The NHL backdrop, how many teams will the league have?

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
24,420
438
Mexico
Think it through, mate.

The door opened for relocation. And the relocation happened. But not to KC. Or Seattle. Or Las Vegas.

It went to...Winnipeg.

I LOVE having another Canadian team to play against - but there is no getting around the fact this is a negative sign for the NHL.

Because apparently at the moment no one is clammering for a team in the US. Only the city of Phoenix is fighting to keep its team, and apparently Kansas City wants a team, but in both cases there aren't owners who are stepping up or up to the task of owning team.

The fact is that there just aren't willing or worthy owners available. There are cities that could probably take on a team, but without owners, and even without good owners many franchises just fail.

You need owners themselves who are passionate about the game.
 
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CerebralGenesis

Registered User
Jul 23, 2009
24,429
2
I think Kansas City will get a chance down the road.

If Florida was competitive at all, I think they'd be fine. Constantly rebuilding is not a way to run a successful organization.

The NHL will probably be at 30 teams for many years until the economy stabilizes and the teams they have aren't fighting for their lives.
 

AdmiralsFan24

Registered User
Mar 22, 2011
14,979
3,896
Wisconsin
There is precedent for this. None of Colorado, Phoenix or Carolina played in the permanent homes when they got to their new market. So if a buyer from Seattle were to inquire about an existing franchise, they would likely play in Key Arena for a couple of years.

The difference is Phoenix played in an arena that held 16,210 for hockey before Jobing.com Arena opened.

Carolina played in an arena that held 21,273 for hockey, granted they played at Greensboro Coliseum which nobody wanted to go to, so it's not like attendance was booming there but they at least had the capacity to seat a lot of fans.

Colorado also played in an arena that held a little over 16,000 for hockey while Pepsi Center was being built.

Key Arena holds 11,000 for hockey. That's just way to small to play in even for a couple years imo.
 

Mantha Poodoo

Playoff Beard
Jun 5, 2008
4,109
0
32.

With rising overall revenue and a big TV deal, the NHL is going to expand before they contract. I expect expansion soon, actually. Possibly the year of the new CBA, or the year after.
 

BadHammy*

Guest
32.

With rising overall revenue and a big TV deal, the NHL is going to expand before they contract. I expect expansion soon, actually. Possibly the year of the new CBA, or the year after.

I'm putting it at 0.00000000000% chance and that's being kind. The league is not doing fiscally well right now, period. With the payroll potentially hitting 63m next year, the issue is going come to a head and fast. The Canadian dollar can't stay this high for long and if it fell suddenly by 10%, it'd be a huge problem for the league.

I'm not saying it's likely, but the possibility of another lockout is a real concern.
 

Mantha Poodoo

Playoff Beard
Jun 5, 2008
4,109
0
I'm putting it at 0.00000000000% chance and that's being kind. The league is not doing fiscally well right now, period. With the payroll potentially hitting 63m next year, the issue is going come to a head and fast. The Canadian dollar can't stay this high for long and if it fell suddenly by 10%, it'd be a huge problem for the league.

I'm not saying it's likely, but the possibility of another lockout is a real concern.

I think neither the owners nor the players would be willing to suffer another lockout so soon and that there will be a lot of rapid compromising on both sides in regards to the next CBA; I can see the NHLPA being ready to accept some changes in the cap/salary structure and so on in exchange for work on other issues of concern right now (injury-related ones and so forth). There are going to be a lot of concessions by both sides just to get things done.

The league is doing well fiscally right now; sure, there are a handful of teams with financial issues, but what 30+ team major league doesn't have a handful of teams with financial issues? League revenue is growing, the big teams are doing well (which means more revenue sharing money), and they just signed an extremely lucrative TV deal. Toss that in with long-standing speculation on expansion and hinting here in there from people within the business of the NHL, some hotly discussed markets, and so on, and I think expansion fairly soon is inevitable unless some serious crap hits the fan. Within 5 years, possibly within the next 2-3.
 

BadHammy*

Guest
I think neither the owners nor the players would be willing to suffer another lockout so soon and that there will be a lot of rapid compromising on both sides in regards to the next CBA; I can see the NHLPA being ready to accept some changes in the cap/salary structure and so on in exchange for work on other issues of concern right now (injury-related ones and so forth). There are going to be a lot of concessions by both sides just to get things done.

The league is doing well fiscally right now; sure, there are a handful of teams with financial issues, but what 30+ team major league doesn't have a handful of teams with financial issues? League revenue is growing, the big teams are doing well (which means more revenue sharing money), and they just signed an extremely lucrative TV deal. Toss that in with long-standing speculation on expansion and hinting here in there from people within the business of the NHL, some hotly discussed markets, and so on, and I think expansion fairly soon is inevitable unless some serious crap hits the fan. Within 5 years, possibly within the next 2-3.

