The Management Thread | Part Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers

[I am toxic]

No I don't get it, lol, because what you are writing is incredibly disingenuous.

Something is foreign if it is strange or unfamiliar, or from another country. Is French really that strange and unfamiliar for people living in Canada, where it is an official language?

Why is this even necessary? Best case he is being lazy, worst case it's incompetence - but let's change the meaning of words to make Jim look better.

Other than revisionist history, what else is there?


Oh, right, I forgot. Wait and see.

 

[tyhee]

My god, benning is a moron of a gm. No matter what happened this season short of a SCF appearance would have changed that opinion of him.

Amazing, isn't it:

• 
  2020 Jim Gregory General Manager of the Year Award voting
  Pts (1st-2nd-3rd)
  1. Lou Lamoriello, NYI 86 (11-9-4)
  2. Julien BriseBois, TBL 71 (8-8-7)
  3. Jim Nill, DAL 61 (8-6-3)
  4. Joe Sakic, COL 60 (5-10-5)
  5. Kelly McCrimmon, VGK 36 (4-3-7)
  6. Jim Benning, VAN 29 (3-3-5)
  7. Chuck Fletcher, PHI 12 (1-1-4)
  8. Jeff Gorton, NYR 2 (0-0-2)
  9. Kevin Cheveldayoff, WPG 1 (0-0-1)
  Don Sweeney, BOS 1 (0-0-1)
  Don Waddell, CAR 1 (0-0-1)
  I find it difficult to understand how he got a vote, but perhaps there are voters that don't follow other and just go by what happened relative to preseason predictions, as if general managers jobs don't include planning beyond the current season.

 

[sting101]

If COVID didn't hit, it's entirely fair to question whether they would've even made the playoffs at all given the way they were free-falling in the standings over the last few weeks before the stoppage. So to say it feels lucky isn't out of the realm of plausibility.

Sure but this does nothing to disprove that they were a good team which ultimately won 2 rounds against Western opponents.

If i said we should have made the playoffs in 15/16 but the injuries caused us not to it wouldn't hold much value around here.

I don't think anyone sane is propping us up as a contender last year. Their is still work to do which is why moving away from older players might feel like the wrong thing to do but isn't

 

[4Twenty]

Amazing, isn't it:

• 
  2020 Jim Gregory General Manager of the Year Award voting
  Pts (1st-2nd-3rd)
  1. Lou Lamoriello, NYI 86 (11-9-4)
  2. Julien BriseBois, TBL 71 (8-8-7)
  3. Jim Nill, DAL 61 (8-6-3)
  4. Joe Sakic, COL 60 (5-10-5)
  5. Kelly McCrimmon, VGK 36 (4-3-7)
  6. Jim Benning, VAN 29 (3-3-5)
  7. Chuck Fletcher, PHI 12 (1-1-4)
  8. Jeff Gorton, NYR 2 (0-0-2)
  9. Kevin Cheveldayoff, WPG 1 (0-0-1)
  Don Sweeney, BOS 1 (0-0-1)
  Don Waddell, CAR 1 (0-0-1)
  I find it difficult to understand how he got a vote, but perhaps there are voters that don't follow other and just go by what happened relative to preseason predictions, as if general managers jobs don't include planning beyond the current season.

They were voted on after the 2nd round of the playoffs. 7 of the top 8 were in the 2nd round.

That’s about as much analysis went into it.

 

[4Twenty]

Sure but this does nothing to disprove that they were a good team which ultimately won 2 rounds against Western opponents.

If i said we should have made the playoffs in 15/16 but the injuries caused us not to it wouldn't hold much value around here.

I don't think anyone sane is propping us up as a contender last year. Their is still work to do which is why moving away from older players might feel like the wrong thing to do but isn't

We want them to be a contender. 3 of the players that left were among the best half of the roster.

They didn’t move away from old players. They were forced to keep older players in lieu of quality players.

 

[I am toxic]

In what bizarro universe are Loui and Beagle younger than Tanev, Marky and Stecher?

Oh, right, in HFBenningland.

 

[tyhee]

This is one of the most pathetic starts to an offseason in Jim Benning's tenure.

