The Norris is Now A 5 Horse Race

[Lawzy]

Heiskanen deserves consideration, but it's a point production award these days.

It's questionable how much value does a defenceman being so involved with the puck offensively brings to a team. Even the best guys like Quinn Hughes and Cale Makar produce points at best at 2nd line forward scoring rate.

Somehow I suspect you're about to tell me that Hughes and Makar being 13th and 20th in scoring in the NHL doesn't matter because they play a lot. I'll allow it only if you also agree that Hoglander is the 3rd best 5v5 goal scorer in the NHL.

 

[Mrb1p]

Last time I checked the Norris trophy, which is the subject of this thread, is based on this season's play. Unless you think it should be based on reputation?

You were talking about Hughes and Makar in the same sentence, comparing their ability. I rectified your mistake, they are not comparable, no matter the perception of the yearly result, so far.

You said Hughes wasn’t a top pairing defenseman last season. Your opinions certainly don’t hold much value.

Find me a quote

 

[Lawzy]

You were talking about Hughes and Makar in the same sentence, comparing their ability. I rectified your mistake, they are not comparable, no matter the perception of the yearly result, so far.

Why would you assume he's talking about other years in a thread specifically discussing this year? I doubt you'll find many, if any, Canucks fans who would claim Hughes was better defensively than Makar in previous seasons. He hasn't been. Good thing the Norris trophy has nothing to do with previous seasons.

 

[Duke749]

Idk if Morrissey can ever win one with the competition nowadays, but man he’ll always be in the discussion.

 

[LemonSauceD]

You were talking about Hughes and Makar in the same sentence, comparing their ability. I rectified your mistake, they are not comparable, no matter the perception of the yearly result, so far.

Find me a quote

I mean I said that like two years ago. Still dont believe Hughes is that good.

But yeah sure go at it king.

You admitted that you said it, all that matters

 

[Mrb1p]

You admitted that you said it, all that matters

Find a quote plz

 

[Drew Doubty]

You were talking about Hughes and Makar in the same sentence, comparing their ability. I rectified your mistake, they are not comparable, no matter the perception of the yearly result, so far.

You "rectified" my mistake? Lol get over yourself. Sorry you had to watch your team get demolished twice this year by the Canucks.

If we're talking year by year, then I'd say this year Hughes has been better and last year Makar was better but Hughes took a big step forward defensively and it was closer than most people appreciate. Take a look at any underlying metrics you'd like, but I'm guessing you're more of a vibes guy. Before that I'd agree Makar was clearly better.

So if you're saying you form an opinion of a guy and refuse to change it despite two years of evidence pointing the other direction, then I guess it makes sense why your prospect lists are absolute trash.

But hey, keep making 10,000 posts a year!

 

[Mrb1p]

Why would you assume he's talking about other years in a thread specifically discussing this year? I doubt you'll find many, if any, Canucks fans who would claim Hughes was better defensively than Makar in previous seasons. He hasn't. Good thing the Norris trophy has nothing to do with previous seasons.

I didnt assume. He was talking about their ability, not their results.

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

Heiskanen deserves consideration, but it's a point production award these days.

It's questionable how much value does a defenceman being so involved with the puck offensively brings to a team. Even the best guys like Quinn Hughes and Cale Makar produce points at best at 2nd line forward scoring rate.

Well Quinn has excellent defensive numbers, is on pace for 90+ points and when he's on the ice most of the time is in the offensive zone.
Can't get scored on 200 feet from your goal.

 

[abo9]

Heiskanen deserves consideration, but it's a point production award these days.

It's questionable how much value does a defenceman being so involved with the puck offensively brings to a team. Even the best guys like Quinn Hughes and Cale Makar produce points at best at 2nd line forward scoring rate.

Ill be glad to pay 2nd line price for a forward capable of producing 90 pts... as a Montreal fan

 

[Warh1ppy]

You couldn't even make it to the sixth sentence fragment yourself before mentioning Makar lmao.

the three most recent articles mentioning the Norris race including one laid out by Vancouver media all indicate this being a down year for Makar and consistently mention it being a 2 horse race between Hughes and Makar.

As he is the current player most possibly able to overtake Hughes, of course he would be mentioned.

 

[NVious]

Rielly should win it, he plays in #HockeyMecca for #CanadasTeam and he has shown an insane toughness this year, most teams are scared to score against Toronto because of his #StickNearNetAwareness.

#GoLeafsGo #WeBleedBlue

 

[Lawzy]

I didnt assume. He was talking about their ability, not their results.

