The NHL backdrop, how many teams will the league have?

[JackBurton]

Did you miss the part about driving across an unlit two lane road with swamp (the Everglades) on either side of you for an hour and a half in the middle of the night?

It's not too different than driving on the busiest highway in North America covered in 1/2" of black ice during a whiteout blizzard for 2 hours, with no one around you driving under 60mph.

It's called the Leafs After-party.

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

It's not too different than driving on the busiest highway in North America covered in 1/2" of black ice during a whiteout blizzard for 2 hours, with no one around you driving under 60mph.

It's called the Leafs After-party.

True, but if you crash and die at least someone finds your body. Crash in the Everglades and you get eaten.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

True, but if you crash and die at least someone finds your body. Crash in the Everglades and you get eaten.

Don't really think it matters at that point.

 

[Puck Dogg]

The door opened for relocation. And the relocation happened. But not to KC. Or Seattle. Or Las Vegas.

It went to...Winnipeg.

Can I get an "Amen" to that?

The NHL needs to go to the major US and Canadian cities - currently from Canada the likes of Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto stand their place. They have the history to justify their existence and the market is large enough to support an franchise.

If you think of fan appeal for places like Edmonton, Winnipeg or Calgary just do not have the right ring to them. With all respect, the mentioned three sound like minor league cities. Unfortunately - unlike with soft drinks - in sports the thirst is nothing and image is everything. NY Rangers would not have the same halo over them to sell pay-per-views and merchandise if they would come out of same state but only 4th biggest city (Yonkers).

The above is also the reason why I still think that Flames would have been better off as Atlanta Flames and Edmonton Oilers should have been moved to Houston (and the team names would actually fit those cities even better than current ones).

I have seen documentaries such as "Bleeding Green" and I do feel for anyone who has lost the opportunity to support their local team. However it seems that people's relation to the relocation of teams is much like high school crush - most get over it but some keep wondering for the rest of their lives what it might have been if it had only worked out.

 

[Steve Passless*]

Did you miss the part about driving across an unlit two lane road with swamp (the Everglades) on either side of you for an hour and a half in the middle of the night?

No, I got that loud and clear. My point was that if the arena is in an undesirable location and there aren't many fans of the team, then how is this team supposed to sustain itself? Is it at all possible that the demographics and geography are too much to overcome? Hockey is not love. It does not triumph over all.

 

[Confucius]

I agree, that's exactly how I expect contraction to happen. The league wont buy out a team to shut it down, they'll just let it spiral down the drain.

They'd have to, if I'm not going to get anything for the team, I'll sell it to someone for a song, which is better than ZERO. I'd move it to Halifax for them 1st. Lets see not infringing on anybody's territory and more than likely have been in my present location for the 7 years.

 

[JackBurton]

True, but if you crash and die at least someone finds your body. Crash in the Everglades and you get eaten.

They may find your body, but if you're already east of Oshawa, it may not be until spring.

 

[The CyNick]

Can I get an "Amen" to that?

The NHL needs to go to the major US and Canadian cities - currently from Canada the likes of Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto stand their place. They have the history to justify their existence and the market is large enough to support an franchise.

If you think of fan appeal for places like Edmonton, Winnipeg or Calgary just do not have the right ring to them. With all respect, the mentioned three sound like minor league cities. Unfortunately - unlike with soft drinks - in sports the thirst is nothing and image is everything. NY Rangers would not have the same halo over them to sell pay-per-views and merchandise if they would come out of same state but only 4th biggest city (Yonkers).

The above is also the reason why I still think that Flames would have been better off as Atlanta Flames and Edmonton Oilers should have been moved to Houston (and the team names would actually fit those cities even better than current ones).

I have seen documentaries such as "Bleeding Green" and I do feel for anyone who has lost the opportunity to support their local team. However it seems that people's relation to the relocation of teams is much like high school crush - most get over it but some keep wondering for the rest of their lives what it might have been if it had only worked out.

is this guy for real?

 

[Killion]

True, but if you crash and die at least someone finds your body. Crash in the Everglades and you get eaten.