Just stunned by the sheer amount of important, positively contributing players that we've bled without replacing them, and no clear path to replacing them due to lack of assets/capspace/cash/NHL ready prospects.

I am actually of the view that Benning is the same Benning he's always been, but with fewer options and less room for error this year.

 

[sting101]

The flat gap is still a higher number than it was.

I would rather be reasonable than hopeful. And I won’t be vilifying the kids as I imagine you will be if they sign market value deals it seems you might.

The thing is taking less doesn’t guarantee winning. Professional sports careers are finite and don’t have a long earning windows.

I would just expect them to be paid like top 20 players and be happy about it while hoping the club can find someone to manage building around them.

Expect more from your GM rather than expecting superstars to take haircuts because of his incompetence.

That very well could be the case. I hope not and i will judge the player on his play, his role and salary. That's the responsibility you take with a big contract.

 

[tyhee]

...
In two years, at the trade deadline, the new management group will be trying to get the team back on track by trading JT Miller at the deadline for futures. It's universally acknowledged that Benning hit a home run with that deal, so there's no question Miller should bring back more than was given up for him.

Not universally acknowledged. I took the position at the time that it was a mistake regardless of how well Miller played and the impact he had, short of the Canucks winning the Cup. I've never changed that position.

They succeeded in getting a good player in the wrong circumstances. Getting Miller succeeded, along with giving up assets for a short term rental and a rescue from falling performance by the season being stopped, in getting the Canucks into the playoffs before they return to the depths of the league standings.

Otoh, if they get more for him than they gave up, that could change my view of the trade. That wouldn't happen while Benning is GM, though.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Amazing, isn't it:

• 
  2020 Jim Gregory General Manager of the Year Award voting
  Pts (1st-2nd-3rd)
  1. Lou Lamoriello, NYI 86 (11-9-4)
  2. Julien BriseBois, TBL 71 (8-8-7)
  3. Jim Nill, DAL 61 (8-6-3)
  4. Joe Sakic, COL 60 (5-10-5)
  5. Kelly McCrimmon, VGK 36 (4-3-7)
  6. Jim Benning, VAN 29 (3-3-5)
  7. Chuck Fletcher, PHI 12 (1-1-4)
  8. Jeff Gorton, NYR 2 (0-0-2)
  9. Kevin Cheveldayoff, WPG 1 (0-0-1)
  Don Sweeney, BOS 1 (0-0-1)
  Don Waddell, CAR 1 (0-0-1)
  I find it difficult to understand how he got a vote, but perhaps there are voters that don't follow other and just go by what happened relative to preseason predictions, as if general managers jobs don't include planning beyond the current season.

As mentioned, largely due to the playoff records. But also because Benning went all-in last offseason with the Myers, Ferland, Benn, and Fantenberg signings along with trading for Miller and Toffoli. He made a huge amount of moves to benefit 1 season while sacrificing the long-term competitiveness of the team, already beginning this season.

 

[nowhereman]

I'm a little confused at all the anger here (well, not really). Committing longterm big money to Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli are the sort of moves that can kill a team right in the middle of their actual window. Whether his hand was forced or not, moving on from these players was the prudent decision and will provide flexibility moving forward. Unfortunately, this will mean for some added pain over the next two years but that will likely result in Benning getting canned. If the Canucks can avoid paying a 37 year old Marsktrom 6 million per year to play out his contract and do so without Jim Benning in the driver's seat, what are you complaining about (besides everything)? Something tells me that, if those UFAs hadn't been playing on the Canucks (and, thus, didn't serve as evidence in the argument for better asset management) most on this site would be screaming at Benning to refrain from biting on those same big-ticket contracts.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Had to unload this somewhere, the canucks subreddit drives me crazy sometimes. This is one of those times.

Ok, so we lost Markstrom. That's not ideal, but it's more than manageable. It is fairly certain if we gave him expansion protection, Demko was gone. Goalies are kinda a volatile asset, but Demko has shown there is something there.

