, but fact is, he is a football player. He's mean, he's nasty, he's highly intelligent, and even if he doesn't pan out as a LT, he will be an elite, road grading RT at the very least.

And if we truly want this defense to turn around, we'd be much better off drafting Clowney. Having he and Jones opposite one another would make this secondary significantly better, and it'd also counter the pass culture of the current NFL. Pass heavy offenses cannot score if the QB doesn't have time, and/or, he is being hurried or laying on his back.

Part of the problem for this is they just don't have the players anymore to carry a 3-4 defense.

In a 3-4, you need your down lineman to clog the running lanes and often times take on double teams to free up a blitzing linebacker or person from the secondary. 3-4 defenses rely heavily on a NT taking out a C/G and having two great pass rushing LBers with two solid cover LBers. Throw in someone from the secondary that can rush/be flexible and you have the ingredients for a phenomenal defense that causes matchup problems on every down. When you don't have those ingredients, just like food, the recipe can turn to ****.

90's Steelers under the 3-4.

Steed at NT
Green and Lloyd at outside LBer rushing
Kirkland at inside LBer
Woodson in the secondary

2000's Steelers under the 3-4

Hampton at NT
Harrison and Woodley at outside LBer
Timmons at inside LBer
Ike and Troy in the secondary

2000's Ravens under the 3-4

Ngata at NT
Lewis and Suggs at LBer
adequate LB partners
Reed in the secondary

The current version of the Steelers just don't have the talent (personnel, age, etc) to support a top 3-4 defense at this time. Our LB corps are the worst they've been in a long time. Woodley is a shadow of himself after the last SB run. He's definitely fatter/slower than he used to be and lost his explosiveness to beat RT's. (Plus he doesn't have awesome Aaron Smith to take out RT's anymore). Timmons is better suited as an OLB imo and was originally drafted for that according to Tomlin's quotes but was converted to ILB because of Harrison being a monster. Our secondary is old and fragile. On defense Cam Heyward has shown he has the talent to possibly be a potential playmaker but Woods not so much.

It would be nice to see primetime DS in the backfield but I don't think there are any such players coming up in the draft anytime soon

There is a formula for winning on offense and defense. You have to be able to rush the QB first and foremost, and if you can do that, one dimensional teams bite the dust 10/10 times. Hence why teams moving to a heavy aerial attack will fall by the wayside. History has proven as such.

You'll see teams start drafting heaving in the secondary, and play more nickel and dime. Teams will also switch to more pass rush orientated defenses...and probably even more teams will switch back to the 4-3. To counter this, teams will start adopting a more run heavy offense because teams defensive personnel will be geared towards stopping the pass. Round and round we go.

I have no idea how good Mathews or Lewan will be in the NFL but even if they're just good NFL LT's they'd be a huge upgrade over anything the Steelers have had over there since Marvel Smith's pro bowl season in 2004.

I have way more faith in Matthews, and he's less risky because he's at least a great RT. Lewan is LT or bust. Not real stout in the run game.

 

[Al Smith]

Mixed emotions watching Wallace and Lewis play. Wallace is overpaid and the Steelers wouldn't be better with him. Lewis is another story.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I don't think it's a poor one. I'm not sure how well Lewan will do in the NFL. I'm not a huge fan of his, but he's a ton like Fisher last year.

I like Matthews the best. I'm not sure if he's going to have the physical measurables, but fact is, he is a football player. He's mean, he's nasty, he's highly intelligent, and even if he doesn't pan out as a LT, he will be an elite, road grading RT at the very least.

And if we truly want this defense to turn around, we'd be much better off drafting Clowney. Having he and Jones opposite one another would make this secondary significantly better, and it'd also counter the pass culture of the current NFL. Pass heavy offenses cannot score if the QB doesn't have time, and/or, he is being hurried or laying on his back.



There is a formula for winning on offense and defense. You have to be able to rush the QB first and foremost, and if you can do that, one dimensional teams bite the dust 10/10 times. Hence why teams moving to a heavy aerial attack will fall by the wayside. History has proven as such.

You'll see teams start drafting heaving in the secondary, and play more nickel and dime. Teams will also switch to more pass rush orientated defenses...and probably even more teams will switch back to the 4-3. To counter this, teams will start adopting a more run heavy offense because teams defensive personnel will be geared towards stopping the pass. Round and round we go.



I have way more faith in Matthews, and he's less risky because he's at least a great RT. Lewan is LT or bust. Not real stout in the run game.