Oh, so is your argument that Hughes' stats are better this year because [insert reasoning here] or are we back to including other years?

 

[Warh1ppy]

Any Norris discussion without Josh Morrissey in it is pretty meaningless. Like, Evan Bouchard? Really?

All respect to Morrisey, the Norris has consistently gone to the highest scoring defenseman with the better defensive numbers. Unfortunately while Morrisey is such a defensive stud, those offensive numbers keep him out of the running

Being on the ice in favorable offensive situations with Ekholm as your partner and guys like McDavid/Draisaitl/Hyman/RNH will do that to your metrics. Not saying he isn’t a good player or doesn’t contribute to the team, but suggesting that he is in the running for best defenseman in the entire NHL is a whole other thing.

Unfortunately for some, he is based on his point totals and underlying metrics. This is not to say his favourable conditions are not in fact worth considering but if we're going to tug at that proverbial thread would we then exclude Makar because his underlying metrics this year are so far off of his regular because he plays with such a stud offensive group?

Being on the ice in favorable offensive situations with Ekholm as your partner and guys like McDavid/Draisaitl/Hyman/RNH will do that to your metrics. Not saying he isn’t a good player or doesn’t contribute to the team, but suggesting that he is in the running for best defenseman in the entire NHL is a whole other thing.

Unfortunately for some, he is based on his point totals and underlying metrics. This is not to say his favourable conditions are not in fact worth considering but if we're going to tug at that proverbial thread would we then exclude Makar because his underlying metrics this year are so far off of his regular because he plays with such a stud offensive group?

 

[Warh1ppy]

Dobson, Macavoy and Heiskanen are probably better than 99% of these "5".

Then respectfully, why are they not in any of the top 5 of any experts rankings this year?

 

[KevinRedkey]

Heiskanen deserves consideration, but it's a point production award these days.

It's questionable how much value does a defenceman being so involved with the puck offensively brings to a team. Even the best guys like Quinn Hughes and Cale Makar produce points at best at 2nd line forward scoring rate.

I too hate the 20th and 21st century. Miss the good ol' days of frozen cow turds and real men who knew how to defend.

 

[abo9]

Hedman shouldn't be in the running, he's got the points but his defense has slipped massively compared to previous years.

Oh wait none of that matters at all carry on

Unfortunately, until we can quantify defensive impact in as popular a metric as gials and assists, then offensive impact will continue to be easier to evaluate.

Ie it's much easier to defend a selection based on offensive results than defensive ones - a gap of 10 pts is "easy" to see, a similar gap in defensive ability isn't.

And you look at the list of recent winners*, and the "only offense matters" argument is quickly debunked - the list is of elite defensemen, bar none.

*Karlsson might be the exception, but 101 pts as a defenseman is pretty... good

 

[Ace of Hades]

You said Hughes wasn’t a top pairing defenseman last season. Your opinions certainly don’t hold much value.

He just has clueless and misinformed takes in general.

It's past his bed time when the Canucks play.

 

[BLNY]

Heiskanen deserves consideration, but it's a point production award these days.

It's questionable how much value does a defenceman being so involved with the puck offensively brings to a team. Even the best guys like Quinn Hughes and Cale Makar produce points at best at 2nd line forward scoring rate.

These days? The last truly defensive d-man to win the award was Rod Langway. 40 years ago. An argument could be made he's the only one too.

 

[ORRFForever]

I keep having to "ignore" these trophy threads.

Oy... Who cares? It's just a silly award no one will remember.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I think Hughes has to be the clear front runner.

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

Why would you assume he's talking about other years in a thread specifically discussing this year? I doubt you'll find many, if any, Canucks fans who would claim Hughes was better defensively than Makar in previous seasons. He hasn't been. Good thing the Norris trophy has nothing to do with previous seasons.

I'd say it. I think Hughes was severely underrated last year defensively and it wasn't until they started looking at those metrics this year that they noticed he was good. Just last year though, Makar has been better in all of the other years in my opinion and obviously better offensively up until this year.

Edit: the reason why he looked worse wasn't due to his own play, it was due to the team structure being ass and his linemates he had to carry.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Bouchard? Heiskanen?

Don't make me laugh.

 

[Spilot23]

Makar is just flat out better at defending than hughes, and he's also better offensively. Don't equate the two.

Love Makar and I would've agreed with you last year and the year before. Can't comment on Hughes defensively this year but Makar hasn't been that great.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Well giddy up