Confirmed with Link: The Leafs have hired Jacques Lemaire as Special Assignment Coach.

[Ovate]

Riddle me this, can you have fantastic goaltending and sub par possession and still do well ... Say like Montreal?

Seems then that possession matters very little... particularly for teams that don't play for it. Goaltending is the main thing a team should strive to improve. Blocking shots and all that.

Curiously, a defensive minded system that Lemaire and Lou are known for. Go figure.

Goaltending varies a lot from season to season. If Price goes back to career average levels, Montreal is just a decent team. Even if Price sustains .93%, Montreal still isn't a contender.

Plus, it's much harder to upgrade goaltending. There are only a handful of great starters in the league, and they're not on the market. The only other option is growing your own, which is unpredictable, so trying to build a contender through goaltending is likely a waste of time.

 

[X66]

Riddle me this, can you have fantastic goaltending and sub par possession and still do well ... Say like Montreal?

Seems then that possession matters very little... particularly for teams that don't play for it. Goaltending is the main thing a team should strive to improve. Blocking shots and all that.

Curiously, a defensive minded system that Lemaire and Lou are known for. Go figure.

No one should argue that possession is the only thing you need, but using Montreal as the only example is a poor one.

Teams that have won the cup since they started tracking these stats...

08: Detroit, #1 possession team, goaltender was Osgood/Hasek
09: Penguins, 13th best possession team, goaltender Fleury
10: Blackhawks, #1 possession team, goaltender Niemi
11: Bruins, 14th best possession team, goaltender Thomas
12: Kings, 4th best possession team, goaltender Quick
13: Blackhawks, 2nd best possession team, goaltender Crawford
14: Kings, #1 possession team, goaltender Quick
15: Blackhawks, 7th best possession team, goaltender Crawford

There is only one Vezina winner on that entire list, 6 of the 8 teams that won the cup had elite possession teams, and the other two had possession stats over 50%.

Goaltending is important, very important, but so is strong possession play. No team has ever won the cup with a possession stat under 50%, but teams have won with goaltenders that aren't elite.

The better possession team you are, the less chances your giving up(helping goaltenders) and the more chances you're generating.

 

[Pookie]

If the Leafs were the Corsi champs they would make the playoffs. Unless Reimer and Bernier put up 0.850 save percentages.

Like LA did last year?

 

[Pookie]

No one should argue that possession is the only thing you need, but using Montreal as the only example is a poor one.

Teams that have won the cup since they started tracking these stats...

08: Detroit, #1 possession team, goaltender was Osgood/Hasek
09: Penguins, 13th best possession team, goaltender Fleury
10: Blackhawks, #1 possession team, goaltender Niemi
11: Bruins, 14th best possession team, goaltender Thomas
12: Kings, 4th best possession team, goaltender Quick
13: Blackhawks, 2nd best possession team, goaltender Crawford
14: Kings, #1 possession team, goaltender Quick
15: Blackhawks, 7th best possession team, goaltender Crawford

There is only one Vezina winner on that entire list, 6 of the 8 teams that won the cup had elite possession teams, and the other two had possession stats over 50%.

Goaltending is important, very important, but so is strong possession play. No team has ever won the cup with a possession stat under 50%, but teams have won with goaltenders that aren't elite.

The better possession team you are, the less chances your giving up(helping goaltenders) and the more chances you're generating.

I will say that I appreciate the energy and effort you took to express your view.

At risk of sounding disrespectful, this debate about possession won't be solved by either you or I. There are many ways to play this game and aiming for a possession system may work for some and not for others. Teams find success with and without a focus on it.

As a stat it is more "different" than it is "advanced." I would consider it but I wouldn't go betting mortgages on it.

Cheers.