I'd like to agree but I can't. We know there are 4 or 5 teams losing big time money every year (Yotes, Panthers, Thrashers, Isles etc) and despite winning the Cup, the Blackhawks apparently failed to turn a profit last year...

The long-term model of the league needs a cap around $51-53M to succeed and I don't think the players are going to be happy with that. If we see one of the three failing franchises moved, the relocation fee would go a long way to helping the league but only in the short term. The only possible way the league could support two more teams would be to allow Phoenix and Atlanta to move North first and for the American economy to rebound rapidly.

The first is, at best, somewhat possible but the second is extremely unlikely. We're looking at a double dip recession in the states, along with an annualized rate of 10% wholesale price inflation. Economically, it's nearly impossible for the NHL to consider expansion, trust me on this.
 

Mantha Poodoo

Playoff Beard
Jun 5, 2008
4,109
0
I'd like to agree but I can't. We know there are 4 or 5 teams losing big time money every year (Yotes, Panthers, Thrashers, Isles etc)

Such is always the situation for major sports leagues in the modern day world and such was even an issue in the previous couple NHL expansions.

and despite winning the Cup, the Blackhawks apparently failed to turn a profit last year...

You would do well to research the reasons behind the loss. Such was not due to a lack of revenue but rather many underlying financial issues remaining from the $Bill era, coupled with expenses that went well beyond the on-ice product. You also have to keep in mind that the Hawks are operated by an owner that also has large stakes in the local media and liquor distribution, and that the owner can intentionally operate the team itself at a loss (by spending a crapton of money on improving him) because he stands to make money overall with his businesses as the Blackhawks product improves. The Hawks technically ran at a loss but Rocky Wirtz made out like a frigging bandit, don't even kid yourself otherwise.

The long-term model of the league needs a cap around $51-53M to succeed and I don't think the players are going to be happy with that. If we see one of the three failing franchises moved, the relocation fee would go a long way to helping the league but only in the short term. The only possible way the league could support two more teams would be to allow Phoenix and Atlanta to move North first and for the American economy to rebound rapidly.

The max cap hasn't been an issue, the floor has... this will likely be worked out. Of course, such widens the gap in parity but with the revenue sharing system, the bigger teams spending more will also allow the smaller teams to spend more. A lower cap floor combined with more revenue trickling down from the upper end will make it easier for these teams to grow (having to spend less money in their 'down' years and receiving the shared revenue to be able to make more of an investment/spend more on salaries when they're trending upwards).

The first is, at best, somewhat possible but the second is extremely unlikely. We're looking at a double dip recession in the states, along with an annualized rate of 10% wholesale price inflation. Economically, it's nearly impossible for the NHL to consider expansion, trust me on this.

Economically, this is an excellent time for the league to consider expansion because of the simultaneous strong Canadian dollar (where much of the financial basis for revenue sharing is present) coupled with dirt cheap and plentiful American labor and real estate. If you can either sell yourself to a struggling city that already has a vacant and capable arena, or have an investor that's willing to make a significant investment into the planned area, you'll easily be accepted by the local governments; the added jobs make this even more of an incentive, as I said, the labor will be cheap for the NHL. And if you have to buy land, this is a great place to do it.

Obviously, there are concerns about revenues for the team in the next handful of years what with the American recession, but fact of the matter is even with a stronger economy you're likely looking at a team operating at a loss in its first handful of years no matter what American cities you expand into. However, the NHL has an agenda beyond pure short-term revenues and such is part of why revenue sharing exists.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
28,967
10,597
Charlotte, NC
The difference is Phoenix played in an arena that held 16,210 for hockey before Jobing.com Arena opened.

Carolina played in an arena that held 21,273 for hockey, granted they played at Greensboro Coliseum which nobody wanted to go to, so it's not like attendance was booming there but they at least had the capacity to seat a lot of fans.

Colorado also played in an arena that held a little over 16,000 for hockey while Pepsi Center was being built.

Key Arena holds 11,000 for hockey. That's just way to small to play in even for a couple years imo.

Yeah you completely missed my point though. I said it was just an example. A better example to suit you, I guess, would be Cincinatti (again, ignoring other factors). US Bank Arena would be a relocated team's home at first, but they'd be building a new one as that building is not up to NHL standards. That was my only point.
 

Koss

Registered User
Payroll is not why most of the teams that lose money do so. 10 of the 16 teams that lost money in 2010 had over 50% debt/value. Of course, the league is going to sell the need to reduce payroll to the fans exactly this way... "we lose money"

The league won't contract because there is no reason to. There are buyers available. I firmly believe that if ASG was wanting to package all three pieces together, the Thrashers would likely be staying in Atlanta in the long run. If the last resort is relocation, then so be it, but there will always be buyers for NHL teams.