Then we lost Tanev. This one really sucked. He is of diminishing value, but at this stage in where the team needs to be going I have no problem giving him that ballpark of money, the term is a little long though. That's me wearing the business hat. To wear the hockey hat, I just don't see how one can look at how the defense was last season... Immense trouble in breaking up developing plays with the stick, trouble winning board battles and generally a lack of ability in breaking a chain of sustained pressure in our end, and thinking this departure is a positive loss. I've heard end-to-end excuses "The tankers wanted him gone before that, though." Yes, they did. But the team was at a completely different stage of typical progression in the parabolic arc that is franchise success in sports. At the lower end, it makes sense to trade immediate assets for futures. This team now, with guys like Miller, Toffoli, Horvat, up front who are in the window of their mature "complete-game" element, and guys like Pettersson, Boeser, and Hughes breaking in, a Chris Tanev, albeit an ageing Chris Tanev, is a very useful piece.

Losing Stecher was an emotional blow. I do think he is a replaceable player, but I really like him as a player. This would be an understandable move...However,

We have yet to replace them. No one can really know what exactly was or is going on in the war room. But from the outside looking in, it looks like the Canucks put all their eggs in the OEL basket and like my abject disappointment of Easters in the past, the prize was never really coming. They were so focused on this move, and so cap-strapped they really couldn't even pitch workable deals with their pendings. I don't think they should have done this, and this is what precipitated all the losses, really. Imagine a new GM coming into Arizona and his first big move in shipping out OEL for pennies on the dollar when he really didn't have to? It was a pipe dream. They lost out on Barrie, say what you want of him, he's no Tanev replacement but he would have been a net positive. So now, what real options do they have left? Internally, it's Jordie Benn and Tyler Myers on the right side from what I can put together. Jordie Benn who Green is loathe to throw on his off-side and Myers who some fans think because he's 6'7'' he's this huge physical presence and a puck separator. Who to be honest, is OK at best on the defensive side of the puck and not bad on the offensive...4 more years.

Externally, our options...being realistic. No, Benning I don't think will ever offer sheet and RFA so kiss that pipe dream into the wind. 1. Alex Pietrangelo, is never going to work in a world where we want to keep Hughes and Pettersson. 2. Sami Vatanen, I really like this option. Again, not close to Tanev replacement but it's something that is fairly cost controlled. 3. Cody Ceci, ehhhh moving along. 4. Travis Hamonic, for the right price I'd do it. We kinda need someone like this now. I haven't been close enough to see how he's been doing but going purely off reputation maybe he could replace Tanev? Unsure, will have to be enlightened.

Other than those, the market is pretty f***ing thin. Some dark horses like Rutta and Bowey. I honestly think at this point maybe we are even looking at Hughes playing the right side next year. But all the times I rolled my eyes at signing Sutter, Eriksson, Beagle, Myers...I knew this day was coming. It's been a shitty offseason so far for the Canucks, and I fully expect us to take a step back next year. Outside of Green raising Juolevi's career like Lazarus or something, we are not making the playoffs next season. Benning's past ineptitudes which were vehemently defended will come home to roost.

 

[sting101]

We want them to be a contender. 3 of the players that left were among the best half of the roster.

They didn’t move away from old players. They were forced to keep older players in lieu of quality players.

In what bizarro universe are Loui and Beagle younger than Tanev, Marky and Stecher?

Oh, right, in HFBenningland.

If only you could make past deals magically disappear?

You guys would have traded Demko and left the D the same and locked into Tanev as one of the big 3 contracts on D going forward?

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I'm a little confused at all the anger here (well, not really). Committing longterm big money to Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli are the sort of moves that can kill a team right in the middle of their actual window. Whether his hand was forced or not, moving on from these players was the prudent decision and will provide flexibility moving forward. Unfortunately, this will mean for some added pain over the next two years but that will likely result in Benning getting canned. If the Canucks can avoid paying a 37 year old Marsktrom 6 million per year to play out his contract and do so without GM Benning in the driver's seat, what are you complaining about (besides everything)?

The issue is he hasn’t replaced Tanev, Stecher, and Toffoli yet - and there aren’t many great UFAs left that we could afford. After the team re-signs Virtanen, Gaudette, and Leivo, they will have like $4-5 mill to work with - and they have a hole in the top 4 RHD spot.

