The Mayor and Lebreton - public funds for Lebreton

Status
Not open for further replies.

RandR

Registered User
May 15, 2011
1,911
425
This is a non-starter. Absolutely not a single cent of my tax dollars should go to funding a billionaire sports owner and millionaire athletes, especially when that owner is named Eugene Melnyk and he lives in Barbados.

And I don't mind paying the taxes that I do. There are just so many far more important uses of those dollars.
 

supsens

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
6,577
2,000
He significantly reduces the amount of tax he has to pay on global business and personal income by living in Barbados. He lives there as a tax avoidance strategy. Fair play to him, but don't come asking for public money when you decided to live your life like that.

He has to pay the same taxes, a tax treaty is in place so he does not get penalized and have to pay the taxes again to barbados. It does not sheild against money made in canada.
 

Canadian Time

Registered User
Mar 2, 2002
2,193
327
Visit site
It's a tough debate. I'm fine with public money being used in the form of favourable tax rates or reduced utilities, something like that, but I understand both sides of the issue.

While an NHL team probably doesn't return gobs of money to the community, there is an ephemeral value to having a team in your city that I think has great value. There is nothing better when the entire city rallies behind the team, a definite buzz. In short, it makes it a better city to live in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: aragorn

93LEAFS

Registered User
Nov 7, 2009
33,978
21,075
Toronto
He has to pay the same taxes, a tax treaty is in place so he does not get penalized and have to pay the taxes again to barbados. It does not sheild against money made in canada.
Yes, it does, he gets taxed only at 25% (and then hardly taxed in Barbados). It absolutely reduces his overall tax exposure. He became a non-resident purposefully to avoid his tax exposure. Fair play to him, but if you want to game the system, don't come asking for public money.

Do you honestly think he purposefully spends 183 days a year outside of Canada, just because he likes it there more (outside of the taxes)? It's purely a tax play, and to say it isn't is delusional.

And that's before you get into the corporate tax-loopholes he took advantage of by living in Barbados, which Harper cracked down on.
 
Last edited:

BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
28,645
23,351
East Coast
Yes, it does, he gets taxed only at 25% (and then hardly taxed in Barbados). It absolutely reduces his overall tax exposure. He became a non-resident purposefully to avoid his tax exposure. Fair play to him, but if you want to game the system, don't come asking for public money.

Do you honestly think he purposefully spends 183 days a year outside of Canada, just because he likes it there more (outside of the taxes)? It's purely a tax play, and to say it isn't is delusional.

And that's before you get into the corporate tax-loopholes he took advantage of by living in Barbados, which Harper cracked down on.
You're going down a road that will end in lots of frustration, I'd just let it be
 

DrEasy

Out rumptackling
Oct 3, 2010
11,012
6,709
Stützville
There's so many better ways to use public money than on entertainment: health, education, transportation, culture, infrastructure. And when we're finally at a good place in those respects, then the city will be attractive enough that rich people will fall over each other to fund an arena.
 

supsens

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
6,577
2,000
Yes, it does, he gets taxed only at 25% (and then hardly taxed in Barbados). It absolutely reduces his overall tax exposure. He became a non-resident purposefully to avoid his tax exposure. Fair play to him, but if you want to game the system, don't come asking for public money.

Do you honestly think he purposefully spends 183 days a year outside of Canada, just because he likes it there more (outside of the taxes)? It's purely a tax play, and to say it isn't is delusional.

And that's before you get into the corporate tax-loopholes he took advantage of by living in Barbados, which Harper cracked down on.

Im fairly certain it only sheilds a canadian company from international income it not does not protect it from income made in canada, the company must be listed as an international business and selling goods to Canada and Barbados is forbidden, the company can not have canadian employies, The second any goods are sold in canada or barbados that income is disqualified from the 'international' income.

And the sens are a canadian company. So there is that.

His barbados living is to avoid taxes but not the sens taxes.
 
