Confirmed with Link: The Ottawa Senators Sale - PART 2

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DaveMatthew

Bring in Peter
Apr 13, 2005
14,507
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Ott
Really. I guess I was never a student then. I’ll give you an example.

I know a couple in Whitby who are both elementary teachers. Matt teaches science and is incredibly dedicated, forest field trips, collects samples for his classes, can’t wait to get to the school. Lisa does nothing but the bare minimum and starts counting down to summer on day 1 of class, uses a lot of questionable sick days and does nothing but complain about students and their parents. In my experience, there are far more Lisa’s than Matt’s.

I may not have kids but I have 17 nieces and nephews ranging in age from 4-25 with a range of special needs to gifted students. I’ve been exposed to plenty of the challenges faced in the education system in Ontario.

I will agree that there was definitely a "lure" in the early to late 00's for the teaching profession. A lot of people I went to university with, when they didn't really know what to do, ended up in teacher's college. Not because they were excited about teaching, but because they thought it was a secure, well-paying job that had summers off.

The good news is 10-15 years later, a lot of these people are no longer teachers.

Also, my wife is a teacher (mid-30's). Her mom is a teacher, and her aunts are all teachers. I will say that older teachers happily shit on younger teachers in terms of their dedication and desire to actually teach. But that probably happens between old and young in every profession.

The one thing that does always make me laugh, though, is how all the teachers I know make writing report cards seem like writing a 10,000 word dissertation about nuclear fusion. You'd think it's the hardest thing in the world. It's like no one else in any other job has to do paperwork...
 
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Senscore

Let's keep it cold
Nov 19, 2012
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Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,347
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I think we have finally got to curing cancer.

SOA's Variety is accepting donations to this cause now.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
16,130
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Really. I guess I was never a student then. I’ll give you an example.

I know a couple in Whitby who are both elementary teachers. Matt teaches science and is incredibly dedicated, forest field trips, collects samples for his classes, can’t wait to get to the school. Lisa does nothing but the bare minimum and starts counting down to summer on day 1 of class, uses a lot of questionable sick days and does nothing but complain about students and their parents. In my experience, there are far more Lisa’s than Matt’s.

I may not have kids but I have 17 nieces and nephews ranging in age from 4-25 with a range of special needs to gifted students. I’ve been exposed to plenty of the challenges faced in the education system in Ontario.
Well your initial comment was calling grade 1 and 2 teachers glorified baby sitters. That probably doesn't sit well with some people.

Like I said, there are both good and bad in any profession. Sounds like that's what you know in Lisa and Matt.

I have 4 kids, two of whom are profoundly gifted, one of my other two is a special needs teacher. I've been to hundreds of parent teacher interviews and it's my experience that there's more Matt's than Lisa's.

Unfortunately we can't fire the Lisa's and replace them with Matt's. The unions ensure that.
 

otown

Registered User
Sep 4, 2009
1,243
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I think you will find that most private schools offer better curriculum like IB. It's part of the reason for their existence.
Public schools can offer both IB and AP courses also. Colonel By for example.
The main difference between Private and Public schools is that Private schools have much lower class sizes and they can screen every student who is admitted. The ability to be selective has its benefits!
It is a different ball game!
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

Registered User
Oct 16, 2006
15,373
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Yukon
I know so many teachers who work alot less then 37.5. Also, just being in a building doesn't automatically constitute work. Union takes away all accountability.

There is a reason they get paid so little.

Those who can't, teach.
That's a rather ignorant view imo, but you're entitled to it.
 
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Beech

Cicc' a porta
Nov 25, 2020
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I think we have finally got to curing cancer.

SOA's Variety is accepting donations to this cause now.
no... lease portions of your house for 50 years for the SOA foundation. Charge $20/ft squared and escalating at 3% per year.

SOA foundation being a charity, gets tax write offs.

You donate the large portions of the lease money to the SOA foundation. You get a tax credit.