If that's the case, it would seem pretty insane to promote owners who don't have the money to buy an NHL franchise and too ignore those with the means to buy franchises outright.
 

Steve Passless*

Guest
Your post above demonstrates some lack of knowledge of Florida geography. People from the east coast aren't going to drive across the Everglades at night to watch a hockey game. It also demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the demographics. Those fans who came from "up North" still love their original teams. If the Panthers leave, Tampa won't win those fans. The Panthers could have won many of them over rather easily, if they just didn't suck so badly for so long.

So if people aren't willing to drive far to see a team they didn't grow up liking, then how do you expect this to keep working?
 

Mantha Poodoo

Playoff Beard
Jun 5, 2008
4,109
0
So if people aren't willing to drive far to see a team they didn't grow up liking, then how do you expect this to keep working?

By putting teams in locations that they don't have to drive through a couple hundred miles of swamp to see a team. They could put one in Miami and call it the Panthers. :sarcasm:
 

GKJ

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
186,609
38,583
The league will never contract while Bettman is the GM, and likely never will as long as there is a union.
 

not a trapdoor

I swallowed my keys
Apr 13, 2011
254
0
Sydney
The league will never contract while Bettman is the GM, and likely never will as long as there is a union.

True. It's something the union would fight heavily against.

Furthermore, it's unlikely to contract if it can help it, since that would require the other owners to basically buy any contracting franchises back - which effectively takes capital out of the still-existing franchises (or their owners' pockets).

A franchise collapse/fold is more likely (but still a long shot).
 

BadHammy*

Guest
We're going to need a relocation fee or two to offset the losses of the "big 3" of money losers if the NHL is to continue down this same road. Frankly, I'm expecting at least one to happen eventually, so who knows. But if I had to play the percentages...
 

Dado

Guest
A franchise collapse/fold is more likely (but still a long shot).

I'd say the odds of that happening are 100% since it has already happened. Coyotes were collapsed into bankruptcy and purchased by the league itself - and are now going into a third season of being run by the league itself.
 

not a trapdoor

I swallowed my keys
Apr 13, 2011
254
0
Sydney
I'd say the odds of that happening are 100% since it has already happened. Coyotes were collapsed into bankruptcy and purchased by the league itself - and are now going into a third season of being run by the league itself.

True. I should have been a little more specific; I'm referring to the number of teams in the league actually reducing in number through a franchise actually being unable to continue operations & folding. Phoenix hasn't done that (largely because the NHL doesn't want to contract the franchise, mind you). This hasn't happened in the NHL for a long time (maybe the NY Americans during WWII - a long time ago anyway).
 
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Dado

Guest
I agree, that's exactly how I expect contraction to happen. The league wont buy out a team to shut it down, they'll just let it spiral down the drain.
 

not a trapdoor

I swallowed my keys
Apr 13, 2011
254
0
Sydney
I agree, that's exactly how I expect contraction to happen. The league wont buy out a team to shut it down, they'll just let it spiral down the drain.

I assume you mean as long as a certain would-be-owner isn't trying to snatch the franchise & take to Hamilton? :sarcasm:
 

Shawa666

Registered User
May 25, 2010
1,602
3
Québec, Qc, Ca
True. I should have been a little more specific; I'm referring to the number of teams in the league actually reducing in number through a franchise actually being unable to continue operations & folding. Phoenix hasn't done that (largely because the NHL doesn't want to contract the franchise, mind you). This hasn't happened in the NHL for a long time (maybe the NY Americans during WWII - a long time ago anyway).

Cleveland folded into The minny North Stars.
 
Jan 19, 2006
7,347
1
So if people aren't willing to drive far to see a team they didn't grow up liking, then how do you expect this to keep working?

Did you miss the part about driving across an unlit two lane road with swamp (the Everglades) on either side of you for an hour and a half in the middle of the night?
 

Bucky_Hoyt

Registered User
Dec 11, 2005
600
46
Singapore
Having an 11000ish seater as a temporary solution while another is being built has happened 2x in my recent memory, though both were for expansion teams:

Ottawa played in the Civic Centre for 3 years (around 10k)
San Jose played in the Cow Palace for 2 years (around 11k)

So Seattle may not be completely ruled out under that scenario but I would imagine if they could make some adjustments to the Tacoma Dome (which seats anywhere from 5000-23000 depending on configuration), it might work. Again, LONG SHOT at this point in time.

Chances are, if Seattle was going to go for an NHL team, it would be long after they secured another NBA team via expansion or relocation (perhaps the Kings or Bucks?) so not likely to happen for a LONG time.
 

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