From what I read Clowney is by far the best athelete in the draft, but the biggest risk at the top as well. I am not sure how I feel about that. It most likely would be between him and the two tackles if we had the choice. I hesitate to take chances that high, on the other hand the Oline is so young and could develope without adding yet another high draft pick to it. I might lean toward taking the chance with Clowney though and drafting an offensive lineman later. You can find effective linemen later as insurance against our line never coming together down the road.

 

[BigBenSF*]

literally? who? Jake Matthews and the dude from Michigan?

My point was it sucks that the Steelers are finally going to be drafting top 5-7 and there aren't any franchise LT's like there usually are. The couple scouting sites I use support this but I would love to know where you get your information that is literally correct

Matthews, Kouandjio, and Lewan are all top 10 talents and are all OT's. Were you expecting every single player in the top 10 to be an OT?

 

[MrBurghundy]

The reason their coverage 10 yards of the ball is they can't put pressure on QB anymore. If they can pass rushing consistently, secondary can afford to play aggressive. It's really more personnel issue than scheme.

They aren't putting pressure on the QB because he is getting rid of the ball too quickly. The defense has no chance to put on a pass rush. If the QB's were forced to hold on to the ball a bit longer we'd be seeing more sacks and in turn more turnovers.

 

[Shockmaster]

They aren't putting pressure on the QB because he is getting rid of the ball too quickly. The defense has no chance to put on a pass rush. If the QB's were forced to hold on to the ball a bit longer we'd be seeing more sacks and in turn more turnovers.

I always got the impression that deep down LeBeau didn't like the tight man coverage he used in 2011 against the Patriots even though it was very effective. It wasn't his signature zone blitz. Sounds silly for a DC to dislike something that worked, but he's probably got a lot of stubborn pride regarding his zone blitz.

 

[KIRK]

They aren't putting pressure on the QB because he is getting rid of the ball too quickly. The defense has no chance to put on a pass rush. If the QB's were forced to hold on to the ball a bit longer we'd be seeing more sacks and in turn more turnovers.

You need a shutdown corner for that (and, no, Ike Taylor isn't a shut down corner). IMO, to run LeBeau's 3-4 completely, you need a shutdown corner to take away a chunk of the field. That's why this Steelers defense always has been inconsistent. Aside from one brilliantly schemed game against Peyton Manning in the playoffs, the other team not having a top quarterback pretty much is a prerequisite for success. Put it this way: For all of the playoff success this team has had in say the last dozen years, how successful has this defense been in the playoffs (or even the regular season) against TOP quarterbacks?

 

[JTG]

From what I read Clowney is by far the best athelete in the draft, but the biggest risk at the top as well. I am not sure how I feel about that. It most likely would be between him and the two tackles if we had the choice. I hesitate to take chances that high, on the other hand the Oline is so young and could develope without adding yet another high draft pick to it. I might lean toward taking the chance with Clowney though and drafting an offensive lineman later. You can find effective linemen later as insurance against our line never coming together down the road.

Clowney has been heralded for his entire football career. He's a freak athlete, and it'd be mighty hard to pass on him if he comes out clean and performs well this season and at his pro day (he will probably not even ponder going to the combine). Having he and Jones across from each other would be an incredible sight to see. Best pure pass rusher from the last 2 drafts. It'd seriously speed up the rebuild on defense here, and would give us the best linebacking corps in the league, despite not having a strong side MLB.

I'm just a huge Jake Matthews fan, and whether right or wrong, you sort of ponder having another Bruce Matthews on your team. We'll see how he does this season.

You need a shutdown corner for that (and, no, Ike Taylor isn't a shut down corner). IMO, to run LeBeau's 3-4 completely, you need a shutdown corner to take away a chunk of the field. That's why this Steelers defense always has been inconsistent. Aside from one brilliantly schemed game against Peyton Manning in the playoffs, the other team not having a top quarterback pretty much is a prerequisite for success. Put it this way: For all of the playoff success this team has had in say the last dozen years, how successful has this defense been in the playoffs (or even the regular season) against TOP quarterbacks?

They have always faired pretty well, actually. The team has beaten every good QB the league has to offer. I do see your point though.

 

[Shockmaster]

You need a shutdown corner for that (and, no, Ike Taylor isn't a shut down corner). IMO, to run LeBeau's 3-4 completely, you need a shutdown corner to take away a chunk of the field. That's why this Steelers defense always has been inconsistent. Aside from one brilliantly schemed game against Peyton Manning in the playoffs, the other team not having a top quarterback pretty much is a prerequisite for success. Put it this way: For all of the playoff success this team has had in say the last dozen years, how successful has this defense been in the playoffs (or even the regular season) against TOP quarterbacks?

