The PIT/WSH series is a reminder of why key players get credit for team success

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Huh? If anything the Pens winning without Crosby shows that it is a team sport and that core players get unreasonable praise/criticism.

 

[JaegerDice]

Huh? If anything the Pens winning without Crosby shows that it is a team sport and that core players get unreasonable praise/criticism.

1) I think the way this series has played out has more to do with the Capitals key players than Pittsburghs.

2) That said, if you want to look at it in terms of Pittsburgh overcoming, the bulk of the Pens scoring in this series has gone through Crosby, Malkin and Kessel, plus Guentzel continuing to tear **** up. It is their key guys )and likely future key guys) getting it done for the most part.

3) Malkin is still playing and still a key player. The OP was no more singularly about Crosby than it was about Toews (as some have speculated), or Kane or Kopitar, or Doughty or, etc.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Huh? If anything the Pens winning without Crosby shows that it is a team sport and that core players get unreasonable praise/criticism.

Not really. The pens got abused tonight without Crosby... Just not on the scoreboard. I'll take it.

 

[JaegerDice]

Is the piece that Washington has always missed an elite #1 D?

Their defence core as a whole has often been very impressive and deep, but basically with a bunch of guys you'd want as your #2-4.

There's never been a Keith, Doughty, Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger/Niedermayer, etc.

Yeah, I know Pitt has never had that Norris winning guy either, but they've had an all-time level center duo to help offset that.

I've rooted for Washington to win the last few years, but they just don't seem to have it.

They're not really lacking anything.

In a perfect world you'd probably wish for a little more overall team speed, but slower teams (both in terms of skating and puck moving) have won the cup. And slower teams have sure as **** gone past the 2nd round!

The common refrain of 'player X hasnt succeeded because he hasnt had enough talent around him' no longer applies to the WSH core.

It hasnt for at least 2 seasons now and frankly, while you could argue previous teams might not have been good enough to contend for a cup, they were certainly good enough to make it past the 2nd round.

And that doesnt mean they're useless bums, it just goes to show how special cores that win multiple cups really are through stark comparison.

 

[Riptide]

Not really. The pens got abused tonight without Crosby... Just not on the scoreboard. I'll take it.

Pretty much. I wouldn't bank on us going to far without getting Crosby back. It will be hard enough without Letang.

 

[Juicy Pop]

So if pens close out series without Crosby/Letang it proves that superstars deserve to get credit for team success?

Wouldn't that say the opposite and prove that it's a team game and not on anyone individual?

:s

It's almost as if the thinly veiled premise of this thread is self-defeating.

 

[The Noot]

*Looks at OP*
*Looks at thread title*
*Looks at OP's avatar*

This is a disguised Toews thread, isn't it?

 

[unknown33]

Isn't it exactly the opposite if PIT manage to win without Crosby/Letang?

 

[VirginiaBob]

Pens are winning without Crosby/Letang, but keep in mind.... they are playing the choker Caps.

 

[Pestilence]

*Looks at OP*
*Looks at thread title*
*Looks at OP's avatar*

This is a disguised Toews thread, isn't it?

 

[The Shovel Penguin]

Coaching matters, too. It's not everything, but a team with players buying into him can outplay a more "complete" team on paper.

 

[Addison Rae]

Ovechkin's playoff stats are better than Toews but you're right, Toews should get credit for winning Cups while Ovechkin should get knocked for his lack of cups.

Literally no knowledgable hockey fan would argue that Toews is or ever was better than Ovechkin.

To be fair to Toews though, he does a lot more than scoring, he's been a tremendous two way player throughout his career. He's won 3 cups with Micheal Handzus, Dave Bolland and Brad Richards as the centre behind him.

I hate when anyone compares Toews to guys like Malkin, Crosby and Ovechkin but he's still an excellent player who has been a significant part of his teams accolades.

 

[TorstenFrings]

Coaching matters, too. It's not everything, but a team with players buying into him can outplay a more "complete" team on paper.

I was going to say the same thing. For the Pens it seems to be coaching that is the key, because a) they used to find ways to lose with a lot of the same core and b) it's not some key guy constantly stepping up. There is no Captain Clutch saving everyone. There is another hero every night. Some times it is Malkin, Crosby or Letang, sometimes it's Rust, Schultz and Cullen. Currently it is Fleury. C) Many of the guys stepping up, where already deemed unable to do it by other teams. Kessel, Daley, Bonino.

