The PIT/WSH series is a reminder of why key players get credit for team success

[JaegerDice]

Winning the Stanley Cup is hard.

Yes, it's a team achievement. No one player wins a cup. Absolutely true.

But you know what? A lot of great ****ing teams don't win cups. A lot of great players, surrounded by great talent on those great teams don't win Stanley Cups.

Washington is as deep a team as you can imagine, backed by a Vezina-winning and currently Vezina nominated goalie.

They drew the 8th seed, and now they're facing off against a team that tonight did not ice their #1 Center, their #1 Defensemen, or their #1 Goaltender.

And they still found a way to lose.



The core? Elite.

The talent surrounding the core? Talented and deep.

The goalie? Very good to great.

The matchup? The hockey gods literally could not do more for you within the current (albeit very stupid) playoff system.

And the Caps are going to lose.



So yeah, when the key players on teams like PIT, or LAK, or CHI find ways to win again and again and again in the modern NHL, you're damn right that factors into evaluating them against their peers. It can't be, shouldn't be, and isn't the only thing considered, but it should damn well be considered.

It's very easy to say 'oh, well player X doesn't get there without the team around him'. Yeah, and any number of players with teams just as good or better than player X, didn't even get close, let alone climb the mountain multiple times.

Because in the NHL it's a lot easier and more likely for a great team to lose out on a cup multiple times, through an entire era, than it is for a great team to win one, let alone two or three.

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[JackFr]

The Capitals are on paper an almost flawless team from top to bottom, including coaching. This is why the play the games.

If they can't beat this Pens team then maybe this core just wasn't meant to win a Stanley Cup. I can't see any way that they could get better next season save dropping Alzner (and maybe Orpik) and upgrading at 3C.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Morgan Reilly

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Is the piece that Washington has always missed an elite #1 D?

Their defence core as a whole has often been very impressive and deep, but basically with a bunch of guys you'd want as your #2-4.

There's never been a Keith, Doughty, Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger/Niedermayer, etc.

Yeah, I know Pitt has never had that Norris winning guy either, but they've had an all-time level center duo to help offset that.

I've rooted for Washington to win the last few years, but they just don't seem to have it.

 

[Tripod]

Seems like a "Toews deserves all the credit" thread to me.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

This will turn into a Toews thread verrry quickly.

Gonzo, Toews era where are you?

 

[LarKing]

Ovechkin's playoff stats are better than Toews but you're right, Toews should get credit for winning Cups while Ovechkin should get knocked for his lack of cups.

 

[Church Hill]

Any hockey game at the NHL level is mostly decided by luck. If it wasn't, there'd be no point to play a 7 game series. And even still the variance is very high.

Consider this: If the Capitals beat some playoff team 60% of the time (which is actually quite high), then they still have a ~29% chance of losing a 7 game series in ANY GIVEN YEAR. That means that even if the Caps beat every team in the playoffs 60% of the time, they only have a ~25% chance of winning the cup.

Granted, the Capitals won 67% of their games this regular season. But that was half against non-playoff teams. It'd be interesting to see their win % against playoff teams. Either way, in that case, the numbers become ~18% to lose any series and only ~45% chance to win the cup.

 

[LarKing]

This will turn into a Toews thread verrry quickly.

Gonzo, Toews era where are you?

Turn into one? Please, Toews' name doesn't need to be specifically mentioned for anyone to realize who the OP is talking about here.

 

[canadianguy77]

Ovechkin's playoff stats are better than Toews but you're right, Toews should get credit for winning Cups while Ovechkin should get knocked for his lack of cups.

There's an actual whole other game away from the puck that Ovechkin just refuses to play with any sort of regularity. Doesn't help that he's the captain and doesn't give 100% on defense either. Other players, especially younger one will take his lead.

 

[The Toews Era*]

There's an actual whole other game away from the puck that Ovechkin just refuses to play with any sort of regularity. Doesn't help that he's the captain and doesn't give 100% on defense either. Other players, especially younger one will take his lead.

No no, all of hockey should be reduced to points per game. And the more on the power play the better. Unless its an hfboards romanticized player, in which case a low playoff points per game can be excused or rationalized - late bloomer, injuries, etc.

 

[edog37]

The Capitals are on paper an almost flawless team from top to bottom, including coaching. This is why the play the games.

If they can't beat this Pens team then maybe this core just wasn't meant to win a Stanley Cup. I can't see any way that they could get better next season save dropping Alzner (and maybe Orpik) and upgrading at 3C.

I don't get all this love for Trotz. He has never gone beyond the second round either. He's an average to slightly above average coach at best...

 

[LarKing]

There's an actual whole other game away from the puck that Ovechkin just refuses to play with any sort of regularity. Doesn't help that he's the captain and doesn't give 100% on defense either. Other players, especially younger one will take his lead.

A. I did not say anything about Ovechkin's defensive game, very impressive strawman

B. Ovechkin is fine defensively, I'm not sure why this stupid myth is still being spread

 

[Riptide]

They drew the 8th seed, and now they're facing off against a team that tonight did not ice their #1 Center, their #1 Defensemen, or their #1 Goaltender.

And they still found a way to lose.

