Confirmed with Link: The Ottawa Senators Sale - PART 2

[DueDiligence]

The private school teachers were non-unionized and (I was told) paid less than their public school counterparts.

But the difference in their attitude and commitment to the kids was astounding. Dramatically better.

I guess that kids coming from a much higher socio-economic class where basic things like having enough food to eat is never an issue has no bearing on what happens in class.

 

[Qward]

Are grade 1 teachers buying the team? I got here late.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Is it really not equally funded?

Uhm… well, private schools also get per student public funding, to go along with the private tuition funds collected.

Most also pay for extra curricular and coaching positions.

The also tend to avoid having poor kids, troubled kids, and special needs kids. As Mic said, they also keep class sizes small and have tons of classroom resources.

Curriculum is the same.

Are grade 1 teachers buying the team? I got here late.

Well teachers did own the leafs for a while…..

 

[GCK]

Are grade 1 teachers buying the team? I got here late.

Teachers Pension Plan may be a secret bidder.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

Based on how this Finals is going, I expect Bettman to announce "...Good news, GSP is suddenly expecting a good result on the sales of the Senators in 1 week vs. the 2 weeks I previously indicated."

 

[Silky Johnson]

thinking about it more the 1 billion price maybe isn’t so crazy

End of year 2019, just before covid, Forbes estimated the Penguins at 665 million and Ottawa at 445. This was shortly after Penguins back to back Cups and while #MelnykOut was going on. Two years later, in December 2021, the Penguins sell for 900 million - 35% more than the Forbes estimate. A 1 billion pricetag on the Sens would be a 25% increase on Forbes December 2022 estimate of 800 million.

Considering inflation, young team with key players signed long term (probably more exciting than an aging roster), and potential (non-arena) real estate opportunities that could open up it’s not really an absurd price.

1.2 does seem kinda high though

This is a very good example of why those valuations are BS. Things are worth what people will pay for them.

It seems like every time that is tested the Forbes valuations are proven wrong.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I've lived with two and they gave up a ton of their life outside of their actual attendance.

So many evenings lost while mine were free.

The one thing they did appreciate was their summers off, but the amount of winter evenings lost more than made up for that imo.

I know so many teachers who work alot less then 37.5. Also, just being in a building doesn't automatically constitute work. Union takes away all accountability.

There is a reason they get paid so little.

Those who can't, teach.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Uhm… well, private schools also get per student public funding, to go along with the private tuition funds collected.

Most also pay for extra curricular and coaching positions.

The also tend to avoid having poor kids, troubled kids, and special needs kids. As Mic said, they also keep class sizes small and have tons of classroom resources.

Curriculum is the same.


Well teachers did own the leafs for a while…..

I think you will find that most private schools offer better curriculum like IB. It's part of the reason for their existence.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I have multiple degrees and worked in multiple sectors in multiple countries.

Being an effective and passionate educator is the single most important thing for any society.

Extension of a parent/guardian, a counsellor, an educator, a hero etc.

A recent and very kindhearted colleague died, seeing multiple kids as young as 11 years old come alone to his funeral and stay for hours.. that's not a teacher, that's a superhero to those kids.

What we need is good policies and good vetting for good teachers. Aside from that, the passionate ones will always be underpaid.

 

[GCK]

I have multiple degrees and worked in multiple sectors in multiple countries.

Being an effective and passionate educator is the single most important thing for any society.

Extension of a parent/guardian, a counsellor, an educator, a hero etc.

A recent and very kindhearted colleague died, seeing multiple kids as young as 11 years old come alone to his funeral and stay for hours.. that's not a teacher, that's a superhero to those kids.

What we need is good policies and good vetting for good teachers. Aside from that, the passionate ones will always be underpaid.

100% agree that the good teachers deserve to be paid, there are far, far too many however that aren’t in it for the right reasons.

 

[Micklebot]

I think you will find that most private schools offer better curriculum like IB. It's part of the reason for their existence.

I mean, that's certainly the image of themselves they sell,

 

[JD1]

It’s not wrong when a technologist with a Science degree working nights, evenings and weekends in a hospital makes 85K without summers off. Face it Grade 1 and 2 teachers are glorified babysitters.

Pretty sure you mentioned along the way somewhere that you don't have kids right?

You're probably not the best person to weigh in on the subject of the value of teachers.

 

[JD1]

Like all professions, there are good and bad teachers. Just like there are good and bad cops, doctors, lawyers, and public servants.

I think a large part of the problem is unions in white collar environments. There isn't really an argument to be made for higher salaries and more benefits because those people that work in white collar unionized environments are well paid and have good benefits.