 

[BigEezyE22]

The Capitals are on paper an almost flawless team from top to bottom, including coaching. This is why the play the games.

If they can't beat this Pens team then maybe this core just wasn't meant to win a Stanley Cup. I can't see any way that they could get better next season save dropping Alzner (and maybe Orpik) and upgrading at 3C.

Why are Caps considered flawless in coaching? Trotz never won anything.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Pittsburgh has a true #1D in Letang. Not as complete as some (he's brutal on the PP), but he doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves.

Letang is a number one but he's not what I consider a high end, elite number one like the other names I mentioned.

Again though, Pittsburgh is a unique case of having one of the best center duos of all time.

Mike Greene?

Offensive genius in prime, but not the type of elite #1 defencemen I'm referring to. The other guys you want on the ice in every single situation.

They're not really lacking anything.

Washington has never had a Duncan Keith during these years.

 

[Stephen]

As a neutral fan, this is absolutely the time to be celebrating a guy like Jonathan Toews. Those are real accomplishments that should be valued more than glamorous regular season numbers.

 

[Human]

Letang is a number one but he's not what I consider a high end, elite number one like the other names I mentioned.

Again though, Pittsburgh is a unique case of having one of the best center duos of all time.



Offensive genius in prime, but not the type of elite #1 defencemen I'm referring to. The other guys you want on the ice in every single situation.



Washington has never had a Duncan Keith during these years.

If you don't think Letang is a high-end #1 D-man, you haven't watched much hockey for the last several seasons.

I said this before, Kris Letang is the most underrated player in hockey.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Ovie has been fine, I've been less than impressed with Backstrom, but Holtby, man...

OP is getting accused of making this a veiled Toews thread. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but at the end of the day your best players really, really need to play like it. I think Ovie and Backstrom are playing well but they're clearly nowhere near as dominant as Crosby was and Malkin/Kessel are now. That and Holtby deciding to "Munson" this series are the biggest difference makers here IMO

 

[Stephen]

Ovie flat out sucks. He plays like a highly predictable video game which works in the regular season but not in the playoffs. Throw 1-3 big show hits, waits for the one timer at the top of the face off circle on special teams, and tries those little gallops to the net followed up by a half hearted low wrister like 75% of the time. He is playing his signature playoff/big game game right now, not sure why he looks so confused.

 

[JaegerDice]

It's almost as if the thinly veiled premise of this thread is self-defeating.

Hardly.

The Penguins depth is not significantly deeper nor significantly more talented than the depth on the Capitals, and short of Guentzel, the bulk of the damage through this series has been done by Pittsburgh's [remaining] key players rather than their supporting cast.

This is a matter of certain key players getting it done, again, and another group of key players failing to get it done, again.

Washington has never had a Duncan Keith during these years.

True. And while a Duncan Keith caliber defensemen may very well be necessary to scale the mountain to a CUP, I don't think anybody would sensibly argue a Duncan Keith caliber dman is necessary to simply make it past the 2nd round.

Many teams without that elite #1D have at LEAST made it that far, and the Penguins are about to do it with their #1D injured.

 

[Stephen]

Enough Cinderella teams prove you don't need elite, elite pieces to get past the second round, but you do have to be somewhat deficient to do what Washington has done for a decade now.

 

[Sleepy]

The Capitals are on paper an almost flawless team from top to bottom, including coaching.

God no. Not even close. I mean, if your definition of flawless coaching is Trotz you must think there's ~10 flawless coaches in the NHL. And I'd argue that with just about every line and pairing on the caps. All good, none flawless.

Trotz is good, but c'mon man. The caps are really good, but flawless? Is this just an attempted "LOL CHOKERZ" setup narrative?


If you want a flawless team, it starts with having guys like the Ducks Pronger and Niedermeier anchoring your backend, Av's Roy in net, and three top lines like a Crosby/Malkin/Kessel forward corps. In no way is a "flawless" team a bunch of "very goods" + Ovechkin.

 

[wgknestrick]

The Capitals are on paper an almost flawless team from top to bottom, including coaching. This is why the play the games.