 

[burpsalot]

-will watch all games and offer opinions, but all coaching decisions to come from Babcock
-watched Leafs a little last year... but reluctant to comment on individual players since he didn't see practices
-will work with Marlies also (expressed enthusiasm at this prospect)
-Does not expect to go on ice, so no direct interaction with players unless specifically asked by Babcock
-expects Lou and Babcock to work well together
-was surprised Lou took leaf job, but after thinking about it, it made sense
-will Lemaire have any interaction with Lou? probably some
-says he's done being behind the bench in any capacity, hates the travelling.
-Loves coaching, problem-solving, working with players, but again emphasised his dislike of travel.
-Thinks that the coaching staff that has been assembled will find a way to make Leafs successful, but patience needed.

Lemaire mentioned patience is needed, contradicts mentalists theories again.


Sounds a little like I was saying last week,

I doubt Lemaire will be implementing his coaching techniques from his home in Florida too much. As a sounding board & as a second opinion he will be useful to Babcock & Keefe, but I don't think anyone should be looking at him as a "coach" or even "assistant coach" by the normal definition.

 

[Menzinger]

Riddle me this, can you have fantastic goaltending and sub par possession and still do well ... Say like Montreal?

Seems then that possession matters very little... particularly for teams that don't play for it. Goaltending is the main thing a team should strive to improve. Blocking shots and all that.

Curiously, a defensive minded system that Lemaire and Lou are known for. Go figure.

Price has dragged the Habs to the playoffs a couple times- I hardly call that doing well (better than the Leafs mind you).

Babcock is still the one controlling the direction of the team's systems - and he plays a tight possession centric game.

Possession is something that is necessary but not sufficient for ultimate team success. Any coach who isn't planning to try and to control the puck for most of the game should be fired immediately. It seems absurd not to.

Edit: weird phone autocorrects

 

[Pookie]

Price has dragged the Habs to the playoffs a couple times- I hardly call that doing well (better Han the Leafs mind you).

Babcock is still the one control his the direction of the team's systems - and he plays a tight possession centric game.

Possession is something that is necessary but not sufficient for ultimate team success. Any coach who isn't planning to try and to control the puck for most of the game should be fired immediately. It seems absurd not to.

And yet this team has done well through the years with average possession and a 1-3-1 style.

 

[93LEAFS]

Good points. Dubas may be something special, or he may be another J. P. Ricciardi. Remember when he was hired by the Jays with the Wonderkid tag. For all the articulate talk. He fizzed and disappointed.

I assume Dubas will not have free run in the Leafs front office this season with Lou and Babcock here. Funny you mentioned coffee. If Dubas is here to oversee the Marlies, and fix the fax machine.

He should embrace it. He is in his place now. Learn, soak it up, do as he is told. And then we will see if he earns Lamorello's trust, for him to one day maybe be a GM candidate.

One thing we know now, by Shanahan's and his own comments. He still has a lot to learn.

Ricciardi was our 2nd choice actually. The wunderkid was actually Paul Depodesta, who eventually became the Dodgers gm, and is now a vice-president with the Mets. I like Dubas because he seems foreword thinking and it would be stupid for the leafs to completely ignore advance analytics. Not only because it could be valuable for us, but because even if they think its useless you can understand what teams who use it value. In a cap world the leafs need to use their money to hire the top management team but also bring in a top scouting department, training staff and now analytical department.

I agree, hopefully Dubas works out and follows Lou. The big thing is this its much easier to be successful if a working system has been created rather then rebuild from scratch.

 

[Pyromaniac3]

And yet this team has done well through the years with average possession and a 1-3-1 style.

The coach that implemented that system was out in 3rd round in his first season. Then proceeded to miss the playoffs for the next 2 seasons.
Cooper with his ultra aggressive possession hockey almost beat Chicago for the Cup.

 

[93LEAFS]

And yet this team has done well through the years with average possession and a 1-3-1 style.

Wasn't Boucher the coach when they did this?

 

[Nithoniniel]

And yet this team has done well through the years with average possession and a 1-3-1 style.