So what does that leave the unions to do? They're in the dog f***er protection business. They protect dog f***er's right to produce no work.

We can't implement standards in education because of unions fighting any form of assessment. We literally can't fire a public servant because of unions. And anyone that reads the news knows that cops can be convicted of crimes that get normal people fired but in the policing business you can assault women and keep on collecting that paycheque

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

It’s not wrong when a technologist with a Science degree working nights, evenings and weekends in a hospital makes 85K without summers off. Face it Grade 1 and 2 teachers are glorified babysitters.

Dude, I would do cartwheels to work for $85k a year. That's still an amazing salary (even in expensive Ottawa).

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

....

What we need is good policies and good vetting for good teachers. Aside from that, the passionate ones will always be underpaid.

The Globe and Mail does a weekly column called "Financial Facelift", which by and large is people who disclose their personal financial status and get advice on their retirement plans.

Check out this one from late March: Can Lucas and Shelby afford to give $100,000 to each of their kids for a first house?

For those who don't want to give the G&M any clicks, I'll summarize:
- Lucas and Shelby are teachers who are going to retire next year at the ages of 55 and 54 respectively.
- Their pensions will pay them a combined $125k per year.
- The present value of their combined pensions is $2.6M.

Read that last point again... $2.6M present value.

Lucas and Shelby are extremely wealthy by any reasonable standard.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

...

I think a large part of the problem is unions in white collar environments. There isn't really an argument to be made for higher salaries and more benefits because those people that work in white collar unionized environments are well paid and have good benefits.

...

The very concept of labor unions was to protect workers who have no transferrable skills (ie if they are unhappy with their job, they can't just quit and get a new one) and therefore no negotiating power. These are the people who can and will be exploited by their employers.

Almost by definition, someone with a university degree making >$75k per year does not fit that description.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Something must have happened to this thread about the sale of the Ottawa Senators. I suppose there isn't much news lately.

 

[BankStreetParade]

It’s not wrong when a technologist with a Science degree working nights, evenings and weekends in a hospital makes 85K without summers off. Face it Grade 1 and 2 teachers are glorified babysitters.

Completely wrong again and, honestly, sounds like you don't have a f***ing clue what you're talking about. It's ok to be wrong though as long as you learn from it.

 

[Cosmix]

Teachers Pension Plan may be a secret bidder.

Secret financier perhaps.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

100% agree that the good teachers deserve to be paid, there are far, far too many however that aren’t in it for the right reasons.

Indeed. Of staff I have worked with, over 30% I could pencil out as not fit for the job. That's significant number. 30% I would consider as exceptional. I've let go of 4 teachers past 12 months and you can see immediate change; the unions in the West can be an extreme hindrance for change. But without unions, you would need strong moral leaders to guide.. but strong leaders are tied to policymakers and that leads to politicians and that's .... rabbit hole.

The Globe and Mail does a weekly column called "Financial Facelift", which by and large is people who disclose their personal financial status and get advice on their retirement plans.

Check out this one from late March: Can Lucas and Shelby afford to give $100,000 to each of their kids for a first house?

For those who don't want to give the G&M any clicks, I'll summarize:
- Lucas and Shelby are teachers who are going to retire next year at the ages of 55 and 54 respectively.
- Their pensions will pay them a combined $125k per year.
- The present value of their combined pensions is $2.6M.

Read that last point again... $2.6M present value.

Lucas and Shelby are extremely wealthy by any reasonable standard.

Indeed. Some are paid handsomely.

Let's compare different professions, though, and let's imagine they are near the best at what they do:

Hockey players: 12 mil per year.
Teachers: about 1.3 million after 30 years of service.

Think about which is more vital for society, if both are at their best.

Also, if you think 2.6 is extremely wealthy for 2 people after 30 years of service in this economy I unno what to tell you, lol.

When I get home most days, I have no energy but to sleep. No energy. School owners and presidents beg me to take the summer offs to rejuvenate. Or whatever I get of the summer as administrator.

Side note: school administrator in North America is single most gruelling occupation. Basically 50-60% raise in salary and 200% the work.

My colleague co-attended a conference of superintendents in the States and he said it was a horror show. They have to grow trees from dead seeds(resources given to them).

 

[JD1]

The Globe and Mail does a weekly column called "Financial Facelift", which by and large is people who disclose their personal financial status and get advice on their retirement plans.

Check out this one from late March: Can Lucas and Shelby afford to give $100,000 to each of their kids for a first house?

For those who don't want to give the G&M any clicks, I'll summarize:
- Lucas and Shelby are teachers who are going to retire next year at the ages of 55 and 54 respectively.
- Their pensions will pay them a combined $125k per year.
- The present value of their combined pensions is $2.6M.