Not to mention their 4th leading scorer in Sheary (although his playoffs have been meh at best - but still another skilled body on a team that's in need of some skill with their current injuries).

 

[Riptide]

Is the piece that Washington has always missed an elite #1 D?

Their defence core as a whole has often been very impressive and deep, but basically with a bunch of guys you'd want as your #2-4.

There's never been a Keith, Doughty, Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger/Niedermayer, etc.

Yeah, I know Pitt has never had that Norris winning guy either, but they've had an all-time level center duo to help offset that.

I've rooted for Washington to win the last few years, but they just don't seem to have it.

Pittsburgh has a true #1D in Letang. Not as complete as some (he's brutal on the PP), but he doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves. And not only is Pittsburgh winning without him - they're doing so without being able to backfill the 7.25m he's costing them.

Washington's issues have absolutely nothing to do with them not having a true #1D. If that really was the case, they'd be winning this series right now - or at the absolute very least tied after they took out Crosby.

Their issues are much deeper then that - and it starts right at the top with Ovechkin and his frequent ability to disappear in key games.

 

[Riptide]

A. I did not say anything about Ovechkin's defensive game, very impressive strawman

B. Ovechkin is fine defensively, I'm not sure why this stupid myth is still being spread

Illustrated with his amazing hard back checking on Pits 2nd goal tonight.

He can backcheck (and actually did so later in the game - I was shocked), but it doesn't happen nearly often enough.

 

[fashi13]

Pittsburgh has a true #1D in Letang. Not as complete as some (he's brutal on the PP), but he doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves. And not only is Pittsburgh winning without him - they're doing so without being able to backfill the 7.25m he's costing them.

Washington's issues have absolutely nothing to do with them not having a true #1D. If that really was the case, they'd be winning this series right now - or at the absolute very least tied after they took out Crosby.

Their issues are much deeper then that - and it starts right at the top with Ovechkin and his frequent ability to disappear in key games.

I'm a huge caps fan, but their issues have a lot more to do with low hockey IQ, inability to raise the effort level in the playoffs, and other "between the ears" issues. They also refuse to take the opportunities to drive to the net with the puck or shoot when presented with clear opportunities. The playoffs are different and many of their players refuse to change their games.

 

[Bumpus]

Winning the Stanley Cup is hard.

Yes, it's a team achievement. No one player wins a cup. Absolutely true.

But you know what? A lot of great ****ing teams don't win cups. A lot of great players, surrounded by great talent on those great teams don't win Stanley Cups.

Washington is as deep a team as you can imagine, backed by a Vezina-winning and currently Vezina nominated goalie.

They drew the 8th seed, and now they're facing off against a team that tonight did not ice their #1 Center, their #1 Defensemen, or their #1 Goaltender.

And they still found a way to lose.



The core? Elite.

The talent surrounding the core? Talented and deep.

The goalie? Very good to great.

The matchup? The hockey gods literally could not do more for you within the current (albeit very stupid) playoff system.

And the Caps are going to lose.



So yeah, when the key players on teams like PIT, or LAK, or CHI find ways to win again and again and again in the modern NHL, you're damn right that factors into evaluating them against their peers. It can't be, shouldn't be, and isn't the only thing considered, but it should damn well be considered.

It's very easy to say 'oh, well player X doesn't get there without the team around him'. Yeah, and any number of players with teams just as good or better than player X, didn't even get close, let alone climb the mountain multiple times.

Because in the NHL it's a lot easier and more likely for a great team to lose out on a cup multiple times, through an entire era, than it is for a great team to win one, let alone two or three.

Either the Caps found a way to lose, or we simply found a way to win.

I know my opinion.

 

[Whoot Whoot]

Is the piece that Washington has always missed an elite #1 D?

Their defence core as a whole has often been very impressive and deep, but basically with a bunch of guys you'd want as your #2-4.

There's never been a Keith, Doughty, Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger/Niedermayer, etc.

Yeah, I know Pitt has never had that Norris winning guy either, but they've had an all-time level center duo to help offset that.

I've rooted for Washington to win the last few years, but they just don't seem to have it.

Mike Greene?

 

[GreatSaveLuongo]

The reason is Fleury right?

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

I don't how much of the blame can be laid at the feet of the core seeing as there's a pretty high turnover of roster players meaning that the core might be quite different in a span of two or three seasons.

 

[canadianguy77]

A. I did not say anything about Ovechkin's defensive game, very impressive strawman

Exactly.

 

[777]

So if pens close out series without Crosby/Letang it proves that superstars deserve to get credit for team success?

Wouldn't that say the opposite and prove that it's a team game and not on anyone individual?

:s

 

[c9777666]

Pittsburgh is their eternal albatross.

This is like Montreal and the Bruins until 1988 when the Habs ALWAYS won.

The Bruins had a lot of good teams, but everytime they faces Les Habs, the Canadiens always won when it mattered in the spring.

 

[JaegerDice]

Either the Caps found a way to lose, or we simply found a way to win.

I know my opinion.

Thats understandable. I'd likely have the same opinion in your shoes as a fan.

As a neutral though, this feels more like [yet another] choke by the Caps to me.