Seriously, Pookie, this is like the fifth time you bring this up. To the same answers. Tampa when they did use 1-3-1 at all, which was just spot duty really, was not a successful team. They missed 2 out of 3 and stumbled their way to the third round once. The Tampa that has been successful doesn't use 1-3-1 and is a good possession team.

How many times will you reuse an argument you should know is faulty by now?

 

[Pookie]

Seriously, Pookie, this is like the fifth time you bring this up. To the same answers. Tampa when they did use 1-3-1 at all, which was just spot duty really, was not a successful team. They missed 2 out of 3 and stumbled their way to the third round once. The Tampa that has been successful doesn't use 1-3-1 and is a good possession team.

How many times will you reuse an argument you should know is faulty by now?

Except when you say spotty use that doesn't exactly fly with the reality. Did you listen to the clip?

The announcer references shades of the 2009-2010 season and playoffs vs Washington. As you say, they stumbled to the 3rd round as if that is something to be dismissed. It worked as a system.

I use the example because many teams play a 1-3-1 or as the Leafs tried "5 a zone" or some other system but without game day archives I am at a loss to show you. This one shows (painfully) how it is set up.

Tampa has had decent possession but not spectacular. 7 yr average is something like 12th overall. Middle of the pack. Of course, neither I or the possession guys can say if 12th overall has any statistical significance over say 8th overall or 16th.

Fun stat but this is as straightforward as it gets. If 30 teams all try to play this way, those on the bottom will do something else because they are on the bottom and it isn't working for them.

Being a good possession team only matters to teams that think being a good possession team matters. Fortunately, there are many ways to play this game and just because something can now be measured and ranked doesn't mean it is relevant to all or even has an inherent predictive capability. LA probably would have traded their league leading CF% last year for a playoff ticket.

 

[senor martinez]

Price has dragged the Habs to the playoffs a couple times- I hardly call that doing well (better than the Leafs mind you).

Babcock is still the one controlling the direction of the team's systems - and he plays a tight possession centric game.

Possession is something that is necessary but not sufficient for ultimate team success. Any coach who isn't planning to try and to control the puck for most of the game should be fired immediately. It seems absurd not to.

Edit: weird phone autocorrects

No no no no no no no no. There are other philosophies and approaches to the game. Of course there are. A team can dump the puck and chase those pucks if the players are suitable of doing just that. A team can keep the puck a long periods of time behind its own net and just freeze the whole game up (a real passive minded game) if it's suitable for its players again. Etc etc, it's just so much going on in the game. Us coaches know this and people should realize that it takes a long time to educate yourself as a coach. Babcock can and surely will do anything he wants with this team and squad of players. If they are suitable of doing something else, he will do it. There are so many ways.

 

[Pookie]

The coach that implemented that system was out in 3rd round in his first season. Then proceeded to miss the playoffs for the next 2 seasons.
Cooper with his ultra aggressive possession hockey almost beat Chicago for the Cup.

And LA with their league leading CF% missed the playoffs.

As for Tampa, Roloson was their starter in 2010-2011 and posted a .912 save percentage. Garon took over in 2011-12 and had a .901… oh and LeCavalier missed about 20 games that year due to injury. I'd say those could be contributing factors, n'est pas?

Cooper's team also enjoyed a starter with a .916 save percentage. Which suggests that goaltending is a pretty important variable. Stopping pucks or stopping shots. You can do that by keeping the puck away from other teams… or you could do it like Minnesota (Lemaire) and NJ (Lou) and stifle chances before they start by clogging lanes, slowing down the play and basically getting in the way.

I think you'll see the 1-3-1 or some other version of a "Trap" in play here in Toronto.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Except when you say spotty use that doesn't exactly fly with the reality. Did you listen to the clip?

The announcer references shades of the 2009-2010 season and playoffs vs Washington. As you say, they stumbled to the 3rd round as if that is something to be dismissed. It worked as a system.

I use the example because many teams play a 1-3-1 or as the Leafs tried "5 a zone" or some other system but without game day archives I am at a loss to show you. This one shows (painfully) how it is set up.