Alligator Alley. Valet Parking at BankAtlantic Center provided by The Swamp People in AirBoats. Or if you DARE; rumor has it Michael Yormark's sold the parking lot rights to HistoryChannel for "TailGator", a reality show spinoff on the original series. "Who makes it to the arena doors Alive?. Who gets Taken Out on their way to their car after the game?. Not including the pre-season teasers, 42 episodes with a possible playoff extension. Some episodes directed by Quentin Tarantino featuring the Mexican Hitman from Machete'.

 

[Melrose Munch]

is this guy for real?

And what is he lying about. The NHL does not have a presence in two of the largest southern cities. Houston and Atlanta.

 

[Steve Passless*]

The NHL didn't have a presence in Atlanta when the team was in Atlanta. Who cares.

 

[Puck Dogg]

The NHL didn't have a presence in Atlanta when the team was in Atlanta. Who cares.

Atlanta metropolitan area has over 5 million people, the entire province of Manitoba where the Thrashers would re-locate holds for comparison 1.2 million. That no-one in Atlanta cared is only a case of not knowing how to attract the fans - the soccer team NY Cosmos sold full stadiums in the 70's and entire US was not interested in soccer prior their arrival.

Maybe some of the NHL marketing guys should hook up with Vince McMahon. If this guy can build multi-billion business out of big guys acting badly in tights who knows where he could take the NHL?

 

[kdb209]

e some of the NHL marketing guys should hook up with Vince McMahon. If this guy can build multi-billion business out of big guys acting badly in tights who knows where he could take the NHL?

*cough*XFL*cough*

 

[Trevor3]

Atlanta metropolitan area has over 5 million people, the entire province of Manitoba where the Thrashers would re-locate holds for comparison 1.2 million. That no-one in Atlanta cared is only a case of not knowing how to attract the fans - the soccer team NY Cosmos sold full stadiums in the 70's and entire US was not interested in soccer prior their arrival.

Maybe some of the NHL marketing guys should hook up with Vince McMahon. If this guy can build multi-billion business out of big guys acting badly in tights who knows where he could take the NHL?

Just because there are 5 million people in Atlanta doesn't mean there are 5 million hockey fans. 5 million people and they couldn't fill the arena, couldn't attract and sustain a following and couldn't make a go of it. It was a great market for the NHL to try, twice. It was a great idea to try and get Atlanta hooked on hockey, but it came up short, twice. If the league had a chance at getting that national TV deal, it needed Atlanta, but clearly that deal is as much of a pipedream as my childhood dream of getting to the NHL.

This isn't a case of "if we build it, they will come". They could very well have came, but they chose to stay home. The team sucked so people didn't go, but the NHL depends on fans since it doesn't have that huge TV deal like the NFL. If you have it, take advantage of it because there are cities out there dying for a chance at a team (Winnipeg & Quebec among others). So why should Atlanta get to have a team regardless of whether or not the support is zero, when there are cities that will sell out the rink 90% of the time and live and breathe for that team.

As for your earlier post, Calgary is the 3rd largest city in Canada at almost 1,000,000 people, metro area is well above that. It may not resonate with fans in the south but it would be a terrible for the NHL to not be in that market from a Canadian standpoint. Edmonton has a metro area roughly the same size and it would not be smart to up and leave. Better yet, I still haven't figured out if you're serious or not or why I'm taking time to respond.

 

[Puck Dogg]

If the league had a chance at getting that national TV deal, it needed Atlanta, but clearly that deal is as much of a pipedream as my childhood dream of getting to the NHL.

As for your earlier post, Calgary is the 3rd largest city in Canada at almost 1,000,000 people, metro area is well above that. It may not resonate with fans in the south but it would be a terrible for the NHL to not be in that market from a Canadian standpoint.

Thanks for taking the time to explain further, a single liner saying "you cannot be serious" is not very useful to consider different sides of the story.

I think get the picture now: as the NHL could not break through in major US city like Atlanta, it will not be able to get an national TV deal. This in turn causes that league needs to rely on the reasonably sized markets where they have the local support as these are the main source of income.

