The PIT/WSH series is a reminder of why key players get credit for team success

[Mr Jiggyfly]

No no, all of hockey should be reduced to points per game. And the more on the power play the better. Unless its an hfboards romanticized player, in which case a low playoff points per game can be excused or rationalized - late bloomer, injuries, etc.

I have no doubt that if I said "Toews intangibles" three times fast while looking in my mirror, you would appear...

 

[ForeverDrought]

There's no way the Caps should lose the series, especially now with Crosby out and the other injuries sustained by the Pens.

If anything, this is real evidence that the Caps cannot win with the personnel they currently have in place.

 

[madinsomniac]

When you matched up the caps to the pens minus letang you found few places on the roster that were not biased heavily to the pens in 5x5 production... the caps are built like a traditional style playoff team... they play a single way and frankly are doing a dozen things wrong... the pens do have a significant defensive disadvantage that is being rectified by team defense and shotblocking... there is a strategy for that but the caps are just peppering mostly harmless shots and leaving themselves exposed for counterpunches...

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Winning the Stanley Cup is hard.

Yes, it's a team achievement. No one player wins a cup. Absolutely true.

But you know what? A lot of great ****ing teams don't win cups. A lot of great players, surrounded by great talent on those great teams don't win Stanley Cups.

Washington is as deep a team as you can imagine, backed by a Vezina-winning and currently Vezina nominated goalie.

They drew the 8th seed, and now they're facing off against a team that tonight did not ice their #1 Center, their #1 Defensemen, or their #1 Goaltender.

And they still found a way to lose.



The core? Elite.

The talent surrounding the core? Talented and deep.

The goalie? Very good to great.

The matchup? The hockey gods literally could not do more for you within the current (albeit very stupid) playoff system.

And the Caps are going to lose.



So yeah, when the key players on teams like PIT, or LAK, or CHI find ways to win again and again and again in the modern NHL, you're damn right that factors into evaluating them against their peers. It can't be, shouldn't be, and isn't the only thing considered, but it should damn well be considered.

It's very easy to say 'oh, well player X doesn't get there without the team around him'. Yeah, and any number of players with teams just as good or better than player X, didn't even get close, let alone climb the mountain multiple times.

Because in the NHL it's a lot easier and more likely for a great team to lose out on a cup multiple times, through an entire era, than it is for a great team to win one, let alone two or three.

How can the core be elite if they never make the difference in the 2nd round?

Name me one, just one, 2nd round series where at least 2 of Backstrom, Ovechkin, Holtby and Carlson (who's been their #1 dman most years) dominate.

I think people have to start admitting the Caps do not have an elite core. And if you don't have an elite core you don't have a good chance to win.

As an example last year Panthers-Islanders series i think most people can agree with me when i say the Panthers had the better team, difference wasn't much, but it was still there. What happened? Greiss played lights out and Tavares went beastmode.

Blues beat the Hawks in 7 after a tough series, and i think Tarasenko scored 5 or 6 goals in that series. Where is Ovechkin?

We didn't see the Caps have 2 guys step up like that even against the Leafs. Im not saying the Leafs are a bad team, but when you don't have top guys that can take over a series even against an inferior team, you have to realize where the problem is.

The Caps are masters of none. They're good at everything, but not elite. As a result they lose all these close games.

Look at the Preds, they have an elite d-core. Oilers have McDavid and Talbot, two guys who can steal a game in any given night. Getzlaf is doing more for the Ducks than any one player is doing for the Caps. I could go on and on.

As much as it is a team sport, and one or two players can't be the difference in every series, it has to happen sometimes. For the Caps it never happens and the games are always close. The guys get their opportunities and fail. Simple as that.