Last edited:

CanadianHockey

Smith - Alfie
Jul 3, 2009
30,584
558
Petawawa
twitter.com
The city may have lost out on the anticipated revenue of up to 4000 condos. Could be an extra 16-20M in taxation per year.

I understand your sentiments, though. It is a very divisive topic. I am not sold on public money, but was intrigued by the points he made. There isn't going to be another Lebreton Flats.

I don't agree with how this is being framed.

The demise of the Rendezvous bid does not mean the city will never realize revenue from the project. The city will still realize that revenue, just not for another few years.
If realizing that revenue quickly is your biggest concern, then shouldn't the retroactive solution have been to accept Devcore's proposal (which had the financial stability to see it through to completion), rather than to have publicly subsidized the winning bid?

The Jame Bagnall article in today's paper brings this issue up as well.

"Finally, since the LeBreton project is to benefit Ottawa as a whole, some taxpayer funding is justified — especially if it improves the likelihood this thing will actually get done. Later, it now turns out, rather than sooner."

Bagnall: What Ottawa can learn from this Senators-LeBreton mess

His core argument is actually that the NCC/City should have done a better job weighting financial stability & project management in its bid evaluation criteria (eg Trinity had never worked with Melnyk before, Melnyk is a wildcard).

He brings up public subsidies as a throwaway final remark, not as part of a well developed argument.

Actually, it kind of undermines his earlier arguments. If you apply more rigorous evaluation criteria, then you'd assess more risk to the Rendezvous bid. So then, why the f*** would you offer to throw public money behind the riskier bid? Why not just select the Devcore bid, which doesn't require any public subsidization.

Besides, taxpayers are already taking major risks to increase the likelihood that this project gets accomplished (taxpayers already funded and implemented the mass transit system that will service the area, and are going to reimburse for land remediation costs that are a bit of an unknown at this point).

Public funds for the public spaces, sure. For the private arena and Condo's? Hell no.

Edit: Just noticed the OP that the concept is of a public arena, which is fine so long as the public reaps fair benefit (profits) of it.

The concept of a publicly owned rink bothers me, for two reasons. First, in this specific case, because Melnyk has made it very obvious that he would want to operate the rink, including any revenues from naming rights. I don't see how the city would be able to reach an agreement with him that doesn't f*** over taxpayers. Second, I'm wary about shifting the long-term costs for upkeep & divestment onto taxpayers, and am skeptical about the government's ability to plan and commit to a long-term project like that, given our short electoral cycles.
 
Last edited:

supsens

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
6,577
2,000
You're going down a road that will end in lots of frustration, I'd just let it be

The sens are owned by capital sports holding inc. Based out of canada. I have no idea why you guys always act so crazy.
Wanna talk fustration?
 

foggyvisor

Registered User
Jun 28, 2018
1,925
2,690
The sens are owned by capital sports holding inc. Based out of canada. I have no idea why you guys always act so crazy.
Wanna talk fustration?

LOL

You're right, there's no financial link between Melnyk and the Senators.
 

Inkling

Same Old Hockey
Nov 27, 2006
5,655
679
Ottawa
Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg and Ottawa are Canadian NHL cities where the arena was built privately. (I think the govt. had a small contribution in Wpg but it was mostly private) Only Edmonton and Calgary (Alberta, ironically) were built by the public.

Since it's established already that private money builds arenas in Canada, including in smaller markets, I don't think we should buy anyone's B.S. that it should change for Lebreton. Edmonton was the exception to the rule, not typical.
 

Calvin123

Registered User
Sep 18, 2006
45
74
The sens are owned by capital sports holding inc. Based out of canada. I have no idea why you guys always act so crazy.
Wanna talk fustration?

Given that business taxes are paid on profits, and losses can be carried forward, how much tax do you think any Capital Sports, or any other Senators related company is paying to the Federal or Provincial governments?

By living in Barbados he essentially avoids paying any taxes in Canada.

