The NHL backdrop, how many teams will the league have?

Dado

Guest
Think it through, mate.

The door opened for relocation. And the relocation happened. But not to KC. Or Seattle. Or Las Vegas.

It went to...Winnipeg.

I LOVE having another Canadian team to play against - but there is no getting around the fact this is a negative sign for the NHL.
 

AdmiralsFan24

Registered User
Mar 22, 2011
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Think it through, mate.

The door opened for relocation. And the relocation happened. But not to KC. Or Seattle. Or Las Vegas.

It went to...Winnipeg.

It went to Winnipeg because they have a place to play. The only city you listed that has a place to play right now is Kansas City.
 

AdmiralsFan24

Registered User
Mar 22, 2011
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It went to Winnipeg because it was the only place willing to hand over a sack of lucre for the privilege.

True. They had potential owners willing to pay to bring a team there. Still, two of the cities you named have no place to play, so even if there were potential owners wanting to bring a team to Seattle or Las Vegas, they couldn't.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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I agree with Dado. The league had to choose between Winnipeg and contraction.

We have been told here on the BOH how scary and bad contraction is.
BTW the NHL is not the only one with these problems. There is a rumor out there that claim Selig of the MLB wants to contract Oakland and Tampa. and give LA to Oakland's owner.
 

Dado

Guest
And that's not a slight to Winnipeg. It's a great town, great fans, great (re)rivalry with the other Canadian teams, and I hope the team does well and stays forever.

But there's no escaping the plain fact that Winnipeg is a third-tier market in the big picture of things and won't ever be anyone's preferred expansion choice.
 

Dado

Guest
Selig already tried contraction (Minnesota and Montreal). He failed that time, and he'd fail if he tried it again.

Last time, the attempt at contraction led to massive revenue sharing between the teams. That escape valve won't be available the next time fiscal steam needs to be let off.

I would put MLB as the N.A. league in best position to counteract contraction, but I wouldn't ever say they were immune.
 

CpatainCanuck

Registered User
Sep 18, 2008
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Quebec City and Hamilton are great places for a failing franchise to move to. I`m quite sure an owner would rather get even 100 million for his franchise rather than lose it for nothing.
 

IU Hawks fan

They call me IU
Dec 30, 2008
28,516
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NW Burbs
1-Quebec City
2-Kansas City
3-Hamilton
4-Houston
5-Portland
6-Seattle
7-Las Vegas
8-Orlando
9-Milwaukee
10-San Antonio
11-Cleveland
12-Hartford
13-Cincinnati
14-Salt Lake City
15-San Diago

Your inclusion of places like Seattle makes it seem a viable arena isn't needed to get on this list. I would put Indianapolis over many of the cities listed because of that. Seattle, KC, Portland, and Houston are all clearly the best available markets, though.
 
Jan 19, 2006
7,347
1
I wonder if contracting the Panthers would help the Lightning in their finances?

1. The Panthers are currently losing money on the team (because they have been terribly mismanaged for a decade) but making money on the arena. Whether they are making money or losing money as a whole likely depends on which set of books you are looking at.

Since the two entities are inseparable, it's unlikely that SSE (the parent company) will give up the team and thereby lose their rights to all other arena revenue (which is substantial).

2. The area is heavily populated by people from the Northeast, Midwest & Canada. These people didn't stop loving hockey when they moved here, but the team hasn't given them a reason to love THEM. When the team went on their miracle run in 1996, the area went crazy. You don't need a cup finalist to get those people to come out again. You just need a team that wins more than it loses and wins an occasional playoff game... (which is something this team hasn't done in 15 years.)

3. Your post above demonstrates some lack of knowledge of Florida geography. People from the east coast aren't going to drive across the Everglades at night to watch a hockey game. It also demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the demographics. Those fans who came from "up North" still love their original teams. If the Panthers leave, Tampa won't win those fans. The Panthers could have won many of them over rather easily, if they just didn't suck so badly for so long.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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1. The Panthers are currently losing money on the team (because they have been terribly mismanaged for a decade) but making money on the arena. Whether they are making money or losing money as a whole likely depends on which set of books you are looking at.

Since the two entities are inseparable, it's unlikely that SSE (the parent company) will give up the team and thereby lose their rights to all other arena revenue (which is substantial).