 

[rintinw]

This really isn't true. You're making it seem like Washington's key forwards aren't doing anything and are getting dominated by Pittsburgh's key forwards and the depth isn't making a difference in this series. Here's how it actually looks though in terms of pure point production:

Pens:

6 points - Guentzel
5 points - Malkin
4 points - Kessel, Schultz, Crosby
3 points - Cullen, Hornqvist, Maatta
2 points - Cole
1 point - Bonino, Kunitz, Wilson
0 points - Duoulin, Sheary, Kuhnhackl, Hagelin, Hainsey, Daley, Rust, Rowney

Caps:

4 points - Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Ovechkin
3 points - Williams, Oshie
2 points - Niskanen, Shattenkirk, Johansson
1 point - Schmidt, Eller
0 points - Carlson, Burakovsky, Winnik, Beagle, Alzner, Wilson, Carey, Orlov, Orpik


So, we have Guentzel outproducing everyone as not a core player. Then we have Malkin with 5 points, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kessel, Kuznetsov, Crosby (in 3 games) as core players with 4 points. Schultz with 4 points as a non core players. Pittsburgh with one more non core player in the 3 points category. Washington with 2 more in the non core 2 points group. Pittsburgh with one more in the one point and one less in the zero points group.

Amongst the team's big forwards that would generally be considered their core:
Pittsburgh: 13 points (one less game for Crosby)
Washington: 12 points (or 11 if you want Oshie here instead of Kuznetsov)

Guentzel and Schultz alone have 10 points. Washington's next best two combine for 6 points. Then Pittsburgh's next two combine for 6 points while Washington's hits 4 points. Or for an easier way to look at it:

Pittsburgh's core forwards: 13 points
Washington's core forwards: 12 points

Pittsburgh's depth: 24 points
Washington's depth: 14 points

Pittsburgh's depth is dominating Washington's in terms of pure point production. I do think Pittsburgh's core forwards are outplaying Washington's but I'd say their depth and better goaltending are having far more of an impact on this series thus far than their stars outplaying Washington's stars.

I don't think many in PIT would assess Guentzel as 'depth'. But you are right, WSH top 6 is doing fine (point wise) and their bottom 6 has amassed 1 point between 6 of them. Also it doesn't help that WSH defense which was seen as their advantage is outscored by PIT defense.

Top 6: PIT 22 (20 GP) - WSH 20 (24 GP)
Defense: PIT 9 - WSH 5
Bottom 6: PIT 6 - WSH 1

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Letang is a number one but he's not what I consider a high end, elite number one like the other names I mentioned.

Letang is arguably a top 5 defenseman in the NHL when healthy. Even if you're not that high on him, he's at the very least a top 10 defenseman. So I'd say the Pens do get a check beside the "elite defenseman" category with him.

Otherwise, I think you're confusing "elite #1D" with "one of the best of his generation". Pens have the former, but not the latter.

 

[illpucks]

The Capitals are on paper an almost flawless team from top to bottom, including coaching. This is why the play the games.

If they can't beat this Pens team then maybe this core just wasn't meant to win a Stanley Cup. I can't see any way that they could get better next season save dropping Alzner (and maybe Orpik) and upgrading at 3C.

 

[Bank Shot]

That's probably the only move they could make at this point.

Can't really blow up the core as that will make the team worse.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

The Capitals are a very good team. The Penguins are a very, very good team.

People talk about the Penguins' speed, and if you've watched these games you would see just how critical it's been to the Penguins' success. Washington has been able to maintain possession for long stretches (where people say they've been "dominating" the Pens) but it's been a whole lot of perimeter play, their dangerous chances have been relatively few. And that has a whole hell of a lot to do with the fact that the Penguins consistently win board battles, they consistently win the races to loose pucks, and they consistently keep pace with the Capitals as the Caps try to break out or cycle the puck.

The Capitals' cycle game is part of what's killing them. You can see in the way they pass the puck that they have very disjointed chemistry with each other - they're all supremely talented but their puck instincts are clashing, and it's in sharp contrast to the Penguins who, for all the defensive lapses they occasionally make, have a real nose for setting up offensive plays. The Pens' speed is killing the Caps' ability to make plays.