Read that last point again... $2.6M present value.

Lucas and Shelby are extremely wealthy by any reasonable standard.

Any married couple that spent full careers in the public sector with defined benefit pension plans are well off in retirement.

You'd see the same thing with two cops, or a fireman and a public servant

A married couple of public servants, which in this town are many, would be taking in 140K a year in pension based on full careers and a combined 200k in income while working. And these days the combined 200K isn't what you'd call really successful careers if both were university grads in the 80s.

Lucas and Shelby both have 5 to 6 years of post secondary education and full careers behind them. Sure, combined 210 K in salary sounds like a lot but given the education and years of experience it isn't really

Indeed. Of staff I have worked with, over 30% I could pencil out as not fit for the job. That's significant number. 30% I would consider as exceptional. I've let go of 4 teachers past 12 months and you can see immediate change; the unions in the West can be an extreme hindrance for change. But without unions, you would need strong moral leaders to guide.. but strong leaders are tied to policymakers and that leads to politicians and that's .... rabbit hole.



Indeed. Some are paid handsomely.

Let's compare different professions, though, and let's imagine they are near the best at what they do:

Hockey players: 12 mil per year.
Teachers: about 1.3 million after 30 years of service.

Think about which is more vital for society, if both are at their best.

Also, if you think 2.6 is extremely wealthy for 2 people after 30 years of service in this economy I unno what to tell you, lol.

When I get home most days, I have no energy but to sleep. No energy. School owners and presidents beg me to take the summer offs to rejuvenate. Or whatever I get of the summer as administrator.

Side note: school administrator in North America is single most gruelling occupation. Basically 50-60% raise in salary and 200% the work.

My colleague co-attended a conference of superintendents in the States and he said it was a horror show. They have to grow trees from dead seeds(resources given to them).

What do you mean by teachers @1.3million after 30 years?

 

[DaveMatthew]

As someone who is in a family of teachers, it's fair to say that teachers have an often difficult but incredibly vital job. A critical job if we want a well functioning society.

It's also fair to say that they're quite well paid (at least in Ontario, other parts of the world are different I'm sure).

Talk to the average teacher, and they'll say just that.

It's an important job that can be hard. They're paid well because it's an important job that can be hard.

As with everything, the media, government and unions love to stoke the flames of division and talk in the most extreme terms about everything, so you have a small but loud pocket of the internet who think teachers live on food stamps while another small but loud pocket things they twiddle their thumbs doing nothing all day while travelling Europe in the summer.

With that said, teachers or their salaries have nothing to do with a potential future arena downtown.

 

[Tuna99]

Like all professions, there are good and bad teachers. Just like there are good and bad cops, doctors, lawyers, and public servants.

I think a large part of the problem is unions in white collar environments. There isn't really an argument to be made for higher salaries and more benefits because those people that work in white collar unionized environments are well paid and have good benefits.

So what does that leave the unions to do? They're in the dog f***er protection business. They protect dog f***er's right to produce no work.

We can't implement standards in education because of unions fighting any form of assessment. We literally can't fire a public servant because of unions. And anyone that reads the news knows that cops can be convicted of crimes that get normal people fired but in the policing business you can assault women and keep on collecting that paycheque

The largest indicator for wages earned over a lifetimes isnt education, family money or connections - its if you are in a union or not and that’s a good thing. Unions are good.

If you wonder why there is a planned 60 year downward pressure on wages it’s because unions were destroyed with the neoliberal movement. Biden is a union supporter and suddenly a anti-neoliberal politicians because he knows the only way to increase real life wages is to have strong unions that battle for advantages and wages.

Do unions protect bad people from time to time - sure. But the benefits of union jobs versus their disadvantages unions os just not even comparable

 

[GCK]

Pretty sure you mentioned along the way somewhere that you don't have kids right?

You're probably not the best person to weigh in on the subject of the value of teachers.

Really. I guess I was never a student then. I’ll give you an example.

I know a couple in Whitby who are both elementary teachers. Matt teaches science and is incredibly dedicated, forest field trips, collects samples for his classes, can’t wait to get to the school. Lisa does nothing but the bare minimum and starts counting down to summer on day 1 of class, uses a lot of questionable sick days and does nothing but complain about students and their parents. In my experience, there are far more Lisa’s than Matt’s.

I may not have kids but I have 17 nieces and nephews ranging in age from 4-25 with a range of special needs to gifted students. I’ve been exposed to plenty of the challenges faced in the education system in Ontario.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Wtf has this thread turned into