OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Bayer Pittsburghusen

[Big McLargehuge]

To be fair it's much easier to sell stars that play 90% of the game, without padding, without helmets, with a closer camera angle, with a sport that can be dominated by individuals in a way that hockey just can't.


But yeah, the NHL doesn't even try.

 

[plaidchuck]

To be fair it's much easier to sell stars that play 90% of the game, without padding, without helmets, with a closer camera angle, with a sport that can be dominated by individuals in a way that hockey just can't.


But yeah, the NHL doesn't even try.

True, and to be fair it's not really the league but rather the troglodyte media and talking heads that cover the players.

The league tried to market Crosby and got ridiculed for it.

 

[DanielPlainview]

A guy like Curry would have been beaten to death on the court as a starter in the Jordan era. Lebron wouldn't get away with his whining BS. The NBA is soft compared to then. I don't like it and haven't taken the league seriously since they changed the rules.

 

[TNT87]

A guy like Curry would have been beaten to death on the court as a starter in the Jordan era. Lebron wouldn't get away with his whining BS. The NBA is soft compared to then. I don't like it and haven't taken the league seriously since they changed the rules.

I enjoyed the NBA in the 80s and 90s but I don't watch it anymore. I can't stand it.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Thirteen seasons are done for Lebron now, which is how many MJ had before his last two with the Wizards.

MJ's career was substantially better in every measurable accolade to this point.

Even including non-prime MJ at the end, he still beats Lebron in career averages of points and steals, are tied in block, and Lebron has a slight edge in rebounding and assists.

Lebron is an all-time great and easily the best of his generation, but I see no way to not say Jordan is a cut above with the edge in scoring titles, Finals wins and MVPs, and defensive prowess.

Congrats to Cleveland, though. Nice to see a dog find a bone once in a while.

Jordan scored more because he shot more, James has been a more efficient player, substantially so at his peak. Lebron is also a much better passer and is a better defensive player. His ability to play and guard almost any position is pretty unique, and outclasses Jordan there. If you are using steals as a basis for defensive play, well Curry led the league in steals and if you watched his D this series... Also, Jordan was the 3rd best defensive player on his team for his second 3peat, to give an idea of the quality of team he was on.

 

[member 51464]

MJ was NBA All-Defensive First Team selection 9 times to Lebron's 5. That was the basis of my statement that MJ was a better defender over the course of his career. The steals were just mentioned because I was listing all the major categories.

 

[Brandinho]

I will give the NBA one thing, they know how to sell their talent. They celebrate their stars and legacy.

Meanwhile, in the NHL...

One of the major problems is the culture of the NHL versus that of the NBA. In the NHL, you're encouraged to be quiet, go about your business and sublimate much of your individuality. Meanwhile, basketball players are encouraged in the opposite direction. While some people may decry the individualism of the NBA, that's what sells. So many NBA stars are marketable because they stand out, their individual style is noticeable and it allows fans to connect with them as individuals. I love hockey because I grew up playing it, but if I were someone without that background and a friend tried to get me into the NHL, I'm not sure it'd take. The sport itself is great, but the NHL leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Brandinho]

MJ was NBA All-Defensive First Team selection 9 times to Lebron's 5. That was the basis of my statement that MJ was a better defender over the course of his career. The steals were just mentioned because I was listing all the major categories.

I disagree, Lebron's defensive skills are much better qualitatively. You have to account for the vast difference in skill and athleticism around the league with Jordan vs Lebron, just as you had to with Jordan vs somebody like Wilt. Lebron is so much bigger, stronger and more athletic than Jordan and that can't be ignored.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

MJ was NBA All-Defensive First Team selection 9 times to Lebron's 5. That was the basis of my statement that MJ was a better defender over the course of his career. The steals were just mentioned because I was listing all the major categories.

And Kobe was selected 9 times as well, despite thinking that helping on defense was beneath him for the second half of his career. Even disregarding that they play different positions and taller players will always be more valuable defensively, the media votes for these teams are meaningless- Curry got 2 first place votes for the all defense team.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Wales!