As predicted, his mismanagement of the cap has resulted in the team taking a big step back while wasting the last year of Pettersson and Hughes’ ELCs. People are mad because the team should be on the upswing, looking to contend, but Benning’s atrocious planning has resulted in the opposite.

 

[nowhereman]

The issue is he hasn’t replaced Tanev, Stecher, and Toffoli yet - and there aren’t many great UFAs left that we could afford. After the team re-signs Virtanen, Gaudette, and Leivo, they will have like $4-5 mill to work with - and they have a hole in the top 4 RHD spot.

As predicted, his mismanagement of the cap has resulted in the team taking a big step back while wasting the last year of Pettersson and Hughes’ ELCs. People are mad because the team should be on the upswing, looking to contend, but Benning’s atrocious planning has resulted in the opposite.

Well, unfortunately, to quote Todd Bertuzzi, "it is what it is". What's done is done and all you can do is hope for a better future; Benning has made this bed and we are all forced to sleep in it. But, like I said, if he can't improve this team and replace the players you've mentioned, it may just cost Benning his job. If that's the case, would you not take that result?

Besides, teams almost never, ever win with young elite talent on their ELCs. Carolina was the only team to do it and they were somewhat of an anomaly in that post-lockout season. More realistically, most teams don't take shots at the Cup until those players are 23-25. By then, the Canucks will likely have significantly more cap room and one of the better cores in the league. And this may be sans Benning.

"I have to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time..."

 

[vanuck]

Sure but this does nothing to disprove that they were a good team which ultimately won 2 rounds against Western opponents.

If i said we should have made the playoffs in 15/16 but the injuries caused us not to it wouldn't hold much value around here.

I don't think anyone sane is propping us up as a contender last year. Their is still work to do which is why moving away from older players might feel like the wrong thing to do but isn't

No one can take the 2nd round appearance away from them, but after Markstrom got injured back in February (IIRC) it was entirely up in the air as to whether we'd make it based on the way we were trending before the shutdown.

Without an All-Star goalie to cover up their poor defensive play all our flaws were massively exposed. It's valid to ask how much longer we could've hung onto a playoff spot.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Well, unfortunately, to quote Todd Bertuzzi, "it is what it is". What's done is done and all you can do is hope for a better future; Benning has made this bed and we are all forced to sleep in it. But, like I said, if he can't improve this team and replace the players you've mentioned, it may just cost Benning his job. If that's the case, would you not take that result?

Besides, teams almost never, ever win with young elite talent on their ELCs. Carolina was the only team to do it and they were somewhat of an anomaly in that post-lockout season. More realistically, most teams don't take shots at the Cup until those players are 23-25. By then, the Canucks will likely have significantly more cap room and one of the better cores in the league. And this may be sans Benning.

"I have to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time..."

Yes, I’d rejoice if Benning gets fired but it’s a few years too late in terms of the best interests of the team.

You’re wrong about the ELCs. Malkin, Conn Smyth winner, was on an ELC in 2009 (and Crosby in 2008 when they made the SCF). Same with Toews/Kane in 2010. Those are just off the top of my head.

The rest of your post just suggests that you might be more apathetic than others.

 

[4Twenty]

I'm a little confused at all the anger here (well, not really). Committing longterm big money to Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli are the sort of moves that can kill a team right in the middle of their actual window. Whether his hand was forced or not, moving on from these players was the prudent decision and will provide flexibility moving forward. Unfortunately, this will mean for some added pain over the next two years but that will likely result in Benning getting canned. If the Canucks can avoid paying a 37 year old Marsktrom 6 million per year to play out his contract and do so without Jim Benning in the driver's seat, what are you complaining about (besides everything)? Something tells me that, if those UFAs hadn't been playing on the Canucks (and, thus, didn't serve as evidence in the argument for better asset management) most on this site would be screaming at Benning to refrain from biting on those same big-ticket contracts.

Don’t understand why you’d be confused. You touch on all the things that people are pissed about.

We know doing nothing is most prudent because of 6 seasons of terrible management by a guy you expect fired for forcing the team into 2 more years of added pain in year 7 and 8 on the job. A year after the rebuild was supposed to be over by trading 1sts. Or a few months ago trading assets for rentals.

Like you see future pain. Him fired. You shouldn’t be confused. You aren’t confused. You get it.

The other annoying thing about stating: doing nothing is more prudent is they signed 5% of their cap to a goalie who likely doesn’t play half the games in the first hour. If you’re going to be patient don’t go wasting cap space on that position right away.

I get that people like that Holtby is a name and whatever but still if you’re going to preach patience you can’t be happy to waste that precious space on someone who plays 40-50 games at best.

 

[garbageteam]

Don’t understand why you’d be confused. You touch on all the things that people are pissed about.

We know doing nothing is most prudent because of 6 seasons of terrible management by a guy you expect fired for forcing the team into 2 more years of added pain in year 7 and 8 on the job. A year after the rebuild was supposed to be over by trading 1sts. Or a few months ago trading assets for rentals.

Like you see future pain. Him fired. You shouldn’t be confused. You aren’t confused. You get it.

The other annoying thing about stating: doing nothing is more prudent is they signed 5% of their cap to a goalie who likely doesn’t play half the games in the first hour. If you’re going to be patient don’t go wasting cap space on that position right away.

I get that people like that Holtby is a name and whatever but still if you’re going to preach patience you can’t be happy to waste that precious space on someone who plays 40-50 games at best.

I'd have been so much happier had they just ran with Demko plus DiPietro or whatever goalie prospect we got and used that extremely valuable money on Tanev, Stetcher, Toffoli etc.

We have zero patience and rightly so for yet another year of avoidable - yes even in this offseason cap hell - regression, I couldn't care less of being proven wrong about Benning if he did a +180.

 

[4Twenty]

If only you could make past deals magically disappear?

You guys would have traded Demko and left the D the same and locked into Tanev as one of the big 3 contracts on D going forward?

I think Demko as a 1m goalie who has a limited sample but just had major exposure could be an extremely valuable asset.

You know how you felt the boys deserved a JT Miller trade and probably earned buying at the deadline?

I think this group earned a chance and I think Markstrom at 6x6 if you had space and assets and the ability to actually manage a team well could be a strong contender. I think probably only Demko is not actually really upset Markstrom is gone.

They’re taking a forced step back when they should be ascending.


I get being prudent because of their predicament but then the Holtby deal doesn’t look prudent.

 

[Lindgren]

Not universally acknowledged. I took the position at the time that it was a mistake regardless of how well Miller played and the impact he had, short of the Canucks winning the Cup. I've never changed that position.

They succeeded in getting a good player in the wrong circumstances. Getting Miller succeeded, along with giving up assets for a short term rental and a rescue from falling performance by the season being stopped, in getting the Canucks into the playoffs before they return to the depths of the league standings.

Otoh, if they get more for him than they gave up, that could change my view of the trade. That wouldn't happen while Benning is GM, though.

In the one discussion I had about this issue, the possibility of trading Miller was the point brought up in response to my claim that the trade was mis-timed. I agree that a deal won't happen under Benning. But I do think his successor will trade Miller, and also Pearson is he's still here at that point, and Myers, if not much has to be given up to get out of that contract. It'll be the second wave of the rebuild.

 

[vanuck]

Yes, I’d rejoice if Benning gets fired but it’s a few years too late in terms of the best interests of the team.

You’re wrong about the ELCs. Malkin, Conn Smyth winner, was on an ELC in 2009 (and Crosby in 2008 when they made the SCF). Same with Toews/Kane in 2010. Those are just off the top of my head.

The rest of your post just suggests that you might be more apathetic than others.

Staal and Ward were on ELCs when the Canes won in 2006.

So were Getzlaf and Perry in 2007.

Like you said already, Malkin too in 2009.

Toews/Kane/Hjalmarsson in 2010.

Though technically not on an ELC, Dumoulin was a key addition for the Pens on their top pairing in 2016 and 2017 while making basically league minimum.

Likewise with Kempny who was making very little with the Caps in 2018.