This sounds like what soccer in Europe used to be 20+ years back - nowadays their top clubs are global merchandising giants making the top 5 in world (after reaching out especially to Asia) and collecting up to 30% of their income from TV deals. The concept of local fan is diminishing fast when it comes to these clubs.

I understand that currently NHL is not in similar position to apply this way of making business. As aside the markets, you will also need the demand - which is obviously not there when it comes to southern parts of US.

 

[molsonmuscle360]

And what is he lying about. The NHL does not have a presence in two of the largest southern cities. Houston and Atlanta.

I'm trying to understand why this is so essential. So what that there is no teams there, just because you live in a major city in the US doesn't mean your entitled to have EVERYTHING. Houston has the Astros, Texans, and numerous college teams, Atlanta has the Braves, Falcons, Hawks and multiple college teams. Those are the sports popular within those cities as they are predominately American sports. It only makes sense that Canadian cities have hockey teams.

Just because Edmonton or Winnipeg isn't as big or fancy as Atlanta or Houston the fans are undeniably more passionate. It seems that a lot of people here only worry about the population of a city and not what interests the local population.

And saying that neither Calgary or Edmonton should have a team like the above poster is just silly. Last year there were enough players playing in the NHL from Alberta to field 3 full NHL rosters. That's like saying Florida shouldn't have any football teams.

 

[Shawa666]

I'm trying to understand why this is so essential. So what that there is no teams there, just because you live in a major city in the US doesn't mean your entitled to have EVERYTHING. Houston has the Astros, Texans, and numerous college teams, Atlanta has the Braves, Falcons, Hawks and multiple college teams. Those are the sports popular within those cities as they are predominately American sports. It only makes sense that Canadian cities have hockey teams.

Just because Edmonton or Winnipeg isn't as big or fancy as Atlanta or Houston the fans are undeniably more passionate. It seems that a lot of people here only worry about the population of a city and not what interests the local population.

And saying that neither Calgary or Edmonton should have a team like the above poster is just silly. Last year there were enough players playing in the NHL from Alberta to field 3 full NHL rosters. That's like saying Florida shouldn't have any football teams.

LA doesn't have any NFL teams.

 

[MoreOrr]

I commented about this earlier in the thread, but now rather than comment I'll ask the question:

How many US-based teams does the NHL need to have to be considered a major league among the other major leagues that exist in the US?

Sounds in part like a silly question. But strangely the other 3 major leagues all have between 29 and 32 US-based teams. Is there a co-incidence in that? Why is it that each of the major leagues seem to try to stay in par with the others with respect to size?

Sure, the NHL also has 30 teams, but currently it only has 24 US-based teams, and very likely soon only 23 US-based teams. So again, does the number of US-based teams have any real significance? And in addition to that, does it matter where those teams are, or perhaps more appropriately where they are Not?

 

[Tawnos]

I commented about this earlier in the thread, but now rather than comment I'll ask the question:

How many US-based teams does the NHL need to have to be considered a major league among the other major leagues that exist in the US?

Sounds in part like a silly question. But strangely the other 3 major leagues all have between 29 and 32 US-based teams. Is there a co-incidence in that? Why is it that each of the major leagues seem to try to stay in par with the others with respect to size?

Sure, the NHL also has 30 teams, but currently it only has 24 US-based teams, and very likely soon only 23 US-based teams. So again, does the number of US-based teams have any real significance? And in addition to that, does it matter where those teams are, or perhaps more appropriately where they are Not?

It does matter and it doesn't. Part of the answer, from the business side, is the relative strength and weakness of the two currencies. Right now is a really good time for the NHL to have 1/5 (and more) of it's membership in Canada. 15 years ago, it wasn't as good.

The other side of the equation is overall competition. To paraphrase both a sports cliche and a retail cliche: you lose in 100% of the markets you aren't competing in. So in a sense, the NHL would be more likely to compete with the NBA if they were also in San Antonio, OKC, Orlando etc. As an overall point, it stands. Unfortunately, the individual intricacies of each market play a factor too. As far as long term success is concerned, it's not enough to just BE in a place. The cliche only works if you know with 100% certainty that your business model will work (a la Best Buy). Given that there isn't one business model for all teams, we run into a problem. So no, I don't necessarily think it'd be a great business model to have 28 teams in the US and 10 in Canada.