2. The area is heavily populated by people from the Northeast, Midwest & Canada. These people didn't stop loving hockey when they moved here, but the team hasn't given them a reason to love THEM. When the team went on their miracle run in 1996, the area went crazy. You don't need a cup finalist to get those people to come out again. You just need a team that wins more than it loses and wins an occasional playoff game... (which is something this team hasn't done in 15 years.)

3. Your post above demonstrates some lack of knowledge of Florida geography. People from the east coast aren't going to drive across the Everglades at night to watch a hockey game. It also demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the demographics. Those fans who came from "up North" still love their original teams. If the Panthers leave, Tampa won't win those fans. The Panthers could have won many of them over rather easily, if they just didn't suck so badly for so long.

Ok, what about the empty seats before the Heat games and 200 people showing up for the marlins, etc.

South florida is a bad sports market.
 

AdmiralsFan24

Registered User
Mar 22, 2011
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Ok, what about the empty seats before the Heat games and 200 people showing up for the marlins, etc.

South florida is a bad sports market.

The Marlins play in a crappy stadium in the middle of summer where humidity and rainouts are a common occurence. Not exactly the best way to watch a baseball game. Let's see how they do with their new stadium with a retractable roof a couple miles from downtown.
 

No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
56,097
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Illinois
I agree with Dado. The league had to choose between Winnipeg and contraction.

We have been told here on the BOH how scary and bad contraction is.
BTW the NHL is not the only one with these problems. There is a rumor out there that claim Selig of the MLB wants to contract Oakland and Tampa. and give LA to Oakland's owner.

You're right and wrong.

MLB is not going to contract any time soon, you can put money on it right now. But you did list the two magic teams that are the most likely candidates for something else, relocation.

Book it, right here and now, in 10-15 years Tampa Bay and Oakland will be history and we'll be talking about the Portland Athletics and the Carolina Rays instead.

And the league that's really in trouble is the NBA. They're at a post-Jordan high, and there are still probably at least a good half dozen teams that are barely eking by or downright losing money. If any league's got a case for contraction, it's the NBA, but even they will probably just try to fix it by cutting salaries and having a flurry of relocations.
 
Jan 19, 2006
7,347
1
Ok, what about the empty seats before the Heat games and 200 people showing up for the marlins, etc.

South florida is a bad sports market.

Yeah, the Marlins in many ways are a disgrace, but I think you'll see much better attendance once they move to their new stadium in Miami.

I don't recall the Heat having problems selling tickets.

The Dolphins sell out whenever they manage to throw a mediocre product on the field.

The Panthers drew well when they weren't awful.

Is the area filled with bandwagon fans. yup. That's no different than any other area where the majority of the adult population wasn't born there.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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You're right and wrong.

MLB is not going to contract any time soon, you can put money on it right now. But you did list the two magic teams that are the most likely candidates for something else, relocation.

Book it, right here and now, in 10-15 years Tampa Bay and Oakland will be history and we'll be talking about the Portland Athletics and the Carolina Rays instead.

And the league that's really in trouble is the NBA. They're at a post-Jordan high, and there are still probably at least a good half dozen teams that are barely eking by or downright losing money. If any league's got a case for contraction, it's the NBA, but even they will probably just try to fix it by cutting salaries and having a flurry of relocations.
I agreee about the NBA, and I like it(Go Knicks) but they need to cut at least 5 team(yes including sacramento). Also, I think Vancouver might take the Rays and the Athletics might just go period. There is no point in keeping them around.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
23,546
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The Marlins play in a crappy stadium in the middle of summer where humidity and rainouts are a common occurence. Not exactly the best way to watch a baseball game. Let's see how they do with their new stadium with a retractable roof a couple miles from downtown.

Yeah, the Marlins in many ways are a disgrace, but I think you'll see much better attendance once they move to their new stadium in Miami.

I don't recall the Heat having problems selling tickets.

The Dolphins sell out whenever they manage to throw a mediocre product on the field.

The Panthers drew well when they weren't awful.

Is the area filled with bandwagon fans. yup. That's no different than any other area where the majority of the adult population wasn't born there.
Deal. Let's see next year.
 

AdmiralsFan24

Registered User
Mar 22, 2011
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Wisconsin
Deal. Let's see next year.

Well I don't think next year is really going to tell us much unless there are a ton of empty seats. New stadiums almost always have a big boost in attendance. If the Marlins don't average at least 30,000 in their new stadium, then I might agree that South Florida is a bad sports market.
 

