The Offseason aka O'Reilly Contract Season

[RockLobster]

^^ No salary cap back then. Apples and cinder blocks.

Except that he signed an OS that was meant to be not matched by the then cash-strapped ownership group. Was he greedy for doing that? Hell no he wasn't.

I fail to see why a professional athlete who employs an agent/agency that's good at their jobs means that they're somehow "greedy".

People have a lot of reasons for wanting O'Reilly traded, but just because he's made 21M total so far (or will have after this current contract is done), is kind of a dumb reason.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

Sakic had led the team to a Cup. ROR has not. It's not comparable.

 

[Avs_19]

Sakic had led the team to a Cup. ROR has not. It's not comparable.

So you can only go for the money after you've won? Unwritten rule or something?

 

[RockLobster]

Sakic had led the team to a Cup. ROR has not. It's not comparable.

How is that different? He was presented an OS that made him the highest paid player in the league, he signed it, knowing there was a great chance the Avalanche would not be able to match it. How does that not make Joe Sakic greedy? And winning the Stanley Cup isn't a valid reason. Joe Sakic didn't buy into the Avalanche at that time, far from it. He signed his sheet with the idea of playing with Wayne Gretzky in New York.

 

[AslanRH]

Obligatory "even Joe Sakic signed an offer sheet!"

obligatory:

"knowing the Avs would match and by all accounts far less willing/desiring to leave."

 

[RockLobster]

obligatory:

"knowing the Avs would match and by all accounts far less willing/desiring to leave."

Except it wasn't a "slam dunk" that they would match, not with COMSAT's financials at the time.

 

[Avs_19]

It was just a joke because Sakic always gets brought up when we discuss O'Reilly's greediness.

This all needs to end soon so we can move on.

 

[FoppaForsberg*]

Going through every team on whether or not they're a good fit, if they have the plethora of defense,realistic targets, etc.

Anaheim- They're an internal budget team who will soon have to pay for all their young defensemen, can't see them being a landing spot for him.

Boston- Outside of Hamilton, there's nothing there worth it.

Buffalo- One of our best & most likely options IMO. Plethora of young defensemen and TM seems to want him badly. Zadorov, McCabe, Pysk, all options. The latter two would hopefully bring along picks/additional prospects.

Calgary- Can't see them being a contender for him. Friedman reported just last night that Treliving said he will not be doing any move that potentially jeopardizes their ability to resign Giordano, Monahan or Gaudreau. ROR will be too pricey for them to want to require, still in a rebuild afterall.

Carolina- Internal budget, can't see them going after him.

Chicago- No cap space

Columbus- Doubt it. Kekalainen has said that he wants defense, and ROR would cost defense. Not to mention they already have a pretty pricey forward corpse and Johansen will command big coin in a few seasons.

Dallas- We both need defense, not a fit.

Detroit- Doubt it. Some decent pieces but I can't see them moving them when again, they also want defense.

Edmonton- Maybe if it was still Lowe/MacTavish running the show we coulda suckered them into giving up Nurse/Leon/Hall/RNH, but now no. No deal to be made.

Florida- Possibly. Some good young pieces, Tallon is a bit on the hot seat and could look to make a move. Kulikov for ROR swap would be lovely. Still sad we never got him last season or so.

LA - Apparently there are reports that LA could go after him, but I can't see it with their cap problems.

Minny- No. Never. Next.

Montreal- Wouldn't be surprised. Some decent pieces. Eller, Tinordi, Beaulieu. Not so sure they would move Beaulieu though

Nashville- Plethora of defense, ROR wouldn't be enough to get Josi or Jones though.

New Jersey- One of my more underrated favourite options. Merrill, Gelinas, Severson. Though I'm a big Merrill fan.

Islanders- Already have an unbelievably strong forward group, needs defense, not a fit.

Rangers- They're always in the running for the big fish it seems. Staal+ Hagelin was talked about before, would be pretty good, doubt that he'd return that in the real world though. Would love Kevin Hayes

Ottawa- Bryan Murray is always talking about wanting top 6 forward, PW, Ceci, Chaisson, Hoffman. They could put together a decent package.

Philly- Like the Rangers they always seem to be in on the big fish. They seem to be changed in their philosophy a bit though, building through the draft more so with Hextall and crew. Lot of awesome D prospects though.

Pittsburgh- They do need a top 6 forward, and it is Jim Rutherford so the potential for a good deal is probably higher dealing with him. Not a whole lot of options outside of Maatta or a deal involving Sutter though.