 

[canadianguy77]

You know better than that. Stop with the excuses.

 

[hobochangba]

Ovechkin's playoff stats are better than Toews but you're right, Toews should get credit for winning Cups while Ovechkin should get knocked for his lack of cups.

Toews plays a 200 foot game. Ovi plays a 50 foot game in the offensive zone. Floats in the 'D' zone. Can you imagine Ovi playing shutdown & killing penalties ?

All Toews has done is lead his boys to 3 cups (and they should have beat the Kings and had four but LA just wouldn't give up. Have to admire them.)

 

[hobochangba]

Ovie flat out sucks. He plays like a highly predictable video game which works in the regular season but not in the playoffs. Throw 1-3 big show hits, waits for the one timer at the top of the face off circle on special teams, and tries those little gallops to the net followed up by a half hearted low wrister like 75% of the time. He is playing his signature playoff/big game game right now, not sure why he looks so confused.

Speed. That's why he seems confused. Pure speed. You would have thought after last year's run the Caps would have done something to help with their speed. Adding Eller (while a decent player) surely isn't the answer.

 

[Russian Factor]

Toews plays a 200 foot game. Ovi plays a 50 foot game in the offensive zone. Floats in the 'D' zone. Can you imagine Ovi playing shutdown & killing penalties ?

All Toews has done is lead his boys to 3 cups (and they should have beat the Kings and had four but LA just wouldn't give up. Have to admire them.)

Not every player has to be good defensively. Ovechkin is supposed to score. If he does that, he should be left the hell alone. Kessel sucks at defense too but it doesn't matter. He scores and that's what he's supposed to do. The former gets lambasted because his team hasn't stepped up when he has. Kessel is the golden boy because he stepped up and his team around him did too. In Toronto, he did similar stuff. He was let down by those around him though, and got **** for it despite it not being his fault. You see how perceptions change based on the support around the player?

 

[meenamjah]

Not every player has to be good defensively. Ovechkin is supposed to score. If he does that, he should be left the hell alone. Kessel sucks at defense too but it doesn't matter. He scores and that's what he's supposed to do. The former gets lambasted because his team hasn't stepped up when he has. Kessel is the golden boy because he stepped up and his team around him did too. In Toronto, he did similar stuff. He was let down by those around him though, and got **** for it despite it not being his fault. You see how perceptions change based on the support around the player?

how many cup winning captains have had a "controller disconnected" moment, much less multiple? that sets a really crappy example for the rest of the team.

 

[Riptide]

I'm a huge caps fan, but their issues have a lot more to do with low hockey IQ, inability to raise the effort level in the playoffs, and other "between the ears" issues. They also refuse to take the opportunities to drive to the net with the puck or shoot when presented with clear opportunities. The playoffs are different and many of their players refuse to change their games.

I don't think this can be understated - especially the going to the net part (and I've said this a couple of times today in various threads). Most of the scoring chances they've had have come from right around the net (or at least originated there), and it's something that they're not doing on a regular basis.

 

[Riptide]

Letang is a number one but he's not what I consider a high end, elite number one like the other names I mentioned.

Again though, Pittsburgh is a unique case of having one of the best center duos of all time.

When he's on his game (which is usually about 70% of the games he actually plays) he's probably one of the top 5 ES defenders in the league. His complete game isn't there because his sucks on the PP, but other than that he's easily one of the better D in the league - as long as he's "on". When he's "off" he's barely a top 4D.

Prior to this year with Schultz and 3 years ago with Niskanen, Pittsburgh's record without Letang was brutal. Having 2 great centers didn't come close to making up for that. The only thing that has is another D (and more with Daley here) who can help handle the transition game that they miss dearly with Letang out.

 

[JaegerDice]

It's nice to know at least one other elite Dman other than Keith is trash on the PP....