Tampa has had decent possession but not spectacular. 7 yr average is something like 12th overall. Middle of the pack. Of course, neither I or the possession guys can say if 12th overall has any statistical significance over say 8th overall or 16th.

Fun stat but this is as straightforward as it gets. If 30 teams all try to play this way, those on the bottom will do something else because they are on the bottom and it isn't working for them.

Being a good possession team only matters to teams that think being a good possession team matters. Fortunately, there are many ways to play this game and just because something can now be measured and ranked doesn't mean it is relevant to all or even has an inherent predictive capability. LA probably would have traded their league leading CF% last year for a playoff ticket.

Spotty use doesn't mean they never used it before, you know. It's just not the system the usually play with. This has been repeated over and over by the Tampa fan base among others.

Yes, Tampa has been a slightly above average team possession-wise over the last 7 years. They have also been a slightly above average team in general over the last 7 years. What are you trying to prove here?

You talk about them as the successful team, but their success mostly correlates with high possession.

Finally, I don't get your view of possession. Possession is an integral part of the game, not a tactic. The bolded part of your post makes about as much sense "Defense only matters to teams that think being a good defensive team matters".

If you ignore possession, you severely limit your chances of success. If you ignore defense, you severely limit your chances of success. If you ignore offense, you severely limit your chances of success.

The difference being that statistically, possession is a more important piece individually than the other two.

 

[Pookie]

Spotty use doesn't mean they never used it before, you know. It's just not the system the usually play with. This has been repeated over and over by the Tampa fan base among others.

Yes, Tampa has been a slightly above average team possession-wise over the last 7 years. They have also been a slightly above average team in general over the last 7 years. What are you trying to prove here?

You talk about them as the successful team, but their success mostly correlates with high possession.

See above about goaltending and injury. Mostly goaltending.

Finally, I don't get your view of possession. Possession is an integral part of the game, not a tactic. The bolded part of your post makes about as much sense "Defense only matters to teams that think being a good defensive team matters".

If you ignore possession, you severely limit your chances of success. If you ignore defense, you severely limit your chances of success. If you ignore offense, you severely limit your chances of success.

The difference being that statistically, possession is a more important piece individually than the other two.

Just because something can be measured and ranked doesn't make it important. The statement of that ignoring possession severely limits your chances of success is just wrong. Plenty of examples of teams that don't have high possession numbers and get far in the playoffs and teams (eg LA) that keep the puck and don't achieve squat.

Possession as a metric is new to hockey but it isn't new to sports like soccer. There is a debate there about possession as well. Keep the ball, increase your chances to score and limit theirs.

All well and good but in the end, counter attacking football has proven effective as well. Let the team possess the ball in their half, force a turnover and rely on a strong shooting percentage to convert. Or let them come up but park the bus in front of your goal with 10 men behind the ball. Clogging up passing/shooting lanes and keeping it to the outside.

Sound familiar?

It's not the holy grail and never will be. Good teams will generally have the puck more than poor teams. Poor teams will seek to neutralize that advantage.

It tends to be a product of a good team, not a strategy you can employ with a bad one. Eg. Hey Leafs, you need to play more like Chicago so go out and possess the puck more. Vs if we have players like chicago who perform we can start to expect results like Chicago.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I wonder What's next

 

[Mess]

i wonder what's next

 

[Duke Silver]

And LA with their league leading CF% missed the playoffs.

As for Tampa, Roloson was their starter in 2010-2011 and posted a .912 save percentage. Garon took over in 2011-12 and had a .901… oh and LeCavalier missed about 20 games that year due to injury. I'd say those could be contributing factors, n'est pas?

Cooper's team also enjoyed a starter with a .916 save percentage. Which suggests that goaltending is a pretty important variable. Stopping pucks or stopping shots. You can do that by keeping the puck away from other teams… or you could do it like Minnesota (Lemaire) and NJ (Lou) and stifle chances before they start by clogging lanes, slowing down the play and basically getting in the way.

I think you'll see the 1-3-1 or some other version of a "Trap" in play here in Toronto.

LA was fourth in CF% and missed the playoffs by two points because they went 3-15 in the shootout.

 

[dimi78]

Riddle me this, can you have fantastic goaltending and sub par possession and still do well ... Say like Montreal?

Seems then that possession matters very little... particularly for teams that don't play for it. Goaltending is the main thing a team should strive to improve. Blocking shots and all that.

Curiously, a defensive minded system that Lemaire and Lou are known for. Go figure.

Goaltending is the lone position in hockey that if you don't have it doesn't matter what you have in front your going nowhere. Same when it comes to the development of a young team. You won't be grooming a young team until you get good goaltending. See Edmonton and all the excitement they have right now with McDavid at the end of this coming season until they fix there goaltending they'll still be picking in the Lottery.

Everything you do as an organization starts with the goaltending position however
Possession and being a strong puck possession team helps alleviate the goaltending position to the point is when you become a contender as a team. The better the possession team your are and compound that with really good goaltending that's how you become a cup contender which is the difference in why Montreal hasn't been considered a contender but a team that has overachieved. They're hopes to winning anything begins and ends with Price. If he's not the best player in any given game not only do they loose the game they don't have some success like your pointing out they're a lottery picking team like they were after the season when Price wasn't the best goalie in the league that lead to them drafting Alex Galchenyuk 3rd overall.

I've post this before and here it is again from what we've been told at ridiculous nausea from media and folks a like on this forum that defense and defensive system is what winning teams in the NHL are about. This Stanley cup winning coach who had what was viewed the best defensive team in the NHL completely contradict it and flat out says what Defense is in the NHL today.

"The big thing in today’s game is you have to be able forecheck and backcheck, and you have to have the puck," Sutter said over the weekend (h/t Ryan Lambert). "You can’t give the puck up. We don’t play in our zone, so there’s not much defending."

So, Sutter would seem to be an authority on the topic: Don't mistake dominance for "defensive responsibility" or physicality. Having the puck is the most important part of the game.

"The game’s changed. They think there’s defending in today’s game. Nah, it’s how much you have the puck. Teams that play around in their own zone (say) they’re defending but they’re generally getting scored on or taking face-offs and they need a goalie to stand on his head if that’s the way they play,†said Sutter

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/sto...ter-quotes-corsi-for-definition-sidney-crosby

This is what Lou, Lamaire had going for them in the past that lead to being strong defence which was a dominant puck possession game back stopped by above average goaltending.

Gretzky is something like +1000 in his career and he wasn't no stud on defense because when he played his line was always playing in the offensive zone by means of his genius puck possession game.

What's the goal here. To be somewhat successful like Montreal or win the cup?

If it's cup the possession game needs to be priority #1 team wise in structure if you want to be

(A)
A good defensive team

(B) A legitimate contender.

Other wise your in complete reliance on goaltending.

The thing is that many don't get on top of everything is that there's different ways of being a strong puck possession team. The cycle isn't based solely on size grinding the wall like we've been preached in Canada from Don Cherry for way too long. Speed & skill can be just as effective and the added bonus much more entertaining than grinding the game on the wall.

 

[Woll Smoth]

And yet this team has done well through the years with average possession and a 1-3-1 style.

What came of this?

Was TB forced to go for the puck? Or did the Flyers have to advance the puck?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

This hiring is a joke

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

This hiring is a joke

Are you saying that it is nepotism that got him the job?

 

[Cor]

Why is it a joke?

Plenty of former players become Scouts.

The Ducks hired Todd Marchant as a scout when he retired, and now, just 5 years after retiring, is their Director of Player Development.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Are you saying that it is nepotism that got him the job?

BINGO, he got the job for ONE reason it isn't because he is qualified, it isn't because he earned it, it is SOLEY because of who he is related to and everybody knows it.

If we are just handing out scouting jobs then at least give it to someone that was actually GOOD,