The Norris is Now A 5 Horse Race

[Avsfan1921]

If you're going to continue arguing against things I haven't said then there's no point in continuing.

Of course Makar has had the best season of Avs defensemen, he's scoring at a 1st line fwd rate, but he isn't controlling play in any situation like he has in previous seasons.

You said Mackinnon is propping him up this season. He is not.

You stated that Girards pairing would be more effective if given makars minutes. They would not.

You Insinuated that he’d be a second pair player this year outside of mackinnon. He is not.

This was all based on the stats you so heavily rely on assuming that it’s a correct assumption. It is not.

The only portion you’ve stated that is an accurate summation of his season is that he hasn’t been as effective as years past, hence why he doesn’t deserve the Norris this year.

 

[Warh1ppy]

God bless stats. Now that the real work is done we can just look at summaries instead of watching games.

Watched games.

Looked at stats.

Hughes is still the front runner and I'd argue Josi after him over Makar.

Whether Makar IS injured or overplayed or not is immaterial. As of right now, I believe the debate is between Hughes and Josi based on this years play.

 

[Tofveve]

So is this year more of a 2 horse race between Hughes and Josi then?

 

[Avsfan1921]

Watched games.

Looked at stats.

Hughes is still the front runner and I'd argue Josi after him over Makar.

Whether Makar IS injured or overplayed or not is immaterial. As of right now, I believe the debate is between Hughes and Josi based on this years play.

I don’t debate for one second that Makar deserves the Norris. I am happy for Quinn and he deserves it. I have stated this multiple times over the last month+.

However I do take issue with people that push these stats down your throat nonstop and make assertions when the person is patently wrong. We can’t watch every team regularly and that’s ok but don’t spew nonsense because you are rooting for another guy. Lay out the stats for people to digest as they do hold value but don’t claim certainties from them when you don’t know.

 

[Warh1ppy]

I don’t debate for one second that Makar deserves the Norris. I am happy for Quinn and he deserves it 100% and have stated this multiple times over the last month+.

However I do take issue with people that push these stats down your throat nonstop and make assertions when the person is patently wrong. We can’t watch every team regularly and that’s ok but don’t spew nonsense because you are rooting for another guy. Lay out the stats for people to digest as they do hold value but don’t claim certainties from them when you don’t know.

I'm not a stats person. They tell 50% of the story.

Not sure how anyone could think Makar/Toews are not the 1-2 in Denver though

 

[Avsfan1921]

I'm not a stats person. They tell 50% of the story.

Not sure how anyone could think Makar/Toews are not the 1-2 in Denver though

Yeah, I find them interesting but as I’ve stated in the past:
Stats are like politicians. You can find one at any time to support your argument no matter how absurd.
They have value but they are wayyyy overused and scrutinized.

 

[Rowlet]

You said Mackinnon is propping him up this season. He is not.

You stated that Girards pairing would be more effective if given makars minutes. They would not.

You Insinuated that he’d be a second pair player this year outside of mackinnon. He is not.

This was all based on the stats you so heavily rely on assuming that it’s a correct assumption. It is not.

The only portion you’ve stated that is an accurate summation of his season is that he hasn’t been as effective as years past, hence why he doesn’t deserve the Norris this year.

You can be propped up by something without being held up entirely. Sprinkles, fudge, and cherries are good but a sundae is propped up by the ice cream.

I stated, and showed why the Girard pairing IS more effective in terms of possession than the Makar pairing without MacKinnon.

I said, and showed why he is controlling play at a rate similar to a second pairing player without MacKinnon, not that he was as good as one.

edit: what you take from that info may vary but it's absolutely true

 

[Avsfan1921]

what's crazy is that you'd vote for Makar in the top 3 at all, he's been terrible.

He plays over 70% of his minutes with MacKinnon on the ice, he's getting carried offensively this year.

the Norris is voted on based on this year and he has been terrible in both ends when not playing with the 2nd best player in the league.

When MacKinnon isn't on the ice, the Makar pairing plays below replacement level relative to the rest of the Avs team.

The Girard pairing without MacKinnon plays at a more efficient rate than the Makar pairing does

These are direct statements from you in the last page and a half….. you are not talking solely about a facet of a players game. You are insinuating he’s been bad at hockey most times, and insinuating he’s either replacement level or second paring at best the other times.

I stated, and showed why the Girard pairing IS more effective in terms of possession than the Makar pairing without MacKinnon.

I said, and showed why he is controlling play at a rate similar to a second pairing player without MacKinnon, not that he was as good as one.

edit: what you take from that info may vary but it's absolutely true

You stated many things yes. The only thing you shown is that stats are not reliable to base assertions and that you don’t follow the Avs close enough to make valid arguments when it comes to Makar.

How is it that the majority of people who follow NHL hockey even have him in the Norris discussion while you assert he’s been terrible this year (but only disappointing recently)? Solely because Mackinnon carries him I suppose.

 

[Rowlet]

These are direct statements from you in the last page and a half….. you are not talking solely about a facet of a players game. You are insinuating he’s been bad at hockey most times, and insinuating he’s either replacement level or second paring at best the other times.