The 29-32 number right now seems to be the sustainable area for major pro leagues. In a normal time (which isn't right now), you have buyers available if needed at that number. Adding too many extra would run the risk of having no buyers available because they already own teams. Every league right now is having trouble attracting buyers, so it's kind of an irrelevant point, but it's true.

 

[The CyNick]

And what is he lying about. The NHL does not have a presence in two of the largest southern cities. Houston and Atlanta.

The absurdity of saying Edmonton and Calgary being better off in Atlanta (failed twice) and Houston.

Seems like the ramblings of someone working with less than a full deck.

But thats just my opinion.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I'm trying to understand why this is so essential. So what that there is no teams there, just because you live in a major city in the US doesn't mean your entitled to have EVERYTHING. Houston has the Astros, Texans, and numerous college teams, Atlanta has the Braves, Falcons, Hawks and multiple college teams. Those are the sports popular within those cities as they are predominately American sports. It only makes sense that Canadian cities have hockey teams.

Just because Edmonton or Winnipeg isn't as big or fancy as Atlanta or Houston the fans are undeniably more passionate. It seems that a lot of people here only worry about the population of a city and not what interests the local population.

And saying that neither Calgary or Edmonton should have a team like the above poster is just silly. Last year there were enough players playing in the NHL from Alberta to field 3 full NHL rosters. That's like saying Florida shouldn't have any football teams.

And what about corporate support and season tickets. Only Calgary can go head to head with the US there. That's where the money is. Why not create even more new fans then we have now. It takes time.

The absurdity of saying Edmonton and Calgary being better off in Atlanta (failed twice) and Houston.

Seems like the ramblings of someone working with less than a full deck.

But thats just my opinion.

Atlanta's ownership failed twice. big difference. It would be nice for the NHL not to miss two of the top 10 media markets in the fastest growing region of the US.

And if you are a leafs fan, what does it matter that winnipeg has a team to you?

 

[edog37]

Would be great for someone here to tell me why it's 0%.

As far as I know after Winnipeg the prospective relocation spots are:

Kansas City
Hamilton
Quebec City

I'm not sure any of the above would work outside of Hamilton.

I can certainly see the NHL downsizing to 28 teams.

because the league would have to buy out the contracted owners....

 

[JackBurton]

And what about corporate support and season tickets. Only Calgary can go head to head with the US there. That's where the money is. Why not create even more new fans then we have now. It takes time.

Atlanta's ownership failed twice. big difference. It would be nice for the NHL not to miss two of the top 10 media markets in the fastest growing region of the US.

And if you are a leafs fan, what does it matter that winnipeg has a team to you?

Why doesn't the NFL expand into Sao Paolo? It's the largest city in the western hemisphere. Or any of the major leagues for that matter? What, wait? They don't play football there? Well, why don't we go make fans out of them?

Here's what we'll do. You put up a couple hundred million dollars for the inevitable losses while it grows, and I promise to pay you back sometime in the next 50 years or so.

 

[JMROWE]

I belive the NHL. will have 32 teams I say in about decade 2 via expansion & 4 via relocation so that makes 6 new cities in about 10 years .

IN
Winnipeg
Southwestern Ontario (Hamilton , Cambridge , Aldershot , Kitchener)
Quebec City
Houston
Kansas City - That is only if the NHL. can get there before the NBA. if not I say ethier Hampton Roads VA. or Hartford
Seattle or Portland

OUT
Atlanta
Phoenix
Columbus
Florida (Miami)

 

[JackBurton]

I belive the NHL. will have 32 teams I say in about decade 2 via expansion & 4 via relocation so that makes 6 new cities in about 10 years .

IN
Winnipeg
Southwestern Ontario (Hamilton , Cambridge , Aldershot, Kitchener)
Quebec City
Houston
Kansas City - That is only if the NHL. can get there before the NBA. if not I say ethier Hampton Roads VA. or Hartford
Seattle or Portland

OUT
Atlanta
Phoenix
Columbus
Florida (Miami)

Aldershot? If every person in town came out to the game, they MIGHT fill 1/5 of the arena.