SJ- Could make a last ditch move, doubt it though. Vlasic would be a wet dream

St.Louis- Nope, divisional rival and they're needing to give big extensions to Tarasenko and Schwartz.

TB- Nope, they're too smart to go after him when they have Stamkos, Kucherov, Johnson, Palat, etc deals coming up in a few years.

Toronto- Forever been linked to these ****ers. Outside of one posters obsession with Gardiner + Bozak + 1st nobody wants us to deal with them. Rielly and their 2015 first would be the only things I'd want, and but they're most likely untouchable. There was that Phaneuf +4th overall rumour though...

Vancouver- I'd like Hamhuis if he was a few years younger. Wouldn't hate Edler though.

Washington- He seems like a Washington/Trotz type player, Alzner would be lovely. I could see them being a dark horse.

Winnipeg- Divisional opponent, recently just made a massive trade in getting Myers, can't see them making another huge deal like ROR.

Those are my thoughts anyways.

 

[AslanRH]

Except it wasn't a "slam dunk" that they would match, not with COMSAT's financials at the time.

I remember it well, and unless I missed something since I didn't have access daily to the Denver news here in Wyoming, it was never really in doubt.

I think they used it to accelerate a couple business moves (arena), but I don't remember much panic overall

 

[RockLobster]

Sakic's OS wasn't the first time that he put himself before the team:

Point one : don't ever underestimate Sakic's negotiating cool. He has hammered everybody who has come up against him. The Nords took him to arbitration back in 1991. The quote from Pierre Page was something like, ''Sakic came in with two hammers and we were holding the nails''. The Nords also learned to not be fooled by his shy demeanour back in 1988 when it took an entire year to sign him to a contract, a contract no doubt made more expensive by him becoming Major Junior Play Of The Year in the year during negotiations.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010820171223/http://www.interlog.com/~ditko37/citn/hfb1lacr.html

The rest of the article is hit or miss on its content, but the portion I quoted, I sure found interesting.

 

[RockLobster]

I remember it well, and unless I missed something since I didn't have access daily to the Denver news here in Wyoming, it was never really in doubt.

I think they used it to accelerate a couple business moves (arena), but I don't remember much panic overall

They took the full 7 days to match because Charlie Lyons didn't have the money. That's one of the reasons why the Rangers even sent the OS, because Lyons was talking about how the Nuggets and Avalanche "didn't have money, they were broke".

 

[Freudian]

If he wants to squeeze every last dollar out and is willing to go through the lengths that he has gone through to do it, it's his right. I can't recall any single player that's been a bigger headache in the last 15 years for any team, so we got a special one. Hard to know beforehand though, since he's got this hard working and soft spoken thing so it's not like you are going to spot it before you draft him.

He'll probably go somewhere else and be their Holik/Drury/Gomez where it's impossible for him to earn his contract and be disliked by some fans but it's his career. He only owes the team that drafts him seven years. Those are the rules.

 

[AvsRobin]

If Buffalo is still a possibility I would want Zadorov+ something else. I prefer him re-signed at a fair deal but I guess that isn't happening.

My absolute nightmare in a trade scenario of the realistic scenarios that they pick the "move him for a 3rd line C and a defenseman"-option. And pick the trade involving the wrong defenseman. Cause regardless of what trade happens. I'm sure it will involve a defenseman, prospect or pro.

Wiercoich from Ottawa is a wish from mine, but ROR would never be traded to Ottawa so I dont' see it happening.

 

[AslanRH]

Fair enough.

I do remember they were losing money on the Nuggets and Avs back in McNic.

I think the 7 days were a tool to push the arena and investor deals though. Don't think they were ever not going to find a way to keep Sakic in the fold and as Captain.

 

[CB Joe]

Going through every team on whether or not they're a good fit, if they have the plethora of defense,realistic targets, etc.

Anaheim- They're an internal budget team who will soon have to pay for all their young defensemen, can't see them being a landing spot for him.

Boston- Outside of Hamilton, there's nothing there worth it.

Buffalo- One of our best & most likely options IMO. Plethora of young defensemen and TM seems to want him badly. Zadorov, McCabe, Pysk, all options. The latter two would hopefully bring along picks/additional prospects.

Calgary- Can't see them being a contender for him. Friedman reported just last night that Treliving said he will not be doing any move that potentially jeopardizes their ability to resign Giordano, Monahan or Gaudreau. ROR will be too pricey for them to want to require, still in a rebuild afterall.

Carolina- Internal budget, can't see them going after him.

Chicago- No cap space

Columbus- Doubt it. Kekalainen has said that he wants defense, and ROR would cost defense. Not to mention they already have a pretty pricey forward corpse and Johansen will command big coin in a few seasons.

Dallas- We both need defense, not a fit.

Detroit- Doubt it. Some decent pieces but I can't see them moving them when again, they also want defense.

Edmonton- Maybe if it was still Lowe/MacTavish running the show we coulda suckered them into giving up Nurse/Leon/Hall/RNH, but now no. No deal to be made.

Florida- Possibly. Some good young pieces, Tallon is a bit on the hot seat and could look to make a move. Kulikov for ROR swap would be lovely. Still sad we never got him last season or so.

LA - Apparently there are reports that LA could go after him, but I can't see it with their cap problems.

Minny- No. Never. Next.

Montreal- Wouldn't be surprised. Some decent pieces. Eller, Tinordi, Beaulieu. Not so sure they would move Beaulieu though

Nashville- Plethora of defense, ROR wouldn't be enough to get Josi or Jones though.

New Jersey- One of my more underrated favourite options. Merrill, Gelinas, Severson. Though I'm a big Merrill fan.

Islanders- Already have an unbelievably strong forward group, needs defense, not a fit.

Rangers- They're always in the running for the big fish it seems. Staal+ Hagelin was talked about before, would be pretty good, doubt that he'd return that in the real world though. Would love Kevin Hayes

Ottawa- Bryan Murray is always talking about wanting top 6 forward, PW, Ceci, Chaisson, Hoffman. They could put together a decent package.

Philly- Like the Rangers they always seem to be in on the big fish. They seem to be changed in their philosophy a bit though, building through the draft more so with Hextall and crew. Lot of awesome D prospects though.

Pittsburgh- They do need a top 6 forward, and it is Jim Rutherford so the potential for a good deal is probably higher dealing with him. Not a whole lot of options outside of Maatta or a deal involving Sutter though.

SJ- Could make a last ditch move, doubt it though. Vlasic would be a wet dream

St.Louis- Nope, divisional rival and they're needing to give big extensions to Tarasenko and Schwartz.

TB- Nope, they're too smart to go after him when they have Stamkos, Kucherov, Johnson, Palat, etc deals coming up in a few years.

Toronto- Forever been linked to these ****ers. Outside of one posters obsession with Gardiner + Bozak + 1st nobody wants us to deal with them. Rielly and their 2015 first would be the only things I'd want, and but they're most likely untouchable. There was that Phaneuf +4th overall rumour though...

Vancouver- I'd like Hamhuis if he was a few years younger. Wouldn't hate Edler though.

Washington- He seems like a Washington/Trotz type player, Alzner would be lovely. I could see them being a dark horse.

Winnipeg- Divisional opponent, recently just made a massive trade in getting Myers, can't see them making another huge deal like ROR.

Those are my thoughts anyways.

I hope Anaheim is interested. They have a lot of nice young defensemen.

 

[RockLobster]

Fair enough.

I do remember they were losing money on the Nuggets and Avs back in McNic.

I think the 7 days were a tool to push the arena and investor deals though. Don't think they were ever not going to find a way to keep Sakic in the fold and as Captain.

I don't doubt that the 7 days were used to push the arena and investor deals through, but if it didn't happen at all, or if it extended past the 7 days, they were screwed because they didn't have it.

Just going to show, that Sakic was a professional athlete, he put he and his family above everything, including the Avalanche. While he eventually only ever played here, he always made sure that he was taken care of first, just like O'Reilly (in my opinion). They're not wrong for doing so, they're making sure they maximize their short career shelf-life.

 

[hughdreamz]

I don't doubt that the 7 days were used to push the arena and investor deals through, but if it didn't happen at all, or if it extended past the 7 days, they were screwed because they didn't have it.

Just going to show, that Sakic was a professional athlete, he put he and his family above everything, including the Avalanche. While he eventually only ever played here, he always made sure that he was taken care of first, just like O'Reilly (in my opinion). They're not wrong for doing so, they're making sure they maximize their short career shelf-life.

True, but Sakic was not as big of a problem as ROR and Sakic had already proven his worth where ROR has not.

 

[RockLobster]

True, but Sakic was not as big of a problem as ROR and Sakic had already proven his worth where ROR has not.

Almost 7 years in and O'Reilly hasn't proven his worth? If that's the case, he never will.

There's no difference, other than the Avs winning the SC in 95-96, between the circumstances, especially when you look deeper into Sakic's past and you see that he too was deemed a bit "problematic" when negotiating...and by that I mean that he never short-changed himself at the negotiating table, and that could have been interpreted as "problematic" by the GM across from that table.

 

[ABasin]

Wow, an awful lot of possibilities thrown out here. I think it comes down to just several:

1) The Avs resign him.
2) Great return. The Avs trade him for a great return that immediately improves their roster.
3) Fair return. The Avs trade him for a so-so/meh return that results in a worse roster next season, but with some possible future upside.
4) Crap return. The Avs get fleeced in a trade.
5) The Avs hold him and lose him via UFA in a year.

And in truth, I think 4) and 5) are one in the same. Because if the Avs are faced with 4), they'll simply ride O'R for another season and lose him via UFA. All the while regurgitating the usual platitudes that we heard with Stastny: "It's his right", "It's the business side of hockey", "We want him here and will try and sign him during the season", etc. I think the big question is whether Sakic will default to 5) in the face of 3).

Particulars, IMO:

1) - I don't think O'Reilly will sign a contract with Colorado. He'll go UFA. This is largely out of Sakic's hand, and the Avs have very little leverage here. Not a likely scenario, IMO.

2) - I don't see this happening, for a couple of reasons. One is O'R's one year of contract eligibility, and two is his salary. In today's cap-NHL, when you trade a high salary, you really have to take one back, else the value of the asset you're trading gets lowered. For example, if the Avs want Reilly back from Toronto for O'R, they may have to take on Lupul's contract also. That sort of thing. And I don't believe the Avs will do that. So of my 5 possibilities, this seems the least plausible.

3) - This one is quite possible, but only if Sakic/Roy are in line with lessening the immediate roster. What I mean by a so-so trade, is the Avs will get some decent assets back, but none of them as good as O'R. They'll get an Eller/late 1st/decent prospect return. Or a Bieksa/late 1st/decent prospect return. 'Decent prospect' being the 3rd or 4th best non-goaltending prospect in some team's system. And the 1sts being 2nd half of the first round. No current high-end prospect or pick.

4) - This one is the Bozak + 2nd type of return, which Sakic won't accept, so no need to pursue it further

5) - This is the nuclear option. They ride O'R out for 12 months and he leaves with nothing coming back. By far the worst option of them all, but IMO one of the most likely.

IMO, the Avs are heading towards 4/5. The real question in my mind, is whether Sakic goes for the nuclear option when faced with several 3)'s starting him in the face. I hope he doesn't.

I think at this point it's time to simply end this thing. Get the best return you can, and let's move on with what we've got. I personally don't believe that an obvious 1st/2nd pairing under-30 defenseman is coming to Colorado, nor is a blue chip prospect, nor is a top 10 draft pick. The return is going to look like solid roster player + late 1st + some team's 3rd/4th best non-goaltending prospect. And we'll just have to move forward with that.

If Sakic acts.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The PSA last night is likely to rule out 5.

 

[hughdreamz]

Almost 7 years in and O'Reilly hasn't proven his worth? If that's the case, he never will.

There's no difference, other than the Avs winning the SC in 95-96, between the circumstances, especially when you look deeper into Sakic's past and you see that he too was deemed a bit "problematic" when negotiating...and by that I mean that he never short-changed himself at the negotiating table, and that could have been interpreted as "problematic" by the GM across from that table.

Sakic's numbers at this point in his career are miles ahead of ROR's. Not only had he already posted multiple 40+ goal seasons, he was a proven leader and conn smyth winner. Sakic was far and away a much better player than ROR is or probably ever will be. I understand Sakic signing the OS. He had won and proven himself. Now he wanted his pay day. I don't expect any player to have loyalty to a team after leading them to the ultimate success. If he left the Avs we should've been grateful for what he did. Obviously upset he chose to leave, but grateful. ROR has slightly above average stats and is great on defense, but has never led this team to success. BIG difference.

 

[ABasin]

the psa last night is likely to rule out 5.

'psa'?

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

The PSA last night is likely to rule out 5.

When has ABasin ever moved from the idea that ROR would walk despite Sakic repeatedly saying that this was going to be dealt with this off-season.

 

[tigervixxxen]

'psa'?

Friedman on tv during the game last night saying the Avs are listening to offers.

 

[ABasin]

When has ABasin ever moved from the idea that ROR would walk despite Sakic repeatedly saying that this was going to be dealt with this off-season.

Why is it such a sin that I don't necessarily believe that?

If O'Reilly were so easily dealt with, he'd be signed long-term right now, right? Isn't that what Sakic wanted? I get that we're all fairly tired of this discussion and situation, but if there is a really good available data that might lead me to change my position, by all means present it, and I'll take a look. If you choose to simply believe Sakic when he says that, great. That's your prerogative. I believe it's more complicated than that blanket statement might indicate.