Jeffrey Lebowski

The Chicago Little Lebowski Urban Achievers
Jul 31, 2009
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The cities are about 4 hour drive from each other. They are also on opposite coast of the States. They don't infringe on each other.

I'm sure they don't, however a 4 hour drive really isn't that far. St. Louis is 5 hours from Chicago and Detroit is only 5 and a half hours... if rivalries didn't exist among these teams from a Hawks POV, I would most definitely become a fan of one of those franchises. I'd make at least a few trips to go see my team play.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
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The NHL never even opened the door to relocation to other cities. TNSE had been setting themselves up for years as the first and easiest option should a relocation scenario arise. Their work on both the planning and lobbying fronts paid off for them pretty well. We will see what happens the next time a team's local options are considered to be exhausted. Too many people are making the mistake of applying the specific set of current circumstances to all future scenarios. Each situation is unique and will be in the future as well.
 

The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
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It tough to get a team to relocate. you need four things:

1. An owner in an existing market looking to sell
2. No other potential owners looking to keep the team in that city
3. An new owner willing to buy the team but only if they get to move
4. An existing or pending NHL ready arena in that new city.

Going by that criteria, you dont have many new markets that are ready to take on an NHL team. Some may have the arena, but do they have ownership waiting in the wings to run an NHL club in that arena? I'm sure the NHL would rather move Phoenix to say Kansas City or Las Vegas, but if you dont have anyone willing to put up the cash to run the team in those cities (and likely lose a bunch of money) then it wont work.

Right now it seems like Quebec City is the only market ready to take on a franchise that is in trouble.

You could probably easily find an owner to take a team and move them to Toronto, but I dont think the NHL will ever allow that because they can make more money by contracting a team and expanding to Toronto and getting expansion fees.

The question is would the NHL be willing to contract a team to get that done? Personally I dont think Bettman would do that, but anything is possible.
 

PredsV82

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Aug 13, 2007
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And that's not a slight to Winnipeg. It's a great town, great fans, great (re)rivalry with the other Canadian teams, and I hope the team does well and stays forever.

But there's no escaping the plain fact that Winnipeg is a third-tier market in the big picture of things and won't ever be anyone's preferred expansion choice.

I think you are overlooking bettmans likely perspective. The ATL ownership screwed him by deciding they wanted to get the hockey team out of phillips arena no matter what.

So having swallowed that bitter pill GB decides that rather than risk another nontraditional market, he will appease the people clamoring for another canadian team but without infringing on any existing teams territory.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
28,820
10,397
Charlotte, NC
It tough to get a team to relocate. you need four things:

1. An owner in an existing market looking to sell
2. No other potential owners looking to keep the team in that city
3. An new owner willing to buy the team but only if they get to move
4. An existing or pending NHL ready arena in that new city.

Going by that criteria, you dont have many new markets that are ready to take on an NHL team. Some may have the arena, but do they have ownership waiting in the wings to run an NHL club in that arena? I'm sure the NHL would rather move Phoenix to say Kansas City or Las Vegas, but if you dont have anyone willing to put up the cash to run the team in those cities (and likely lose a bunch of money) then it wont work.

Right now it seems like Quebec City is the only market ready to take on a franchise that is in trouble.

You could probably easily find an owner to take a team and move them to Toronto, but I dont think the NHL will ever allow that because they can make more money by contracting a team and expanding to Toronto and getting expansion fees.

The question is would the NHL be willing to contract a team to get that done? Personally I dont think Bettman would do that, but anything is possible.

Well, this relocation fee is almost as much as expansion fees were in the late 90s. $60m now to the $80m Nashville paid. But thats besides the point.

You don't need an existing NHL ready building to relocate a team there. What you need is plans to build a NHL ready building as part of the relocation process. There is precedent for this. None of Colorado, Phoenix or Carolina played in the permanent homes when they got to their new market. So if a buyer from Seattle were to inquire about an existing franchise, they would likely play in Key Arena for a couple of years. It's nowhere near the ideal building to play in, but a new building would be part of the plan. (note: I am in no way saying that a buyer is necessarily going to come forward from there, just giving a potential example). This means that any place with an NBA building that has an ice plant is an option. In reality, every city on that earlier list (which is incomplete) would fit that scenario.

Whether or not there are any potential buyers in those places is pure speculation on both directions. My point is this: faced with a failing market, the league would find a way to save the franchise, even if it meant moving it. Contraction won't happen.
 

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