With the exception of the Patriots game in 2011, they haven't done very well against those QBs. The blame was always shifted onto the offense in those games because they would "score too fast" or "not run the ball enough." The Steelers always play scared in those games.

And on a side note regarding Ike Taylor, isn't it getting ridiculous seeing him drop INTs all the time? The guy is a professional, people need to stop making excuses for him and he needs to catch the ball when he gets the chance.

 

[sniugneP]

Clowney has been heralded for his entire football career. He's a freak athlete, and it'd be mighty hard to pass on him if he comes out clean and performs well this season and at his pro day (he will probably not even ponder going to the combine). Having he and Jones across from each other would be an incredible sight to see. Best pure pass rusher from the last 2 drafts. It'd seriously speed up the rebuild on defense here, and would give us the best linebacking corps in the league, despite not having a strong side MLB.

I'm just a huge Jake Matthews fan, and whether right or wrong, you sort of ponder having another Bruce Matthews on your team. We'll see how he does this season.

Clowney has been little underwhelming this season so far. I think he's little overhyped but he's such a freak athlete like you said. He has a foot injury that will need a surgery after this season but won't miss any games. That might explain his performance.

While he's a best prospect and athlete in 2014 draft class, he's not a lock for first overall pick. Jax and TB need a QB badly so Bridgewater and Boyd may get ahead of Clowney.

I like Jake Matthews a lot and he is more safer pick than Clowney, IMO. But that doesn't mean I won't pick Clowney, it would be incredibly hard to pass on him. It's not too often we get an opportunity to get a best pass rusher for years.

 

[Captain Hook]

I think Clowney's just going through the motions this year and trying not to get a major injury. I don't see the Steelers landing him in the draft though. Very hard to imagine him not being a top 2 or 3 pick overall. I think the Steelers will finish a little better than that despite their current struggles.

 

[sniugneP]

Yeah, more likely Steelers will get around 5th-8th pick.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I think parts of the team will start to gel and we'll rattle off a 3 wins in 4 games stretch at some point of the season...obviously nowhere near enough to salvage the season, but enough to keep us out of contention for a top 3 pick.

5-8 sounds about right.

 

[Mordax]

I think parts of the team will start to gel and we'll rattle off a 3 wins in 4 games stretch at some point of the season...obviously nowhere near enough to salvage the season, but enough to keep us out of contention for a top 3 pick.

5-8 sounds about right.

So you're saying we'll "Toronto Maple Leaf" it?

 

[Darth Vitale]

I just found out something that raised my respe't level for Pittsburgh: it's where the word "jagoff" was invented. That's pretty awesome! Not every big city can lay claim to a top-notch expletive or slur.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jagoff

Calling a deserving person a jagoff is one of my all-time favorites, reserved only for special occasions. Wayta go der Pittsburgh. DAaaaaaa Burgh.

Also, I have it on good authority the Superfans are behind the Pirates all the way this fall, not having a worthy franchise of their own to root for (sure as hell ain't the Cubs and der Jagoff owners!).

Hope they kick some ass.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I just found out something that raised my respe't level for Pittsburgh: it's where the word "jagoff" was invented. That's pretty awesome! Not every big city can lay claim to a top-notch expletive or slur.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jagoff

Calling a deserving person a jagoff is one of my all-time favorites, reserved only for special occasions. Wayta go der Pittsburgh. DAaaaaaa Burgh.

Also, I have it on good authority the Superfans are behind the Pirates all the way this fall, not having a worthy franchise of their own to root for (sure as hell ain't the Cubs and der Jagoff owners!).

Hope they kick some ass.

I believe that Jagoff was a derivation of a phrase meant to show our love for Jagr.

 

[Shockmaster]

Looks like Haley's wife was sexting naked pictures of herself to some random guy. Between that, the fact that Haley was at a bar less than 12 hours before opening day, the fact that his players generally don't like him and the fact that his offense sucks, how can the Steelers justify keeping him employed any longer?

 

[OnMyOwn]

So you're saying I'm the reason the Steelers suck? They were only boobie pictures, guys. Honest

 

[Mordax]

So you're saying I'm the reason the Steelers suck? They were only boobie pictures, guys. Honest

Pics or it didn't happen

 

[Shockmaster]

Pics or it didn't happen

Google "Todd Haley's wife"