You appoint yourself chairman of SOA foundation. Zero salary.... You pay no taxes... The foundation pays your travel, living and operating expenses.

Some of these benefits are taxed... but with no salary, your tax base will be LOW. Many expenses, when they are 100% SOA foundation based (Which should be near 100%), will in fact be tax free.

NOW... you find every sympathetic media guy. And you pound away at government... they rush in and make millions in donations to SOA foundation.

Now.. you don't need anyone to actually donate to SOA.,.. the government will...well, we will but HEY!!!
You roll everything into bullshit tax structures and you spend the money with impunity

at the end, we award you the Governor General award as a great Canadian. ... It comes with a beautiful medal with a nice Blue Sash..
 

GCK

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
15,738
9,949
Well your initial comment was calling grade 1 and 2 teachers glorified baby sitters. That probably doesn't sit well with some people.

Like I said, there are both good and bad in any profession. Sounds like that's what you know in Lisa and Matt.

I have 4 kids, two of whom are profoundly gifted, one of my other two is a special needs teacher. I've been to hundreds of parent teacher interviews and it's my experience that there's more Matt's than Lisa's.

Unfortunately we can't fire the Lisa's and replace them with Matt's. The unions ensure that.
My last comment on this subject is Teacher Unions are absolutely the most disingenuous groups ever. They’re advertising and public statements leading into collective bargaining talks about putting children first and saving the education system. I am of the opinion that going on strike to get higher wages is the antithesis of putting students first.
 
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Beech

Cicc' a porta
Nov 25, 2020
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That's not how any of that math works.
so a teacher today and for large portions of recent hiostory (Post 19960 or so). teach from the age of 23-55.. that is 32 years.

Average life expectancy is 84 for women, 82 for men (as of 2017...it may have climbed 1 year since).
so a teacher that retired at 55 lives for almost 28 years.

teach 32, retire 28...... Almost 1:1

So...at this moment if we have 100,000 teachers... or whatever the exact number... we have 100,000 retired teachers.

those teaching are making 100 K/year... those retired are making pension earnings, generated 30 years earlier and are probably what????? give me a guess 50 K/year.

So.. at this moment, we have to pay 100 K for a presently working teacher and 50 K for a retired one.

150 K / year ... at 100,000 teachers... that is drum role please... 15 billion....

Ontario budget 205 billion... teachers account for 7%....now add nurses at 7% and so on.....

And we wonder why we have deteriorating roads......

just to make you feel better.. there are 127,000 teachers in Ontario (High school and elementary only). We have not touched higher education and administration workers and support staff in education.

And here I am wanting to not have my wife die after 10 days in a hospital with piss f*** service and treatment. I am so sorry for being unreasonable.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,768
4,184
Ottawa
Really. I guess I was never a student then. I’ll give you an example.

I know a couple in Whitby who are both elementary teachers. Matt teaches science and is incredibly dedicated, forest field trips, collects samples for his classes, can’t wait to get to the school. Lisa does nothing but the bare minimum and starts counting down to summer on day 1 of class, uses a lot of questionable sick days and does nothing but complain about students and their parents. In my experience, there are far more Lisa’s than Matt’s.

I may not have kids but I have 17 nieces and nephews ranging in age from 4-25 with a range of special needs to gifted students. I’ve been exposed to plenty of the challenges faced in the education system in Ontario.
I like the reality you live in where this good employee bad employee thing isn't happening in every industry.

The problem is, your understanding of the structural issues that affect the school system in Ontario is severely lacking. You don't have enough information to really have a valuable opinion on the subject beyond your personal disdain for what you must think are freeloading indolents who have it too good. You are, of course, welcome to enjoy any opinions that you like but that doesn't make them right.

