The Mayor and Lebreton - public funds for Lebreton

[coladin]

I think the City did pretty well at Lansdowne. A lot of new condos paying taxes and they are getting their returns, even if OSEG is still in the red.

I am not convinced that public money is the right thing to do. But I feel, like Kelly Egan does, that there is only one Lebreton Flats. Maybe more city involvement, not gifting but financing some sort of arrangement , could have made a difference?

Then again, with Melnyk and Ruddy it probably wouldn't have mattered. I just don't feel like waiting another 5 years when, right now, there should be dump trucks and cranes making a mess right now.

Hopefully Devcore can simply take over/partner the RVL bid. Somehow.

 

[CanadianHockey]

I have no issue with the government investing tax dollars in an enterprise that has it making money ,off the investment...

Like others have already said, there's no way we should be GIFTING money to any major for-profit business or billionaire. (Obviously startup business and entrepreneurship programs for the little guys just starting out are an exception.)

However, I am definitely willing to have the government INVEST in a business like pro sports if it means a reasonable return for the taxpayer. If the city gets a percentage of arena revenues in addition to the usual tax revenues, then I can see public money going to the Sens.

Depends on the specifics of the arrangement.

If we go the same route the city of Edmonton took, you're looking at a massive government investment up front that only realizes profit a decade or two down the road. Katz spent only about $25M up front for the downtown revitalization. The rest of his contribution is through a 35 year lease, which gives him all operating and naming revenues.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I think the City did pretty well at Lansdowne.

It's ugly as sin and as sterile as a doctor's office.

Lansdowne is an outdoor mall. It is a monument to how boring Ottawa is.

 

[Stylizer1]

It's ugly as sin and as sterile as a doctor's office.

Lansdowne is an outdoor mall. It is a monument to how boring Ottawa is.

There is nothing there to attract people on non game days. Even the farmers market has lost its charm. They should move it back to Brewer Park.

 

[NorthCoast]

I think the City did pretty well at Lansdowne. A lot of new condos paying taxes and they are getting their returns, even if OSEG is still in the red.

I am not convinced that public money is the right thing to do. But I feel, like Kelly Egan does, that there is only one Lebreton Flats. Maybe more city involvement, not gifting but financing some sort of arrangement , could have made a difference?

Then again, with Melnyk and Ruddy it probably wouldn't have mattered. I just don't feel like waiting another 5 years when, right now, there should be dump trucks and cranes making a mess right now.

Hopefully Devcore can simply take over/partner the RVL bid. Somehow.

The city should offer to match Melnyk dollar for dollar and watch him squirm. (Condo cash excluded)

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The city should offer to match Melnyk dollar for dollar and watch him squirm. (Condo cash excluded)

I suspect that you're assuming that EM is broke, based totally on the speculation that swirls around in this and other forums, right?

Well he may have been wealthier in the past, but Canadian Business Magazine, in their Nov. 9th 2017 issue, estimated his wealth at $1.15 billion, good for the 92nd richest Canadian.

Canada’s Richest People: The Complete Top 100 Ranking

Business Insider, in March of this year, ranked him as the 19th wealthiest NHL owner, ahead of Capitals owner Ted Leonsis and behind Rangers owner James Dolan.

The 23 richest billionaire NHL franchise owners — and how they made their fortune

 

[LuckyPierre]

I suspect that you're assuming that EM is broke, based totally on the speculation that swirls around in this and other forums, right?

Well he may have been wealthier in the past, but Canadian Business Magazine, in their Nov. 9th 2017 issue, estimated his wealth at $1.15 billion, good for the 92nd richest Canadian.

Canada’s Richest People: The Complete Top 100 Ranking

Business Insider, in March of this year, ranked him as the 19th wealthiest NHL owner, ahead of Capitals owner Ted Leonsis and behind Rangers owner James Dolan.

The 23 richest billionaire NHL franchise owners — and how they made their fortune

That list doesn't include David Thomson, who's net worth is above 20 billion. And who's company gave both Ted Leonsis and Eugene Melnyk their first break by acquiring their publishing ventures.

 

[NorthCoast]

I suspect that you're assuming that EM is broke, based totally on the speculation that swirls around in this and other forums, right?

Well he may have been wealthier in the past, but Canadian Business Magazine, in their Nov. 9th 2017 issue, estimated his wealth at $1.15 billion, good for the 92nd richest Canadian.

Canada’s Richest People: The Complete Top 100 Ranking

Business Insider, in March of this year, ranked him as the 19th wealthiest NHL owner, ahead of Capitals owner Ted Leonsis and behind Rangers owner James Dolan.