You stated many things yes. The only thing you shown is that stats are not reliable to base assertions and that you don’t follow the Avs close enough to make valid arguments when it comes to Makar.

How is it that the majority of people who follow NHL hockey even have him in the Norris discussion while you assert he’s been terrible this year (but only disappointing recently)? Solely because Mackinnon carries him I suppose.

I said he was only disappointing lately because he's turned it around somewhat. Up until a month ago his possession stats away from MacKinnon were under 40% on average, now they're 45% on average, that's a big improvement, but still much worse than his usual play.

As for the Norris question, the voting is based off of media member's opinions and people make mistakes.

Anyways, as I said in my edit, the stats are what they are, how you interpret them is up to you. It's not really worth it to keep going since it seems neither of us are going to change the other's mind.

Good luck in the playoffs!

 

[swissexpert]

It's Hughes or Josi this year.

No doubt Makar is an exceptional player but yeah, even Avs fans agree he was disappointing in most aspects.
He can't separate himself from D. Toews at even strength:
Makar 12G 33A 45P +13
Toews 12G 30A 42P +25

 

[Naster Okan]

If it isn’t Josi it confirms this is the Art Ross trophy for defensemen.

 

[eviohh26]

If it isn’t Josi it confirms this is the Art Ross trophy for defensemen.

Why? Doesn't Hughes have better stats in like all the advance stats? Elaborate why you say that.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

If it isn’t Josi it confirms this is the Art Ross trophy for defensemen.

Don’t you have that backwards? Josi is purely an offensive player. His offense is impressive but he’s just an average defender.

 

[Rowlet]

If it isn’t Josi it confirms this is the Art Ross trophy for defensemen.

Hughes beats Josi in every stat with more defensive zone starts while having more points.

The fact that Josi lost to Makar while beating Carlson is already proof it isn't the Art Ross for defensemen, weird for a Josi supporter to have that take.

 

[strattonius]

If it isn’t Josi it confirms this is the Art Ross trophy for defensemen.

Hughes has been great defensively.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I'd love it if Morrissey could finish top-5 like last season but I don't think it's going to happen. Maybe top-7 to top-9 in voting?

 

[Duke749]

Seems like it’s Josi or Hughes. Such a shame that one won’t win it when they’re deserving…

 

[triggrman]

Hughes beats Josi in every stat with more defensive zone starts while having more points.

The fact that Josi lost to Makar while beating Carlson is already proof it isn't the Art Ross for defensemen, weird for a Josi supporter to have that take.

Please stop using defensive zone starts as a positive for defensemen. Every time you ice the puck, you are forced into a defensive zone start. Most shifts are changed on the fly, not on faceoffs. So a few icing calls will obviously influence that stat a great deal.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Please stop using defensive zone starts as a positive for defensemen. Every time you ice the puck, you are forced into a defensive zone start. Most shifts are changed on the fly, not on faceoffs. So a few icing calls will obviously influence that stat a great deal.

i mean ok, but you know this doesn’t apply to quinn hughes right? he moves the puck out of pressure so incredibly reliably that we almost never ice the puck when he’s on the ice. that is the exact thing that makes him him.

 

[swissdude]

well the more defensive zone starts then only say that the other lines often ice the puck, more often than not the guys who take the defensive zone starts are not those that iced the puck so this stat says that the puck often get iced if he's not on the ice.... but as said he will get the norris no matter the stats, north american and playing for vancouver doesn't require any advanced stats in a vote there gonna be enough guys who don't even put josi on the list or at 5th so it's hughes any way

 

[pld459666]

To me, easily its Quinn Hughes this year.

 

[triggrman]

well the more defensive zone starts then only say that the other lines often ice the puck, more often than not the guys who take the defensive zone starts are not those that iced the puck so this stat says that the puck often get iced if he's not on the ice.... but as said he will get the norris no matter the stats, north american and playing for vancouver doesn't require any advanced stats in a vote there gonna be enough guys who don't even put josi on the list or at 5th so it's hughes any way

If you ice the puck you have to take the defensive zone start. That’s the result of icing the puck

 

[triggrman]

i mean ok, but you know this doesn’t apply to quinn hughes right? he moves the puck out of pressure so incredibly reliably that we almost never ice the puck when he’s on the ice. that is the exact thing that makes him him.

It wasn’t directed at anyone, just saying defensive zone starts are not an effective measure for defensive ability. Also, defensemen aren’t usually the ine responsible for icing it’s usually a forward missing a pass or just firing it out of the zone

 

[SwissFan12]

When you look at pure defensive stats, it is not that obvious that Hughes should win.

Josi has more goals and more primary assists and he is doing that in a lesser team imo, I think he deserves it.

 

[Duodenum]

When you look at pure defensive stats, it is not that obvious that Hughes should win.
View attachment 852002

Josi has more goals and more primary assists and he is doing that in a lesser team imo, I think he deserves it.

It's pretty obvious. Josi is roughly the same offensively stats wise but Hughes controls play at a rate Josi can only dream of. A lot of Hughes' shifts is just the other team trying hopelessly to get the puck off him. He controls the play so much he barely spends any time in the defensive zone. A one man ice tilter.