I mean, even the fact that you think Grade 1 and 2 teachers are glorified babysitters is pretty much all anyone needs to know about the validity of your opinion. Let alone the rest of whatever it is you think you're saying. Again, you're entitled to your opinion. However, entitlement does not equal reason.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

🇨🇦🔑🧲✈️🎲🥅🎱🍟🥨🌗
Sep 23, 2015
8,077
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Biden is a union supporter and suddenly a anti-neoliberal politicians because he knows the only way to increase real life wages is to have strong unions that battle for advantages and wages.

He is a union supporter, only in the sense that the most Union leaderships endorsed him on 2020, but many of the actual union members did not.


Too many Union Leaders negotiated their members jobs away over the past three or four decades, by pricing their jobs out of the market.

1000s of jobs in the (for example) in the pulp & paper industry are no longer in North America, but in many countries in Asia.

Politicians of all parties sat by and watched the exodus of blue collar manufacturing jobs flee to Asia, and to Mexico…. But every politician “supports” Unions come election time.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,768
4,184
Ottawa
so a teacher today and for large portions of recent hiostory (Post 19960 or so). teach from the age of 23-55.. that is 32 years.

Average life expectancy is 84 for women, 82 for men (as of 2017...it may have climbed 1 year since).
so a teacher that retired at 55 lives for almost 28 years.

teach 32, retire 28...... Almost 1:1

So...at this moment if we have 100,000 teachers... or whatever the exact number... we have 100,000 retired teachers.

those teaching are making 100 K/year... those retired are making pension earnings, generated 30 years earlier and are probably what????? give me a guess 50 K/year.

So.. at this moment, we have to pay 100 K for a presently working teacher and 50 K for a retired one.

150 K / year ... at 100,000 teachers... that is drum role please... 15 billion....

Ontario budget 205 billion... teachers account for 7%....now add nurses at 7% and so on.....

And we wonder why we have deteriorating roads......

just to make you feel better.. there are 127,000 teachers in Ontario (High school and elementary only). We have not touched higher education and administration workers and support staff in education.

And here I am wanting to not have my wife die after 10 days in a hospital with piss f*** service and treatment. I am so sorry for being unreasonable.
Your math is still wrong. Your baseline numbers are wrong. You don't seem to understand how pensions work and get paid out. And none of this has anything to do with the poor state of the healthcare sector. Robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't mean that you made everyone square.

Spend some time on Google understanding what age teachers generally retire at (85 factor is helpful), how much the government contributes to each individual pension plan, how the OTPP invests the pension fund to generate returns, how much the average teacher in Ontario makes, etc.

Another thing: generally speaking, roads are under the jurisdiction of municipalities to maintain with the funds collected from property taxes and fuel surcharges primarily allotted to accomplish that task. Paying public sector employees has nothing to do with road condition issues. Sounds like you're upset about something that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand but is often symptomatic of someone making an ill-informed argument.
 

Beech

Cicc' a porta
Nov 25, 2020
2,876
982
Your math is still wrong. Your baseline numbers are wrong. You don't seem to understand how pensions work and get paid out. And none of this has anything to do with the poor state of the healthcare sector. Robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't mean that you made everyone square.

Spend some time on Google understanding what age teachers generally retire at (85 factor is helpful), how much the government contributes to each individual pension plan, how the OTPP invests the pension fund to generate returns, how much the average teacher in Ontario makes, etc.

Another thing: generally speaking, roads are under the jurisdiction of municipalities to maintain with the funds collected from property taxes and fuel surcharges primarily allotted to accomplish that task. Paying public sector employees has nothing to do with road condition issues. Sounds like you're upset about something that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand but is often symptomatic of someone making an ill-informed argument.
if you think pensions are truly dollars stashed somewhere.... are you kidding?????

pensions are paper dollars.. when due, they are paid from taxes here and now.

and municipalities have their own public sector employees to pay and pay pensions too... Ottawa has one of the largest public sectors... I heard this from someone who worked in the Mayors office.

Governments at all levels have been using themselves as unemployment solutions for decades... Then they sat back and watched unions become stronger and stronger... and with it came escalating salaries, perks and pensions...

Future generations will be unable to pay the tab for salaries and pensions. Less more reasonable outlays, less dramatic reductions in numbers of present workers, in perks, salaries and pension dole out. The system will break.

This goes beyond teachers... We should not be using them as the whipping boys.. This must go to all government and pseudo-government employees.

The public sector cannot continue to grow and do so in the fashion that it has the last 50 plus years.. a tipping point will be reached.

Now this is not an issue for HockeyDB or the sale of the Sens... but for society as a whole.

As it applies to the Sale..we have a choice, pay 400-600 M for an arena. Then add leases, then add all sorts of "aide".. So that the tab ends up being almost 1 B in 20 years...Or use that money elsewhere??????? IRONICALY ENOUGH DAVE.. the elsewhere may be to stock pile the pension funds.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,768
4,184
Ottawa
if you think pensions are truly dollars stashed somewhere.... are you kidding?????

pensions are paper dollars.. when due, they are paid from taxes here and now.

and municipalities have their own public sector employees to pay and pay pensions too... Ottawa has one of the largest public sectors... I heard this from someone who worked in the Mayors office.

Governments at all levels have been using themselves as unemployment solutions for decades... Then they sat back and watched unions become stronger and stronger... and with it came escalating salaries, perks and pensions...

Future generations will be unable to pay the tab for salaries and pensions. Less more reasonable outlays, less dramatic reductions in numbers of present workers, in perks, salaries and pension dole out. The system will break.

This goes beyond teachers... We should not be using them as the whipping boys.. This must go to all government and pseudo-government employees.

The public sector cannot continue to grow and do so in the fashion that it has the last 50 plus years.. a tipping point will be reached.


Now this is not an issue for HockeyDB or the sale of the Sens... but for society as a whole.

As it applies to the Sale..we have a choice, pay 400-600 M for an arena. Then add leases, then add all sorts of "aide".. So that the tab ends up being almost 1 B in 20 years...Or use that money elsewhere??????? IRONICALY ENOUGH DAVE.. the elsewhere may be to stock pile the pension funds.
The OTPP manages $245B+ in assets. No, not all of it is cash on hand. Probably because, oh I don't know, they're building pensions today that pay out in 30 years? Again, your lack of knowledge on this subject is almost staggering for someone who insists on speaking so definitively about it.

Do you even know how much the average yearly contribution is per teacher to their pension plan? Do you know what the split is of payroll deduction and employer matching? I can't imagine you do because you keep insisting that these $50K pensions are paid from the current pool of tax revenue, for some mystifying reason.

The bolded part of your post...what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Can we start a new thread for teachers and pensions and other miscellaneous stuff that has nothing to do with hockey. Oh wait, there's a thread for that?
Are you worried that any new tidbits of the pending sale will somehow be so discreet that you miss them? Or what exactly are you missing from this thread that hasn't already been covered 20x over the last 6 months?
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
22,810
11,138
The OTPP manages $245B+ in assets. No, not all of it is cash on hand. Probably because, oh I don't know, they're building pensions today that pay out in 30 years? Again, your lack of knowledge on this subject is almost staggering for someone who insists on speaking so definitively about it.

Do you even know how much the average yearly contribution is per teacher to their pension plan? Do you know what the split is of payroll deduction and employer matching? I can't imagine you do because you keep insisting that these $50K pensions are paid from the current pool of tax revenue, for some mystifying reason.

The bolded part of your post...what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?


Are you worried that any new tidbits of the pending sale will somehow be so discreet that you miss them? Or what exactly are you missing from this thread that hasn't already been covered 20x over the last 6 months?
Yes, the Ontario government matches what the employee contributes, around 10.4% of salary.
 