The 23 richest billionaire NHL franchise owners — and how they made their fortune

No.

I've done my own research and cannot find anything that backs up a worth of 1.15 bil, and in fact everything I find says he has lost that fortune.

I have also heard from my own sources who I trust.


I also have to wonder why EMs financing fell through? Because if you have 1.15 bil, Then you should have enough assets to borrow a what he is seeking.

I also have to wonder why (if rumors from media sources are true) he is entertaining offers for a minority owner. Why does he need the money if he's not broke?


If he's not broke. Great. Let's get lebreton going. I mean, what's stopping him?

 

[JD1]

No.

I've done my own research and cannot find anything that backs up a worth of 1.15 bil, and in fact everything I find says he has lost that fortune.

I have also heard from my own sources who I trust.


I also have to wonder why EMs financing fell through? Because if you have 1.15 bil, Then you should have enough assets to borrow a what he is seeking.

I also have to wonder why (if rumors from media sources are true) he is entertaining offers for a minority owner. Why does he need the money if he's not broke?


If he's not broke. Great. Let's get lebreton going. I mean, what's stopping him?

from what I've read in those magazines that rank rich people his wealth is almost completely privately held so you are looking for something in the public domain that is not there.

when you say his financing fell through you are referring to Lebreton? I don't think his financing fell through at all. There no evidence anywhere that suggests that is true....other than Ruddy saying so and him not paying is half of about 3M in expenses.

long before this thing fell apart I was on this board questioning the economics of it. I don't think his financing fell apart, I think it was a risk / reward deal that had the risk profile elevated so he wouldn't sign the term sheet. That's quite different than saying his financing fell through.

 

[JD1]

No.

I've done my own research and cannot find anything that backs up a worth of 1.15 bil, and in fact everything I find says he has lost that fortune.

I have also heard from my own sources who I trust.


I also have to wonder why EMs financing fell through? Because if you have 1.15 bil, Then you should have enough assets to borrow a what he is seeking.

I also have to wonder why (if rumors from media sources are true) he is entertaining offers for a minority owner. Why does he need the money if he's not broke?


If he's not broke. Great. Let's get lebreton going. I mean, what's stopping him?

what have you found that suggests he lost his fortune?

what's stopping him is the deal doesn't make sense.

 

[Yak]

what have you found that suggests he lost his fortune?

what's stopping him is the deal doesn't make sense.

Nothing points to that he hasn't lost his fortune by the way he has ran this franchise. Period.

 

[Tuna99]

The Forbes evulations are a joke. They said Trump was worth $4.5 Billion when people close to him
say he is worth way less at $400 million - who cares what Trump is worth but the Forbes valuation is off by $4.1 Billion, so they don’t actually know what is going on, they guess

 

[Micklebot]

The Forbes evulations are a joke. They said Trump was worth $4.5 Billion when people close to him
say he is worth way less at $400 million - who cares what Trump is worth but the Forbes valuation is off by $4.1 Billion, so they don’t actually know what is going on, they guess

the problem is people can game their system. For the most part, it seems people don't, but some people have. There was an article I read a while back about this, and it's not just people trying to make themselves look like they are more wealthy (typically entrepreneurs who see perceived wealth as a tool that allows them to broker better deals) but also people trying to hide their wealth (with wealth comes a lot of organizations harassing you for money apparently). That's why to me, any Forbes or similar valuations are nice for talking points, but not much more. They contain some data points that are verifiable, but there's also some guesswork going on.

 

[supsens]

The Forbes evulations are a joke. They said Trump was worth $4.5 Billion when people close to him
say he is worth way less at $400 million - who cares what Trump is worth but the Forbes valuation is off by $4.1 Billion, so they don’t actually know what is going on, they guess

Ya I doubt that, trump has to be worth more then the sens, his brand(name) is huuuuge.
Forbes estimated 3.1 mostly off real estate holdings

 

[JD1]

the problem is people can game their system. For the most part, it seems people don't, but some people have. There was an article I read a while back about this, and it's not just people trying to make themselves look like they are more wealthy (typically entrepreneurs who see perceived wealth as a tool that allows them to broker better deals) but also people trying to hide their wealth (with wealth comes a lot of organizations harassing you for money apparently). That's why to me, any Forbes or similar valuations are nice for talking points, but not much more. They contain some data points that are verifiable, but there's also some guesswork going on.