Hell, we just watched Sergachev, Cirelli and Cernak win it all as big-time contributors to the Bolts while getting paid peanuts. Them needing raises is a big reason why Tampa's in cap trouble right now.

That people are now trying to justify the Canucks taking a step back and wasting the last year of EP/Hughes' ELCs is funny because it's wrong and you could see these false narratives coming from a mile away.

 

[nowhereman]

Yes, I’d rejoice if Benning gets fired but it’s a few years too late in terms of the best interests of the team.

You’re wrong about the ELCs. Malkin, Conn Smyth winner, was on an ELC in 2009 (and Crosby in 2008 when they made the SCF). Same with Toews/Kane in 2010. Those are just off the top of my head.

The rest of your post just suggests that you might be more apathetic than others.

You're right about Malkin, forgot about him. I had just looked at Sid having signed his new massive deal and lumped Geno in there. That said, I have a hard time using a team lead by Crosby/Malkin as an example, since Crosby is a top 5-10 player of all time and Malkin is probably top 30-40. They are the definition of outliers. That Pens roster wasn't actually that good and were carried by the God-like performances of their stars.

Apathy is part of it. I suppose arguing semantics and playing devil's advocate is a self-defense mechanism to cling to any semblance of hope that Benning isn't that bad and we may just pull through. And I'd rather not dwell too hardly on the past, since all that does is lead to frustration and resentment.

 

[bossram]

Staal and Ward were on ELCs when the Canes won in 2006.

So were Getzlaf and Perry in 2007.

Like you said already, Malkin too in 2009.

Toews/Kane/Hjalmarsson in 2010.

Though technically not on an ELC, Dumoulin was a key addition for the Pens on their top pairing in 2016 and 2017 while making basically league minimum.

Likewise with Kempny who was making very little with the Caps in 2018.

Hell, we just watched Sergachev, Cirelli and Cernak win it all as big-time contributors to the Bolts while getting paid peanuts. Them needing raises is a big reason why Tampa's in cap trouble right now.

That people are now trying to justify the Canucks taking a step back and wasting the last year of EP/Hughes' ELCs is funny because it's wrong and you could see these false narratives coming from a mile away.

Yep. So many twitter casuals saying our "window" is in 2-3 years. LOL. When Miller and Horvat's contracts expire? It's the dumbest thing I've heard.

Hughes and Petey are elite. We should be capitalizing on their ELCs, like all true contenders do. Instead, we're back to missing the playoffs.

 

[MS]

MS it happens. It's hilarious when people who never stick their necks out take shots at others that do. And i'm not saying that for this posters case because i don't remember his post history but i know you do and i respect that.

Predicting athletic performance at levels and speeds their brains and bodies have never had to process or deal with is incredibly nuanced. And even once in the NHL its important to be confident and in a role that you can create a positive outcome. That's not an easy thing. look at how many promising yr 1 and 2 players that by yrs 4 and 5 are hanging on to a job or not.

The draft shit pisses me off. Were all playing a bit of a guessing game and are obviously not watching the top50 players 6-10 times live as well as video output. Juolevi had some high end qualities and was on an almost unprecedented role of success by 17. His size and confidence made him project like a cant miss in many ways. I watch a lot of WHL games live and the speed and time is hilarious to an NHL game.

It wasn't just Benning i'm sure they had meetings and picked the situation apart. He loved him and thought it was time to address the D...that was the big mistake...position over BPA. OJ was rated as a top6 to 8 pick and people want to point fingers....whatever go ahead.

Give me a draft list for the top50 from the last 5yrs and i you'll have my respect

Thanks. Appreciate this post.

I post a lot of opinions here and try not to go with consensus and be as independent and outside of the box as possible. And projecting players - and especially projecting teenagers years into the future - of course anyone is going to be wrong a bunch. And I've never said otherwise, and I always try to be accountable for things I've said that are wrong and give explanations for where my thought process might have been flawed if I think it was. But I'm pretty comfortable with my track record.

And it's absolutely pathetic when people who never take a stand on anything try to shit on people that do. Glad to hear someone else say that.