 

[Shrimper]

 

[wheelz87]

LeBron gets off the plane with a 'Ultimate Warrior' shirt on. The guy just doesn't get it. Get over yourself dude.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Im not laughing because I necessarily disagree. Having lived through Jordan's career, (along with a good chunk of Bird and Magic, etc...) it's pretty clear to me that James is the most unique, physically-gifted player (and not said as a backhanded compliment) player in the history of the sport, and yes, probably the best, but man that's an impossible sell in basketball circles where every coherent thought is met by cries of RINGZ!

Then again, I also believe Peyton Manning is the greatest player in NFL history, and most seem convinced he's not even the best of his era, so...

Who do people think is the best NFL player over the last 20 years if not Manning? I think the guy is a complete dick but I can't deny how good he was.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Who do people think is the best NFL player over the last 20 years if not Manning?

I would imagine you'd get a lot of Brady answers if you poll the northeast.

 

[Captain Hook]

I would imagine you'd get a lot of Brady answers if you poll the northeast.

Yep. Brady was the better playoff performer. Peyton lost his first playoff game an astonishing 9 times in his career.

 

[IcedCapp]

Who do people think is the best NFL player over the last 20 years if not Manning? I think the guy is a complete dick but I can't deny how good he was.

So the two posts following yours kinda answer it

Hell, remember in... whatever **** year it was when the Giants won their second, people said Eli was better than Peyton, because of this warped value people add to Championships

 

[Captain Hook]

I also found the opinions that Eli was better than Peyton ridiculous because Peyton was so much more dominating and the entire argument was based only on championships and not ability. It's like suggesting Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl and Marino didn't.

I don't think the above applies to Brady/Manning though. Brady dominates very close to the level that Manning does but has had far more playoff success in his career. The playoff success is more of a tie breaker than anything.

And while I agree that championships can't be the only deciding factor in ranking players, you can't just dismiss playoff performance. Losing your first playoff game 9 times is pretty egregious no matter how you spin it. We have to acknowledge that some great players play better under the enormous pressure of the playoffs and some play worse. I'd obviously rather have the guy that plays better that time of year. The ultimate goal is to win championships after all.

 

[IcedCapp]

I also found the opinions that Eli was better than Peyton ridiculous because Peyton was so much more dominating and the entire argument was based only on championships and not ability. It's like suggesting Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl and Marino didn't.

I don't think the above applies to Brady/Manning though. Brady dominates very close to the level that Manning does but has had far more playoff success in his career. The playoff success is more of a tie breaker than anything.

And while I agree that championships can't be the only deciding factor in ranking players, you can't just dismiss playoff performance. Losing your first playoff game 9 times is pretty egregious no matter how you spin it. We have to acknowledge that some great players play better under the enormous pressure of the playoffs and some play worse. I'd obviously rather have the guy that plays better that time of year.

The Patriots had less playoff success as Brady's stats 'improved."

During their first title run, Brady was benched for Bledsoe and his numbers in the Super Bowl were pedestrian.

They had one of the best defenses of the past 30 years combined with the best coach in my life time.

That's not to say Brady isn't very good, or great, or whatever, but I find this notion that he's one of the greatest of all times to be... awkward.

I think it's 10000% driven by the number of championships his TEAM has won, and in football, I don't think you can point to a singular individual and say HA HA!

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Brady is a mediocre QB who looks great to the untrained eye because of the system and coach he played under.

 

[DanielPlainview]

What.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I'm really excited for the US/Argentina match tonight. While I'm not expecting a win, it's always good to see the national team get to play a high touted opponent in a real competitive match. As long as Wondo is glued to the bench, I'm going to remain optimistic of an exciting game.

Just remember, last time the US played the world's #1 team in the semi-final of a tournament, they beat Spain's golden generation 2-0... with Ricardo Clarke, Johnathan Spector, and Jay Demerit all playing. So there is reason to be hopeful.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Wondo in the starting lineup.

Already playing from behind.

Edit-

Jesus, Wondo is useless unless you're going to have a majority of possession. He doesn't run any channels and is non existent on defense. Not to mention he can't track down long balls. And he gave Messi a free kick inot the most dangerous spot ever.

 

[bathroomSTAAL]

Messi is good

 

[DanielPlainview]

This is going to be 4 or 5 to 0. The US is just not in their league.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I wish they would go down swinging with the kids instead of Beckerman and Wondo