 

[The Noot]

how many cup winning captains have had a "controller disconnected" moment, much less multiple? that sets a really crappy example for the rest of the team.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Winning the Stanley Cup is hard.

Yes, it's a team achievement. No one player wins a cup. Absolutely true.

But you know what? A lot of great ****ing teams don't win cups. A lot of great players, surrounded by great talent on those great teams don't win Stanley Cups.

Washington is as deep a team as you can imagine, backed by a Vezina-winning and currently Vezina nominated goalie.

They drew the 8th seed, and now they're facing off against a team that tonight did not ice their #1 Center, their #1 Defensemen, or their #1 Goaltender.

And they still found a way to lose.



The core? Elite.

The talent surrounding the core? Talented and deep.

The goalie? Very good to great.

The matchup? The hockey gods literally could not do more for you within the current (albeit very stupid) playoff system.

And the Caps are going to lose.



So yeah, when the key players on teams like PIT, or LAK, or CHI find ways to win again and again and again in the modern NHL, you're damn right that factors into evaluating them against their peers. It can't be, shouldn't be, and isn't the only thing considered, but it should damn well be considered.

It's very easy to say 'oh, well player X doesn't get there without the team around him'. Yeah, and any number of players with teams just as good or better than player X, didn't even get close, let alone climb the mountain multiple times.

Because in the NHL it's a lot easier and more likely for a great team to lose out on a cup multiple times, through an entire era, than it is for a great team to win one, let alone two or three.

I don't see your logic at all. One great team losing against another great team, and this somehow indicates that key players deserve the lion's share of the credit for team success?

If anything, the fact that Pittsburgh is still winning in spite of missing, as you put it, their #1 C, D, and G, is indicative of the fact that key players are way less important to team success than a lot of people make them out to be.

 

[shakermaker]

I don't how much of the blame can be laid at the feet of the core seeing as there's a pretty high turnover of roster players meaning that the core might be quite different in a span of two or three seasons.

Washington's core isn't.

The only guys that haven't been there for 4+ seasons are Oshie and Williams

 

[Iceman]

Actually, I think the reason why Washington isn't experiencing any major playoff success is because nobody is stepping up.

Justin Williams wasn't heads above the best player for LA when he won his Smythe but he surely stepped up and it made them win the cup after 26 or so playoff games.

 

[Ola]

Yeah, I think you are right in principle.

I think it comes down to this. At this time of the year, and especially maybe starting from next round, it gets very very tough to score goals. The key is simply to have go to sources for offense that stands the test of May too. Many teams can defend and grind, but very few can defend and grind and be electric offensively in May.

What does Pat Kane that AO does not have? A playing style that works well in May. Its as simple as that. I love AO, but I've always said that snipers like him rarely win Cups for his team. Its not about him only, Hull got a Cup but never as a goto player. The best centers often wins cups for their teams, the best wings don't. Kane is a player that can find open ice even in the POs -- by going to the outside -- and create offense from there. He is the best in the game by far at creating from the outside, beat one guy 1 on 1, get on the inside and create chances.

Sure the Caps have a bit of attitude problems etc. But why do they have a bad confidence? Because they have failed before. Why have they failed before? Because of the above.

 

[ulvvf]

Ehh if anything it is a reminder of that key players are not so importent, pittsburgh miss key players like Crosby and Letang and they still win over Washington.

 

[Bubba88]

Ovechkin, Backstrom and Holtby aren't Close to the great Players they can be and have been on man regular Seasons.

I agree with the OP.
When I see a Team with Malkin or Kopitar or Kane, I will always think this Team has that Chance to win that PO Game. That certain Player has stepped up huge before and and did it again and did it again and can do it again.

 

[TheDanceOfMaternity]

The 2nd round is the furthest the caps has ever gone with Ovechkin, correct?

C'mon man, they are even built better than the sharks ever have been, maybe save 2010.