They do pay property taxes, but those won't change substantially if they move from Kanata to Lebreton. And if the leave Ottawa, whoever ends up buying the building will pay roughly the same amount of tax.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterSidorkiewicz

supsens

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
6,577
2,000
[Mod QDP]

You guys would vote the same on everything no matter how stupid it sounds or is. Now your trying to tell me a canadian company based in canada pays no taxes cause Melnyk.
Anyway as soon as the price is right he will sell, due to the fact he has children and will die soon and half the idiots in here will think they made it happen.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

supsens

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
6,577
2,000
Given that business taxes are paid on profits, and losses can be carried forward, how much tax do you think any Capital Sports, or any other Senators related company is paying to the Federal or Provincial governments?

By living in Barbados he essentially avoids paying any taxes in Canada.

They do pay property taxes, but those won't change substantially if they move from Kanata to Lebreton. And if the leave Ottawa, whoever ends up buying the building will pay roughly the same amount of tax.

How many hockey teams show profit or even make a profit? Quit acting like things are different here and evil Melnyk is out to get you.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,167
9,909
The city may have lost out on the anticipated revenue of up to 4000 condos. Could be an extra 16-20M in taxation per year.

This is the same kind of silly arguments people use to defend Liquor Control Boards or other government monopolies.

It is a very weak argument.
 
Last edited:

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,856
31,071
The concept of a publicly owned rink bothers me, for two reasons. First, in this specific case, because Melnyk has made it very obvious that he would want to operate the rink, including any revenues from naming rights. I don't see how the city would be able to reach an agreement with him that doesn't **** over taxpayers. Second, I'm wary about shifting the long-term costs for upkeep & divestment onto taxpayers, and am skeptical about the government's ability to plan and commit to a long-term project like that, given our short electoral cycles.

Yeah, I'm not overly confident in the ability of the gov't to run it, and I understand Melnyk and other sports teams wouldn't be nearly as interested in a model where the gov't actually gets a fair share of the profits, so it's mostly a moot point. It could be done well in theory, but I truly suspect it wouldn't.
 

BK201

Registered User
Apr 11, 2011
10,815
308
Yes, it does, he gets taxed only at 25% (and then hardly taxed in Barbados). It absolutely reduces his overall tax exposure. He became a non-resident purposefully to avoid his tax exposure. Fair play to him, but if you want to game the system, don't come asking for public money.

Do you honestly think he purposefully spends 183 days a year outside of Canada, just because he likes it there more (outside of the taxes)? It's purely a tax play, and to say it isn't is delusional.

And that's before you get into the corporate tax-loopholes he took advantage of by living in Barbados, which Harper cracked down on.

This can be common practice many countries don't charge capital gains tax but if you were investing through that country but a canadian residence you owe CRA taxes based on your profit and other factors.

It is illegal to not pay your taxes, this is what people are doing in swiss bank accounts as an example or what we reffer to as tax havens but really it is tax evassion, and fraud.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterSidorkiewicz

topshelf15

Registered User
May 5, 2009
27,993
6,005
I have no issue with the government investing tax dollars in an enterprise that has it making money ,off the investment...
 

BK201

Registered User
Apr 11, 2011
10,815
308
He has to pay the same taxes, a tax treaty is in place so he does not get penalized and have to pay the taxes again to barbados. It does not sheild against money made in canada.

Your right he will have to pay taxes on income, and senators organization i assume is corporate and is subject to coporate tax laws.

Theres always work arounds though. For example as a non canadiam resident he could potentially have the org expense his life and draw next to nothing in income which should be 100% legal.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,904
9,320
Like others have already said, there's no way we should be GIFTING money to any major for-profit business or billionaire. (Obviously startup business and entrepreneurship programs for the little guys just starting out are an exception.)

However, I am definitely willing to have the government INVEST in a business like pro sports if it means a reasonable return for the taxpayer. If the city gets a percentage of arena revenues in addition to the usual tax revenues, then I can see public money going to the Sens.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad