The Legacy of Ken Holland

[Reality Check]

I guess I spoke too soon. Ken Holland likes to talk about loyalty, but when a big salary is dangled in front of him and the opportunity to be a GM again is offered, he jumps ship.

Holland doesn't owe Detroit anything. Just as Yzerman didn't owe Detroit by sticking around ten years until he got a shot.

Holland is in the same boat as Joe Dumars. Some good, some bad...but at the end of the day both won championships

Would have been nice to win more but such is life.

 

[obey86]

I guess I spoke too soon. Ken Holland likes to talk about loyalty, but when a big salary is dangled in front of him and the opportunity to be a GM again is offered, he jumps ship.

He "jumped ship" after 36+ years lol.

 

[Oilers in NS]

This board has been a good example what negative fan base can be. We have lots of same negativity in here, but in 10-times smaller scale. Thank god I'm not Edmonton fan and reading HF Boards.

It turns pretty bad for sure. When we are winning (like in 2017), everyone is falling over each other. When we lose, it’s like the Civil War

 

[The Zermanator]

He did sign a contract extension very recently, if Datsyuk's going to get raked over the coals then it's a fair point to bring up.

 

[Ezekial]

no it isn't.

 

[The Zermanator]

no it isn't.

Try to use your words.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

The luster definitely came off Holland this decade. He inherited back-to-back champs in 1997 and 1998 and bought the 2002 team, but the 2008 team was completely his own. I'd say on the cusp of winning that 2008 cup, his reputation couldn't have been any higher, but it's definitely taken a major hit in light of some questionable trades, signings, and lack of meaningful trades/signings.

The Oilers are a hot mess outside of maybe 3 players. This is a great chance to restore some of his prestige.

 

[Ezekial]

Try to use your words.

Ken Holland leaving after signing an extension leaves the team with 0 extra baggage. If Chris Ilitch didn't announce it we wouldn't have even known it happened. With Datsyuk gone we were still on the hook for him as a player in every way except for his presence on the team.

Not even close to similar situations. But keep up your fight, buddy.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

 

[Frk It]

Ken Holland leaving after signing an extension leaves the team with 0 extra baggage. If Chris Ilitch didn't announce it we wouldn't have even known it happened. With Datsyuk gone we were still on the hook for him as a player in every way except for his presence on the team.

Not even close to similar situations. But keep up your fight, buddy.

A lot of people have said it's all about the principle though, and honoring your commitment.... blah blah, etc

 

[obey86]

A lot of people have said it's all about the principle though, and honoring your commitment.... blah blah, etc

If you can't see the difference....

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

A lot of people have said it's all about the principle though, and honoring your commitment.... blah blah, etc

This is a terrible apples and oranges argument since everyone knew Ken Holland was able to evaluate other offers anyway it wasn't a state secret. It would also be like if Datsyuk negotiated an exit where we weren't hurt financially and Barkov replaced him oh and Holland would have to lie about it the whole time and leak it early through a member of the media the Wings hate....

Good Lord. The Ilitch family has zero issue with this, it was all done above board as you would expect from a man of Holland's character and the guy we have known for 3 and a half decades. This is a fairly absurd mind bending stretch. But fine don't retire his number because that is the Datsyuk argument anyway.

 

[Frk It]

This is a terrible apples and oranges argument since everyone knew Ken Holland was able to evaluate other offers anyway it wasn't a state secret. It would also be like if Datsyuk negotiated an exit where we weren't hurt financially and Barkov replaced him oh and Holland would have to lie about it the whole time and leak it early through a member of the media the Wings hate....

Good Lord. The Ilitch family has zero issue with this, it was all done above board as you would expect from a man of Holland's character and the guy we have known for 3 and a half decades. This is a fairly absurd mind bending stretch. But fine don't retire his number because that is the Datsyuk argument anyway.

I wasn’t even someone who feels that way, just saying I have seen it said a bunch. I was never on that moral high horse. Things change, life happens.

 

[The Zermanator]

Ken Holland leaving after signing an extension leaves the team with 0 extra baggage. If Chris Ilitch didn't announce it we wouldn't have even known it happened. With Datsyuk gone we were still on the hook for him as a player in every way except for his presence on the team.

Not even close to similar situations. But keep up your fight, buddy.

Ooooh for an entire month! Boy that guy really killed the franchise for the dead cap they had on the books for 3 whole weeks...

That got sorted out, with the Wings in a better position mind you, at literally the first opportunity (the draft).

 

[The Zermanator]

This is a terrible apples and oranges argument since everyone knew Ken Holland was able to evaluate other offers anyway it wasn't a state secret. It would also be like if Datsyuk negotiated an exit where we weren't hurt financially and Barkov replaced him oh and Holland would have to lie about it the whole time and leak it early through a member of the media the Wings hate....

Good Lord. The Ilitch family has zero issue with this, it was all done above board as you would expect from a man of Holland's character and the guy we have known for 3 and a half decades. This is a fairly absurd mind bending stretch. But fine don't retire his number because that is the Datsyuk argument anyway.

He was able to evaluate other offers and ended up taking one mere weeks after signing the dotted line with Detroit. And that multi-year deal he just signed was an extension on the 1yr he already had remaining. He also departs weeks before the draft. The Lightning only lost an advisor prior to the 2019 draft, the Red Wings shuffled GMs. Much bigger upheaval on our end.

They weren't hurt financially by Datsyuk, he didn't get paid for the season he missed and he was 'replaced' by the addition of Hronek.

For the record I don't think Holland should take any heat and he did it the right way, I'm simply of the same mind as @Frk It that things change and life happens. Holland was ready to stay here but the minute he sniffed something he preferred he skipped town. Good for him. On the balance of things he's still given this franchise far more than he's taken. Same with Datsyuk.

If Datsyuk is going to get the 'oh you wanted to play in russia boohoo the wings paid you millions' then should Holland not face the same standard? 'Oh you still want to be a GM boohoo the wings paid you millions.' I disagree with either position but the double standard is silly.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

He was able to evaluate other offers and ended up taking one mere weeks after signing the dotted line with Detroit. And that multi-year deal he just signed was an extension on the 1yr he already had remaining. He also departs weeks before the draft. The Lightning only lost an advisor prior to the 2019 draft, the Red Wings shuffled GMs. Much bigger upheaval on our end.

They weren't hurt financially by Datsyuk, he didn't get paid for the season he missed and he was 'replaced' by the addition of Hronek.

For the record I don't think Holland should take any heat and he did it the right way, I'm simply of the same mind as @Frk It that things change and life happens. Holland was ready to stay here but the minute he sniffed something he preferred he skipped town. Good for him. On the balance of things he's still given this franchise far more than he's taken. Same with Datsyuk.

If Datsyuk is going to get the 'oh you wanted to play in russia boohoo the wings paid you millions' then should Holland not face the same standard? 'Oh you still want to be a GM boohoo the wings paid you millions.' I disagree with either position but the double standard is silly.

One was a player who pushed for a longer contract in his negotiation and HAS DOCUMENTED QUOTES/REPORTS about him wanting out of it within weeks. Not only that, he pushed for FIVE years in the negotiation and Holland talked him down to three. He said one year into a new deal "I don't give a damn, I'm gone at the end of this year" and only played the second year on his contract because Holland and the Wings threatened to toll his contract and not let him play hockey anywhere.

When it came to Holland, he signed his extension in April last year. When Steve Yzerman was still GM of the Lightning and hadn't stepped down yet. Steve, up to that point, appeared to be staying in Tampa for the duration of his deal. So Holland was fully intending to fulfill the terms of his extension. Then, when Stevie stepped down in the fall and he became an option for Ilitch and the Wings, they started chatting him up to bring him here. They pursued him and added him. When they added him as GM, a move had to be made with Holland.

And I know I've said it before and several others have... You can't use the fact that the Wings had a good GM in Ken Holland and they managed to avoid being hurt by a 7.5M bomb because Arizona is a joke franchise who took on a 7.5M cap hit in a trade to flop 4 spots in a draft to give Datsyuk a pass for his actions. For all Datsyuk knew or gave a damn about, the Wings would be stuck with his contract. And they got a pick out of the deal. What happens if Hronek is like 75% of 2nd round picks and completely flops? You can't use hindsight and the result of an action to defend the action. Datsyuk boned the Wings, he knew he boned the Wings (maybe not on the contract signing day, but he became aware of it pretty quickly (and definitely knew after year one when Holland and co threatened to toll his contract)

And Holland wasn't pounding on doors looking for a deal. Edmonton came and offered 3x3 (per some reports) and he said no. Edmonton made it a godfather offer of 5x5 and tons of control and he wanted to be a GM so he said yes.

Also, it isn't a double standard. One was a player who signed a contract that per the CBA stays on the cap and skipped town without the team having a replacement or a method to remediate the contract and the other was an executive who literally just had the team hire his replacement and was therefore given an opportunity to speak to other teams about jobs as a GM or given the opportunity to stay on as a senior VP. I'm sure Detroit would have loved to retain Holland as a hockey mind and if Edmonton came calling with a 2x2M deal to become their GM, he probably would have stayed here. Datsyuk willfully broke an existing contract. Essentially by their actions, the WINGS broke Holland's contract as GM by signing Yzerman. That's the difference. Holland clearly would have loved to remain as the Wings GM.

 

[Ezekial]

There is no double standard.

Holland replaced himself with Stevie Y or he'd still be our GM much to your chagrin.

Ken Holland would've been here for at least another year but everyone in Detroit wanted Stevie Y.

 

[ThankGord]

Holland has had a rough transition adjusting to the salary cap but I think he's starting to catch on, the last couple of years have been alright. Very happy to skip what remains of that transition and go straight to a more modern GM in Yzerman though. I'll be rooting for Kenny, hope he can build something half-way decent around McDavid and Draisaitl.

 

[The Zermanator]

One was a player who pushed for a longer contract in his negotiation and HAS DOCUMENTED QUOTES/REPORTS about him wanting out of it within weeks. Not only that, he pushed for FIVE years in the negotiation and Holland talked him down to three. He said one year into a new deal "I don't give a damn, I'm gone at the end of this year" and only played the second year on his contract because Holland and the Wings threatened to toll his contract and not let him play hockey anywhere.

When it came to Holland, he signed his extension in April last year. When Steve Yzerman was still GM of the Lightning and hadn't stepped down yet. Steve, up to that point, appeared to be staying in Tampa for the duration of his deal. So Holland was fully intending to fulfill the terms of his extension. Then, when Stevie stepped down in the fall and he became an option for Ilitch and the Wings, they started chatting him up to bring him here. They pursued him and added him. When they added him as GM, a move had to be made with Holland.

And I know I've said it before and several others have... You can't use the fact that the Wings had a good GM in Ken Holland and they managed to avoid being hurt by a 7.5M bomb because Arizona is a joke franchise who took on a 7.5M cap hit in a trade to flop 4 spots in a draft to give Datsyuk a pass for his actions. For all Datsyuk knew or gave a damn about, the Wings would be stuck with his contract. And they got a pick out of the deal. What happens if Hronek is like 75% of 2nd round picks and completely flops? You can't use hindsight and the result of an action to defend the action. Datsyuk boned the Wings, he knew he boned the Wings (maybe not on the contract signing day, but he became aware of it pretty quickly (and definitely knew after year one when Holland and co threatened to toll his contract)

And Holland wasn't pounding on doors looking for a deal. Edmonton came and offered 3x3 (per some reports) and he said no. Edmonton made it a godfather offer of 5x5 and tons of control and he wanted to be a GM so he said yes.

Also, it isn't a double standard. One was a player who signed a contract that per the CBA stays on the cap and skipped town without the team having a replacement or a method to remediate the contract and the other was an executive who literally just had the team hire his replacement and was therefore given an opportunity to speak to other teams about jobs as a GM or given the opportunity to stay on as a senior VP. I'm sure Detroit would have loved to retain Holland as a hockey mind and if Edmonton came calling with a 2x2M deal to become their GM, he probably would have stayed here. Datsyuk willfully broke an existing contract. Essentially by their actions, the WINGS broke Holland's contract as GM by signing Yzerman. That's the difference. Holland clearly would have loved to remain as the Wings GM.

No you're mistaken. Ken Holland signed an extension a few weeks ago, which was an extension on top of the year remaining on the deal you're talking about. How do rip Datsyuk for DOCUMENTED QUOTES/REPORTS of wanting to leave within weeks then excuse Holland for actually leaving within weeks?

They were able to move his contract at literally the 1st opportunity for a good return. Moving 4 spots back and gaining a 2nd. Almost the exact same good deal as the one that brought in Mantha and Bertuzzi that had happened a year or two before. It wasn't the albatross around the Wings neck you people are trying to pretend it was. Besides, he had 1 year left on a team that wasn't going anywhere anyway. Are you under the impression he would have cost them a Cup run if his cap hit had stayed?

There is no double standard.

Holland replaced himself with Stevie Y and then signed a new contract with Detroit and promptly skipped town or he'd still be our GM much to your chagrin.

Ken Holland would've been here for at least another year but everyone in Detroit wanted Stevie Y.

There, fixed that for you.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

No you're mistaken. Ken Holland signed an extension a few weeks ago, which was an extension on top of the year remaining on the deal you're talking about. How do rip Datsyuk for DOCUMENTED QUOTES/REPORTS of wanting to leave within weeks then excuse Holland for actually leaving within weeks?

They were able to move his contract at literally the 1st opportunity for a good return. Moving 4 spots back and gaining a 2nd. Almost the exact same good deal as the one that brought in Mantha and Bertuzzi that had happened a year or two before. It wasn't the albatross around the Wings neck you people are trying to pretend it was. Besides, he had 1 year left on a team that wasn't going anywhere anyway. Are you under the impression he would have cost them a Cup run if his cap hit had stayed?



There, fixed that for you.

Datsyuk had nothing to do with shipping his contract. That was Holland's good work and Arizona being flat out stupid. There was rumors that they'd have to attach AA to the deal to get rid of the money. And realistcally, if Chayka had any balls, they would have had to. The Wings were over a barrel on the value of the deal. Chayka got owned to high heaven in the deal because he wanted Chychrun bad. If he weren't a bad GM, the Wings would have had to pay dearly to move Datsyuk's contract if they wanted it gone.

What on earth are you talking about? Holland signed his two year extension in April 2018. How is that "a few weeks ago"? Ken Holland did not sign any new contract in April 2019. He just didn't. Why are you making up things that didn't happen to argue about?

 

[Ezekial]

There, fixed that for you.

Except you do realize Ken Holland had an out clause to become a GM, right? Datsyuk didn't have a Russia clause.

I'm not going to "rake KH over the coals" for replacing himself with a Wings legend at an opportune time and taking another job. I don't rake Datsyuk either though so maybe I'm not in this hypocritical demographic.

 

[The Zermanator]

Datsyuk had nothing to do with shipping his contract. That was Holland's good work and Arizona being flat out stupid. There was rumors that they'd have to attach AA to the deal to get rid of the money. And realistcally, if Chayka had any balls, they would have had to. The Wings were over a barrel on the value of the deal. Chayka got owned to high heaven in the deal because he wanted Chychrun bad. If he weren't a bad GM, the Wings would have had to pay dearly to move Datsyuk's contract if they wanted it gone.

What on earth are you talking about? Holland signed his two year extension in April 2018. How is that "a few weeks ago"? Ken Holland did not sign any new contract in April 2019. He just didn't. Why are you making up things that didn't happen to argue about?

Ken Holland isn’t going anywhere; signs extension with Red Wings

He signed a multi-year extension just a few weeks ago, length not disclosed so at least 2 years. That's what on earth I'm talking about.

I don't care what 'rumours' there were about moving Datsyuk's deal, there are rumours about everything in pro sports. The reality is they moved his contract and they did it pretty cheap, end of story.

And I'll ask again what having Datsyuk's cap hit would have endangered had it stayed on the books? We weren't going to be making the playoffs again, hell if we'd kept it maybe our 2017 pick would have been much better than Rasmussen. The only negative that stemmed from the whole situation were the Nielsen and Helm deals, which is on Holland.

 

[The Zermanator]

Except you do realize Ken Holland had an out clause to become a GM, right? Datsyuk didn't have a Russia clause.

Well that's when you have a little bit of understanding and grace, and treat loyal players like human beings in a familial environment, which is an image the Wings org has tried to cultivate.

On a personal level, Holland signing an extension then doing some hockey work and realizing how much he still wants to be GM and asking for a move isn't all that different from Datsyuk signing a deal and going on vacation and realizing he's ready to move on and enjoy his home and his family. The lambasting of his character and implication that he 'swindled' the Wings from the same fans who cheered him on when he was winning them Cups while dismissing a similar action from Holland is just too thick with hypocrisy to ignore.

There are cap implications with Datsyuk but as was demonstrated at the first possible opportunity in the offseason those were far from insurmountable. They should have moved his contract, thanked him for his service, and wished him the best in the future. Just not in a passive-aggressive jilted ex way which they did.

 

[Retire91]

Ken Holland isn’t going anywhere; signs extension with Red Wings

He signed a multi-year extension just a few weeks ago, length not disclosed so at least years. That's what on earth I'm talking about.

I don't care what 'rumours' there were about moving Datsyuk's deal, there are rumours about everything in pro sports. The reality is they moved his contract and they did it pretty cheap, end of story.

And I'll ask again what having Datsyuk's cap hit would have endangered had it stayed on the books? We weren't going to be making the playoffs again, hell if we'd kept it maybe our 2017 pick would have been much better than Rasmussen. The only negative that stemmed from the whole situation were the Nielsen and Helm deals, which is on Holland.

It's literally not possible for me to agree with you more, I was already on the Holland hate bandwagon early and hard. Giving up a pick just to move 1 year of a contract in a season you probably won't even make the playoffs to sign mediocrity for long term. That move is such a quintessential Holland 2009-2017 move and embodies everything that was wrong with the management of the team during that era.

I am not arguing with the Holland defenders in terms of "you are wrong I am right" just reserving the right to my own opinion (and frequent venting). Holland is and always will be a red wing legend. His track record for the last 10 years is abysmal. Both are true. He is not being "unfairly criticized" he earned that criticism. He signed indefensible contracts that made the team out to be a country club of veterans, stop-gap solutions, and rentals. And he did it for years and years when to even to the most casual hockey fan the window was closed. The rebuild is 5-6 years behind schedule and that is directly on him.

I for one am ecstatic that Holland no longer has anything to do with the wings outside of being an alumni. These are the two greatest news stories for wings fans in the last 10 years. Yzerman in, Holland officially and completely out.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ken Holland isn’t going anywhere; signs extension with Red Wings

He signed a multi-year extension just a few weeks ago, length not disclosed so at least years. That's what on earth I'm talking about.

I don't care what 'rumours' there were about moving Datsyuk's deal, there are rumours about everything in pro sports. The reality is they moved his contract and they did it pretty cheap, end of story.

And I'll ask again what having Datsyuk's cap hit would have endangered had it stayed on the books? We weren't going to be making the playoffs again, hell if we'd kept it maybe our 2017 pick would have been much better than Rasmussen. The only negative that stemmed from the whole situation were the Nielsen and Helm deals, which is on Holland.

With an out clause and again we will not retire his number and bestow upon him the highest honor in the organization.

He was allowed to interview for other jobs in this role. That was known the second he accepted. He got an offer from one of the four franchises he would likely accept.

In any event Ken Holland's legacy is as the greatest GM in franchise history. He is more important than maybe the 10th most important player in franchise history. But we can start another Datsyuk thread where we debate that.

Just know the Ilitch family wasn't betrayed here or backdoored in any fashion. This is one of the acceptable outcomes discussed when he stepped aside for Stevie.