The Official Team Canada/Ice Hockey Olympics Thread - VI - The Undiscovered Country

[Natey]

I know I'm beating a dead horse but I just feel so bad for Subban. He was treated so unfairly.

Picked to go to the Olympics with the best players in the world? Check.
Played in the Olympics, a dream of most people? Check.
Going home with an Olympic medal (hopefully gold)? Check.

I'm sure he's horrified by the experience.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Price sat on the bench in 2010 while Halak had that run and it made him a better goaltender, I truly believe. He learned valuable lessons about being a good teammate when he never in his life had to take a back seat. Same goes for Subban here, it's a learning curve and he's very young still.

I bet he comes back and blows the doors off the NHL in the back half. Wouldn't surprise me one little bit to see him go on a massive run and lock down another Norris.

Subban is a force of nature mentally. I'm not worried at all. He'll probably struggle for 3-4 games until jet lags wear off and then watch out.

 

[Picaroon]

Mmm.. Price hasn't been 21 for a long time now... none of the years being discussed in this thread have anything to do with his years as 21 year old.

The point is he became a starter at 20-21. That's crazy young for a goalie. Some people saw that and said "give him time." Some people didn't and overreacted. He has had his expected up and downs as he learned the ropes but, the "fanboys" predicted that after a few years he would be elite. Now here we are. And the guy is still only 26.

 

[void]

As a habs fan I'm disappointed but at the same time there are signs that Subban isn't 100%. I think the rest and the learning experience will be good for him. I am sure he has the right attitude about it.

I hope you're right. Us fans are probably more upset than he is.

 

[Plante]

I've played goalie until Jr A, and had the pleasure of coaching midget AAA, and coaching teams and at some hockey schools. So I like to think I have a mild understanding of the position.

However, I am just super curious on how you guys judge goaltending, I can't seem to grasp the general framework with how you define your concepts in my mind.

Can anyone fill me on in their personal criteria?

Also, Grats Carey! Biggest game of his career and he got a shutout, so happy for him. If he has another strong performance against Sweden, all that nonsense about not being able to play in big games will be put to rest.

10-0 baby.

 

[dcyhabs]

It's about time that Price starts playing like this, hope he keeps it up. After his year when he won the world juniors and then dragged the Bulldogs to a Calder Cup (typically outshot 35-10 but up by a couple of goals late in the 3rd) I expected more than he's done in the NHL. This year he's getting it together. If he can keep it up for a couple of years he may have a chance to make a serious playoff run.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

There's something i gotta let off my chest... this seems like the right thread to do it...

I think the games are terrible personally.

Vancouver 2010 was SOOOO much more fun to watch.

This totally changes my view on big ice. I thought more space on the ice would mean a better show, more space for players to show their talent. I just don't understand what makes the big ice so bad for scoring chances.

Also, I hope that adepts of fancy stats are looking at this with attention. Clearly there's a shot quality component at work here even with such a small sample.

Agreed. It's been really boring hockey.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Thanks. This post means a lot to me. Was half expecting Canada fans to rub it in my face if we lost.

You guys have been great to me. Best of luck against Sweden.

Nah. US played a great game and that one could've gone either way. I'm pulling for the Americans to get Bronze.

I know I'm beating a dead horse but I just feel so bad for Subban. He was treated so unfairly.

I don't think he's being treated unfairly.

The coach has gone with who he thinks is best (for whatever reason.) I don't agree with the decision but I don't think that it's "unfair." That said, I kind of feel bad for him too.

Don't worry though, if there's one thing he's not lacking in, it's confidence.

I've played goalie until Jr A, and had the pleasure of coaching midget AAA, and coaching teams and at some hockey schools. So I like to think I have a mild understanding of the position.

However, I am just super curious on how you guys judge goaltending, I can't seem to grasp the general framework with how you define your concepts in my mind.

Can anyone fill me on in their personal criteria?

Also, Grats Carey! Biggest game of his career and he got a shutout, so happy for him. If he has another strong performance against Sweden. If he does all that nonsense about not being able to play in big games will be put to rest.

10-0 baby.

Ask We Three Kings for his opinion.

It's about time that Price starts playing like this, hope he keeps it up. After his year when he won the world juniors and then dragged the Bulldogs to a Calder Cup (typically outshot 35-10 but up by a couple of goals late in the 3rd) I expected more than he's done in the NHL. This year he's getting it together. If he can keep it up for a couple of years he may have a chance to make a serious playoff run.

As good as Price is, I don't see the Habs making any kind of serious playoff run. If that's your criteria for him being good, I think you'll be disappointed. Barring us changing the way we play in the 2nd half, this team just doesn't play good enough hockey to go anywhere.

 

[Habsawce]

I've played goalie until Jr A, and had the pleasure of coaching midget AAA, and coaching teams and at some hockey schools. So I like to think I have a mild understanding of the position.

However, I am just super curious on how you guys judge goaltending, I can't seem to grasp the general framework with how you define your concepts in my mind.