Sun God Nika

Palestine <3.
Apr 22, 2013
19,922
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The OTPP manages $245B+ in assets. No, not all of it is cash on hand. Probably because, oh I don't know, they're building pensions today that pay out in 30 years? Again, your lack of knowledge on this subject is almost staggering for someone who insists on speaking so definitively about it.

Do you even know how much the average yearly contribution is per teacher to their pension plan? Do you know what the split is of payroll deduction and employer matching? I can't imagine you do because you keep insisting that these $50K pensions are paid from the current pool of tax revenue, for some mystifying reason.

The bolded part of your post...what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?


Are you worried that any new tidbits of the pending sale will somehow be so discreet that you miss them? Or what exactly are you missing from this thread that hasn't already been covered 20x over the last 6 months?

This thread is to discuss what little tidbits we get. We have a misc thread . Let this thread fall down and when ownership news does come this thread will come back up with relevant discussion.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,367
8,168
Victoria
I think you will find that most private schools offer better curriculum like IB. It's part of the reason for their existence.
Not here they don’t. Kids need a dog wood to graduate high school and all the big private schools teach their kids same BC curriculum.

IB also isn’t a better curriculum, the reason for its existence is to have some sort of international standard for international private school kids trying to get into universities all over the planet.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,367
8,168
Victoria
My last comment on this subject is Teacher Unions are absolutely the most disingenuous groups ever. They’re advertising and public statements leading into collective bargaining talks about putting children first and saving the education system. I am of the opinion that going on strike to get higher wages is the antithesis of putting students first.
Then you would be wrong. by far the most important thing to teachers over the years out here has been class size and composition, meaning fewer students (under 30), and a limited number of designated students who need EA support. Having a moderate wage increases that still doesn’t keep up with inflation is called lower wages over time.

The last liberal government in BC (actually the conservative government out here) made an agreement to lower class size and composition to end job action (after saving millions of dollars by not paying teachers during the strike). Then they promptly renegged after the deal was signed and teachers were back in the classroom, and left the teacher’s association to take them all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada on appeals before they adhered to their signed agreement (by that time it was the NDP government that was left holding that steaming bag).

(SCC publicly blasted the provincial government for their immoral behaviour).

They also froze all public service wages for years, then ok’d 1% raises…. Then voted themselves a wage increase in the final sitting before summer (passed across all parties in a vote surprisingly).

But they saved money for almost a decade of litigation by not having to hire more teachers, and hire more EA for that whole time. The next government had to open the flood gates and fix the whole mess To the original deals terms, as the end of the deal neared once again. Definitely makes for happy negotiations right?

To me it sounds like you have no idea how a teacher’s association works, no idea what the real world job factors are, or what teachers push for most. You also seem to have no idea of what a school community is like, or what the relationships are between teachers and the student body. Teacher’s care, and they spend more time with our kids than most parents do.

Sounds like classic union hating from the private sector worker after listening to government propaganda in the media during job action. Hating on job perks they don’t have, while failing to understand and enjoy the ones they do have thanks to unionized work.

Crabs in a bucket. I’m inclined to always support my fellow workers, private or public because we’re all sliding back down the hill for the most part.
 
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StittsvilleJames

Registered User
Apr 17, 2012
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Ottawa
This thread is to discuss what little tidbits we get. We have a misc thread . Let this thread fall down and when ownership news does come this thread will come back up with relevant discussion.
Exactly. Do we not have mods for the Ottawa forums? This is ridiculous.
 

FunkySeeFunkyDoo

Registered User
Feb 3, 2009
5,071
2,717
Ottawa
...

Also, if you think 2.6 is extremely wealthy for 2 people after 30 years of service in this economy I unno what to tell you, lol.
...

Note that $2.6M is just their pensions, if you click on the link you'd see that their total net worth is $5.6M ($6.8M in assets, $1.2M in debt).

And there are thousands of Canadians with similar educations and 30 years of work who would find your assertion that $2.6M is not a lot of money to be extremely entitled, if not outright offensive.
 
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