You're right there is some guess work going on but they've been at that a long time and the authors have the academic credentials and they publish their evaluation methodology. It will never be flawless because the wealth is all privately held but the Forbes analysis is the most comprehensive attempt to analyze the financial health of sports teams and their results are both highly anticipated and widely reported in North America

 

[Micklebot]

You're right there is some guess work going on but they've been at that a long time and the authors have the academic credentials and they publish their evaluation methodology. It will never be flawless because the wealth is all privately held but the Forbes analysis is the most comprehensive attempt to analyze the financial health of sports teams and their results are both highly anticipated and widely reported in North America

Absolutely, but like has been discussed here and in the past, the are some cases where it has been wildly off. I'll assume it's in the general area until I have evidence to suggest otherwise, but at the same time, keep in the back of my mind that when an incentive exists to mislead forbes, there are ways to make that happen.

The big thing is I suspect Forbes isn't typically looking very hard for evidence of manipulation,

 

[JD1]

Absolutely, but like has been discussed here and in the past, the are some cases where it has been wildly off. I'll assume it's in the general area until I have evidence to suggest otherwise, but at the same time, keep in the back of my mind that when an incentive exists to mislead forbes, there are ways to make that happen.

The big thing is I suspect Forbes isn't typically looking very hard for evidence of manipulation,

I'll agree they aren't looking hard for evidence of manipulation however I think that applies more to the ranking of billionnaires than sports teams evaluations.

With sports team evaluations they are using almost uniformly available public data and applying a methodology across all teams

 

[topshelf15]

what have you found that suggests he lost his fortune?

what's stopping him is the deal doesn't make sense.

Come on JDI you are a pretty smart guy from what I have seen....From where we sit EM did more tire kicking and dreaming,than actually getting down to numbers

 

[JD1]

Come on JDI you are a pretty smart guy from what I have seen....From where we sit EM did more tire kicking and dreaming,than actually getting down to numbers

Thanks for the compliment

I think the deal was too much risk. I've said that for a long time. My thinking is Melnyk got his health back, looked closely at the deal and said no f***ing way, canned Leeder and here we are

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Come on JDI you are a pretty smart guy from what I have seen....From where we sit EM did more tire kicking and dreaming,than actually getting down to numbers

Don't you consider commissioning a condo viability survey/report to help determine the financial viability of the LeBreton Flats proposal, in regards to the proximity to other Condo projects, like 900 Albert and Zibi, and using that, in part, to launch his lawsuit, "getting down to number"?

 

[topshelf15]

Thanks for the compliment

I think the deal was too much risk. I've said that for a long time. My thinking is Melnyk got his health back, looked closely at the deal and said no ****ing way, canned Leeder and here we are

Yep that is possible for sure...But when I look at the constant flip flopping going on by him ,on him owning or not owning the arena ...Leads me to believe he may be looking for one last big quick haul...Rather than him sticking it out on a longer term of generated wealth

 

[Micklebot]

I'll agree they aren't looking hard for evidence of manipulation however I think that applies more to the ranking of billionnaires than sports teams evaluations.

With sports team evaluations they are using almost uniformly available public data and applying a methodology across all teams

Agreed. Much easier to estimate a value on a team than the net worth of a person. A lot of the team info is publicly reported. They might be guessing on expenses, and revenues to some degree (how many tickets were giveaways for example), but the valuation is more about what somebody will pay and with the NHL or any sports franchise, there a degree to which that's not linked to how much profit the team makes.

 

[topshelf15]

Don't you consider commissioning a condo viability survey/report to help determine the financial viability of the LeBreton Flats proposal, in regards to the proximity to other Condo projects, like 900 Albert and Zibi, and using that, in part, to launch his lawsuit, "getting down to number"?

Condos are a tricky business for sure,as with them location is key...This is why I believe that Lebreton will be scaled down from the original ,and will be completely finished over time ...It short Lebreton will be a long term project,with the arena ,a few condo,s and some shops ...With the flexibilty built in to add more features at a later date

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Condos are a tricky business for sure,as with them location is key...This is why I believe that Lebreton will be scaled down from the original ,and will be completely finished over time ...It short Lebreton will be a long term project,with the arena ,a few condo,s and some shops ...With the flexibilty built in to add more features at a later date

So more than "tire kicking and dreaming" on Melnyk's part then?

 

[supsens]

Yep that is possible for sure...But when I look at the constant flip flopping going on by him ,on him owning or not owning the arena ...Leads me to believe he may be looking for one last big quick haul...Rather than him sticking it out on a longer term of generated wealth

I think he offered Ruddy the whole project and a team to play in the rink in order to try and sheild against the losses he is being sued for. And ya he wants a big haul, anyone would