Can anyone fill me on in their personal criteria?

Also, Grats Carey! Biggest game of his career and he got a shutout, so happy for him. If he has another strong performance against Sweden, all that nonsense about not being able to play in big games will be put to rest.

10-0 baby.

I judge goalies on a set of criteria that are subjective in nature but experience based on playing the position and watching a load of games:

Position off the posts - the ability of a goaltender to understand where he is at all times and instincts off the posts is crucial.
Mobility - the ability to cover post to post in a structured fashion maintaining integrity of stance and gap control.
Rebound control - It's not just about stopping the puck anymore, it's about where you put the rebound, so crucial nowadays.
Vision through screens - understated skill in goaltenders these days. In order to be successful you have to have the stamina to work for long period of times and the instincts to know the proper path of viewing the puck.

There are a lot of aspects you can judge in a goaltender but I personally believe positioning, mobility, rebound control and stamina/vision are the most important aspects. The other aspects like fundamentals in stance and save selection can be taught, the same as reading the puck off the stick.

How do you judge goalies, out of curiosity?

 

[JuicyHam]

 

[Whitesnake]

BS. Since 2011 he's been great.

The teams in front of him have been inconsistent. He was inconsistent for the end of last year and that's about it. He's been very consistent actually. Even if we just look at raw save percentage and shots he's faced more shots than any goalie in the league since 2011 and he's got a save percentage around .920 in that time. With the teams he's been behind that's remarkable.

Thing is, we still have an average team this year, with a really average defense, and yet, we can CLEARLY see the improvement and how great he has become over the years.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

This is, we still have an average team this year, with a really average defense, and yet, we can CLEARLY see the improvement and how great he has become over the years.

No no, you've got it all wrong. It's clearly about how bad/good the team is in front of him... except when it's not... because you know.. it's 100% impossible to insulate the play of the team from the goalie's performance.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I don't get it... why am I not getting it !

 

[Plante]

I judge goalies on a set of criteria that are subjective in nature but experience based on playing the position and watching a load of games:

Position off the posts - the ability of a goaltender to understand where he is at all times and instincts off the posts is crucial.
Mobility - the ability to cover post to post in a structured fashion maintaining integrity of stance and gap control.
Rebound control - It's not just about stopping the puck anymore, it's about where you put the rebound, so crucial nowadays.
Vision through screens - understated skill in goaltenders these days. In order to be successful you have to have the stamina to work for long period of times and the instincts to know the proper path of viewing the puck.

There are a lot of aspects you can judge in a goaltender but I personally believe positioning, mobility, rebound control and stamina/vision are the most important aspects. The other aspects like fundamentals in stance and save selection can be taught, the same as reading the puck off the stick.

How do you judge goalies, out of curiosity?

Good response! I could add and explain mine in such detail but Im a tad too drunk! Let me try anway

I think for me the biggest ones are tracking the puck, following streakers, movement on transition shots, rebounds on clean shots, vision in general, positioning on screens (lucky 6'3 sob gets to go butterfly and stop most of it) I don't even much care for mobility imo, J.S Giguere wasn't the most mobile during his amazing run, just a brick wall lol... K drunk thinking is hard, but all in all it ends up in the eye test, which is why I think everything from NHL players, to people who watch the game have a hard time understanding all the nuances, just cause a goalie let in 4, doesn't mean he had a bad game.

I think the problem lays with people thinking goalies can 'react' to an NHL lvl calibre shot. Reaction plays a very small part in goaltending. Things move far too fast at that kind of level. I should clarify that one of course does 'react', but you do it beforehand, not after.
I think that E=CH guy was right earlier going by your criteria. His rebound control, side to side, and all that jazz has always been a technical marvel to other goalies but it was still 'raw' in the sense that he wasn't either fully emotionally in it, or would commit too much due to inexperience. Watching him now, he looks to be 'tuning in', and I think we've yet to see him at his best. Although I think his rebound control and vision through screens has always remained excellent and top notch.



Anywho, hope that made sense. Go Canada Go

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This is, we still have an average team this year, with a really average defense, and yet, we can CLEARLY see the improvement and how great he has become over the years.

He has gotten better, he's been awesome this year. I can't think of a really bad game that he's had yet. Remarkably consistent.

Like I said though, he was great before. Top five great. The way he's playing now? Arguably the best in the world. He's at the next level. How much of that is him coming into his prime vs Waite? Probably a bit of both.

No no, you've got it all wrong. It's clearly about how bad/good the team is in front of him... except when it's not... because you know.. it's 100% impossible to insulate the play of the team from the goalie's performance.

Well, how many goals do you think he would've let in today if he had the Habs in front of him?

You don't think the team in front makes a difference? Come on man.

 

[Habsawce]

Good response! I could add and explain mine in such detail but Im a tad too drunk! Let me try anway

I think for me the biggest ones are tracking the puck, following streakers, movement on transition shots, rebounds on clean shots, vision in general, positioning on screens (lucky 6'3 sob gets to go butterfly and stop most of it) I don't even much care for mobility imo, J.S Giguere wasn't the most mobile during his amazing run, just a brick wall lol... K drunk thinking is hard, but all in all it ends up in the eye test, which is why I think everything from NHL players, to people who watch the game have a hard time understanding all the nuances, just cause a goalie let in 4, doesn't mean he had a bad game.

I think the problem lays with people thinking goalies can 'react' to an NHL lvl calibre shot. Reaction plays a very small part in goaltending. Things move far too fast at that kind of level. I should clarify that one of course does 'react', but you do it beforehand, not after.
I think that E=CH guy was right earlier going by your criteria. His rebound control, side to side, and all that jazz has always been a technical marvel to other goalies but it was still 'raw' in the sense that he wasn't either fully emotionally in it, or would commit too much due to inexperience. Watching him now, he looks to be 'tuning in', and I think we've yet to see him at his best.

Anywho, hope that made sense. Go Canada Go

Personally for Carey Price the big difference I see this year from years past is his compactness and mobility. Now let me explain the mobility part first.

Carey has always had a tendency to over pursue pucks and that got him into trouble. The knee down, push off and slide past the post was a major problem for him and teams would just go east-west on him but this season he's really kept his mobility under control with how he's much sharper in his movements and maintaining the integrity of his stance. This is causing him to make many more positional saves, which is key for a goalie his size.

And compactness is kind of self explanatory. We used to see a lot of 7 and 9 hole goals in the past whereas now he's tucking his elbows tighter and stopping a lot of those pucks.

These 2 improvements are preventing those back breaking, head scratchers that we used to see while ensuring he's in position to continue to make those scramble saves we've seen over time. Stylistically and position wise, I think Price is the best goalie in the world. It's just putting the experience in and getting the confidence that's the trick and he's well on his way to that now.

It's a good time to be a Habs fan.

 

[MasterDecoy]

I don't get it... why am I not getting it !

tim horton cup. but aside from that, i don't really get the joke either. try again please?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

tim horton cup. but aside from that, i don't really get the joke either. try again please?

How do you not get this?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Well, how many goals do you think he would've let in today if he had the Habs in front of him?

You don't think the team in front makes a difference? Come on man.

You completely missed my point though. The point I'm making is that a goalie's performance is completely independent of how the team plays in front of him. The end result is not but the goalie can control his own performance.

A goalie can play great even if his team sucks (case in point : this season).

A goalie can play poorly when his team plays well (case in point : last season).

A goalie can play average when his team plays poorly resulting in a bottom 3 season (2011-12).

 

[MasterDecoy]

How do you not get this?

new avatar, gotta get used to the new one

"dear team usa, love team canada" try again please

the caption doesn't match the picture, im probably just looking too hard for a joke that's above first grade level

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Personally for Carey Price the big difference I see this year from years past is his compactness and mobility. Now let me explain the mobility part first.

Carey has always had a tendency to over pursue pucks and that got him into trouble. The knee down, push off and slide past the post was a major problem for him and teams would just go east-west on him but this season he's really kept his mobility under control with how he's much sharper in his movements and maintaining the integrity of his stance. This is causing him to make many more positional saves, which is key for a goalie his size.

And compactness is kind of self explanatory. We used to see a lot of 7 and 9 hole goals in the past whereas now he's tucking his elbows tighter and stopping a lot of those pucks.

These 2 improvements are preventing those back breaking, head scratchers that we used to see while ensuring he's in position to continue to make those scramble saves we've seen over time. Stylistically and position wise, I think Price is the best goalie in the world. It's just putting the experience in and getting the confidence that's the trick and he's well on his way to that now.

It's a good time to be a Habs fan.

Good post.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

How do you not get this?

I am not someone who buys tim horton coffee mugs.. I get it now...

 

[Habsawce]

 

[McGuires Corndog]

It's a good time to be a Habs fan.

Lets not get carried away, not trying to be negative.. Price and Subban are amazing, and Galchenyuk has lots of potential... But this is still a middling team with a lack of identity ( or the identity of smurfs, which we know isn't a recipe for success).

We have reason to hope the future can be bright, but barring Price going full-beast mode Patrick Roy on us, we stand very little chance of making any noise this year or in the very-near future. Hopefully all of Galchy, Beaulieu and Tinordi can reach their ceilings, we are still in desperate need of top 6 wingers. Patches is a legit First liner, Gallagher is more of a second line tweener. Serious drop off after that, with no prospects in line to fill those roles anytime soon.

Your analysis of Price was spot on though, he's become elite. Big improvement in his play.

 

[417]

I'm not technical goalie expert, but biggest difference i've been able to find in Price's game is he doesn't seem to be over-sliding as much this year

His movements are a lot more economical, he's making difficult saves look routine, which is what we saw a lot of when he burst on the scene