If they can't beat this Pens team then maybe this core just wasn't meant to win a Stanley Cup. I can't see any way that they could get better next season save dropping Alzner (and maybe Orpik) and upgrading at 3C.

Any team that on paper plays Orpik 17min/game and tolerates him being a -7 in 10 games with a 25% GF% is nothing. Also said team has Alzner.

WSH's 3C is not the problem, nor their goalie, nor their scoring depth. Their team 5v5 play is a joke and they only have 1 single + player (Nate Schmidt) on their roster. You aren't going to win many games relying on the PP as the only means to outscore your opponents.

This is due to their coach being a moron. with no neck. That roster under Sullivan, Laviolette, Quenneville, or Babcock would beat PIT.

 

[JaegerDice]

God no. Not even close. I mean, if your definition of flawless coaching is Trotz you must think there's ~10 flawless coaches in the NHL. And I'd argue that with just about every line and pairing on the caps. All good, none flawless.

Trotz is good, but c'mon man. The caps are really good, but flawless? Is this just an attempted "LOL CHOKERZ" setup narrative?


If you want a flawless team, it starts with having guys like the Ducks Pronger and Niedermeier anchoring your backend, Av's Roy in net, and three top lines like a Crosby/Malkin/Kessel forward corps. In no way is a "flawless" team a bunch of "very goods" + Ovechkin.

I could agree with this argument if the Penguins were at full strength.

It's an argument I bought last season. The Capitals were great, they ran into a team that was just a little greater in every regard, and lost.

That team has since lost Letang, Murray, Crosby and Sheary.

Is the Capitals depth now, worse than the Penguins depth?

Is the Capitals D now, still worse than the Penguins D?

Or does the difference come from the core?

 

[LarKing]

Hardly.

The Penguins depth is not significantly deeper nor significantly more talented than the depth on the Capitals, and short of Guentzel, the bulk of the damage through this series has been done by Pittsburgh's [remaining] key players rather than their supporting cast.

This is a matter of certain key players getting it done, again, and another group of key players failing to get it done, again.




True. And while a Duncan Keith caliber defensemen may very well be necessary to scale the mountain to a CUP, I don't think anybody would sensibly argue a Duncan Keith caliber dman is necessary to simply make it past the 2nd round.

Many teams without that elite #1D have at LEAST made it that far, and the Penguins are about to do it with their #1D injured.

This really isn't true. You're making it seem like Washington's key forwards aren't doing anything and are getting dominated by Pittsburgh's key forwards and the depth isn't making a difference in this series. Here's how it actually looks though in terms of pure point production:

Pens:

6 points - Guentzel
5 points - Malkin
4 points - Kessel, Schultz, Crosby
3 points - Cullen, Hornqvist, Maatta
2 points - Cole
1 point - Bonino, Kunitz, Wilson
0 points - Duoulin, Sheary, Kuhnhackl, Hagelin, Hainsey, Daley, Rust, Rowney

Caps:

4 points - Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Ovechkin
3 points - Williams, Oshie
2 points - Niskanen, Shattenkirk, Johansson
1 point - Schmidt, Eller
0 points - Carlson, Burakovsky, Winnik, Beagle, Alzner, Wilson, Carey, Orlov, Orpik


So, we have Guentzel outproducing everyone as not a core player. Then we have Malkin with 5 points, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kessel, Kuznetsov, Crosby (in 3 games) as core players with 4 points. Schultz with 4 points as a non core players. Pittsburgh with one more non core player in the 3 points category. Washington with 2 more in the non core 2 points group. Pittsburgh with one more in the one point and one less in the zero points group.

Amongst the team's big forwards that would generally be considered their core:
Pittsburgh: 13 points (one less game for Crosby)
Washington: 12 points (or 11 if you want Oshie here instead of Kuznetsov)

Guentzel and Schultz alone have 10 points. Washington's next best two combine for 6 points. Then Pittsburgh's next two combine for 6 points while Washington's hits 4 points. Or for an easier way to look at it:

Pittsburgh's core forwards: 13 points
Washington's core forwards: 12 points

Pittsburgh's depth: 24 points
Washington's depth: 14 points

Pittsburgh's depth is dominating Washington's in terms of pure point production. I do think Pittsburgh's core forwards are outplaying Washington's but I'd say their depth and better goaltending are having far more of an impact on this series thus far than their stars outplaying Washington's stars.